The two go hand in hand. If a quest is found to not be worthy (credible) of the five stars the early reviewers have awarded it, then it is likely to suffer a backlash of low ratings as opposed to fairer ones. This of course will lower its statistical rating.
That's just a theory and certainly not an sort of fact to always happen. Quests will be rated however the players deem fit to rate them. Arguing that players will intentionally create a backlash if they feel a quest was rating too high by others is just a fallacy. That's not something set in stone, so appealing to the probability of it doesn't make it an end-all result.
I alone already break that theory. I don't really read past reviews when I write my own on other peoples' quests.
You don't get it though cipher. How many times did I have to explain the same thing over and over?
And the thing is, you still haven't grasped it! The adjusted ratings system is there to protect from trolls of both the one star and five star variety.
I did have quite many points as to why your quest was average. I was nice to you, gave you fives to help/be supportive. Then you called me out, so I decided I'll just be honest from now on. You had floating buildings, barrels, crates. Lack of details, things does simple not look good. And the story/dialogue wasn't even worth mentioning in the feedback imo.
Still have the notes? I have them. So feel free to post them publicly if you so wish
I'd actually be happy to post them publicly, so that other users could compare them to my actual quests. I'm willing to bet that by "calling you out" you meant when I pointed out you made the Best list with just 30 plays. It wasn't intended to be negative toward you, but against the rating system itself. Now, I could have called you out a while back, when I saw that you had rated a certain exploit five stars, but I decided not to name and shame you. I have nothing against you personally, but I suspected your three stars had some ulterior motive, and you have proven my hypothesis correct. Thank you.
I was nice before. And gave you fives, and now you called me out? I'm not angry with you or anything. But, I thought you deserved a chance. Now I shall play through your quests and I shall give you feedback, followed by my -honest- opinion. The fives I gave you before, were not honest. I as I said, intended to be nice.
This is copypasted from my notepad.
Part 1
Your design and idea of this map is innovative, but executed poorly. The dialogue is poorly written, and the story shows promise, but fails to deliver.
You have a lack of details in the "building" area, and quite frankly dull enemies. - Now below is the feedback of Part 1.
First area
Your door sticks out/doesn't fit the area.
You have one shelf that is copypasted/cloned in the entire room.
The decor just feels off and very crowded, or hastily put together.
Chests floating slightly
No music or ambient that I could hear.
Second area
The well is floating slightly
The area could use a lot more detail, it feels really scarce.
The Trees seem to be cloned as well without rotation of any kind.
A house is floating slightly
Near the horses you have a wooden, small building that is floating as well.
No music or ambient yet again.
Ruined building is floating slightly.
The large NPCs block sight, especially in combat.
The orc camp is lacking in detail, you need to fill it up. Look more lively.
I would deem part 1 average in it's current shape. 3/5
- Part 2 of your campaign
Wall is flickering
I found crates and a tent-ish detail floating as well. (Next to one another)
And imo, the spiral looks out of place. It has nothing holding it up, and looks like something thrown together.
Noticed some random flickering here and there.
While your Part 1 was quite interesting with its concept this is a hack n' slash that feels quite repetative, and unpolished.
The mob placements with knockdown feels, just off. It's enough to fight on platforms, but then have mobs iwth knockback added to that? This will get you downrates from people. (Not me.)
The story lorebreaking(I will still not downrate it for that)
The story from part one and two are severaly lacking any depth that -I- would like to see from a campaign.
Final rating 3/5 average
There you go. Hope you're happy.
There's his notes on my quests. If anyone would like to play them to see if there are in fact floating buildings, or if there is really no music, please, go ahead. If you want to one, two, or three star them for any personal reasons, go ahead. I no longer care about their adjusted ratings because their time on the list has expired.
That's just a theory and certainly not an sort of fact to always happen. Quests will be rated however the players deem fit to rate them. Arguing that players will intentionally create a backlash if they feel a quest was rating too high by others is just a fallacy. That's not something set in stone, so appealing to the probability of it doesn't make it an end-all result.
I alone already break that theory. I don't really read past reviews when I write my own on other peoples' quests.
No actually you prove my theory. You rate five stars to pre-emptively counter the '1 star trolls' and yet don't think that players will have a similar mind-set and award one star to counter your dishonesty.
Amusing irony there.
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lolsorhandMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 981Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
Oh Wu, It was an actual opinion - And good! Now people can read and do actually compare them, though I'm not sure what/if you have fixed anything.
Oh Wu, It was an actual opinion - And good! Now people can read and do actually compare them, though I'm not sure what/if you have fixed anything.
I fixed MOST of the flicker on the walls, and added a campfire halfway up the ramp in Zigby's First Strike before I republished the quests. Some of your points are indeed valid, and I do value your legitimate feedback. I have no hard feelings toward you, and apologize if you feel I was calling you out. I was just trying to make a point about how the adjusted rating system's bonus percentage of the average rating per plays doesn't really matter. However, I must refute the two points mentioned above. I saw no buildings or details floating when I tested the quests live, and the music worked fine and dandy.
I only give 4 or 5 star ratings but I don't think I give fake ratings. If I feel a quest is short I simply don't rate and will pm why. When I do rate I never base it on my own opinion of a story. If everyone did the same, everyone would be happy.
Once a quest is being played by players then the votes will even out.
Once a quest is being played by players then the votes will even out.
Indeed, but a HUGE problem for MOST Foundry authors is that their quest never does get played by players. Players basically stick to the Best list, and like the top twenty quests on the New list. Once you scroll down so far on the New list you start to see quests that have only been played by five to ten Foundry authors for Review Trades. So, for a lot of Foundry authors, it doesn't even out. Then there's the issue of trolling. I'm glad my quests are actually not on the list now, so I don't have to really give a **** about ratings anymore.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If I review an author's quest either from the official forums here, from Scribe's Enclave, or within my guild, I will always give them a 5 star rating if they're not a featured/spotlighted quest and not near the top of the best tab. It's not because I think their quest is truly a 5 star piece of work. It's because the rating system is broken and I'm doing all I can to support the underdogs here to get their quest attention.
And that's why, not for the reason you place in my mouth.
My dishonesty? Interesting. I give 5 stars to support the community and you call my reviews dishonest. Dishonesty is being bribed to give those 5 stars. Dishonesty is 1 star retribution ratings. Dishonesty is not believing in the reason for giving that rating. I believe in giving every author here 5 stars. I believe in supporting this community.
I done replying to you karitr. I hold no ill will towards you, but you continue to argue and insult me. No thanks.
Indeed, but a HUGE problem for MOST Foundry authors is that their quest never does get played by players. Players basically stick to the Best list, and like the top twenty quests on the New list. Once you scroll down so far on the New list you start to see quests that have only been played by five to ten Foundry authors for Review Trades. So, for a lot of Foundry authors, it doesn't even out. Then there's the issue of trolling. I'm glad my quests are actually not on the list now, so I don't have to really give a **** about ratings anymore.
I agree, but it's not the fault of the rating system. It is the search options and loot problems. I don't think there is much trolling. Maybe some. I just think there are many idiots that can't get it into there head that we have no control over loot.
But when all the talk is about ratings it takes the emphasis away from the real issue. We know that they are working on the search problems and time will tell but now it's time for the loot issues to be addressed.
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cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Indeed, but a HUGE problem for MOST Foundry authors is that their quest never does get played by players. Players basically stick to the Best list, and like the top twenty quests on the New list.
QFT. And that's the a huge factor in why the rating system is broken. It favors plays above all else.
So even those like lolsorhand did a ton of review trading to get plays.
Once you scroll down so far on the New list you start to see quests that have only been played by five to ten Foundry authors for Review Trades. So, for a lot of Foundry authors, it doesn't even out.
But this isn't a problem with the rating system, its a problem with the catalogue and lists system.
I'll give you that. I would agree to call it a broken listing system instead of a rating system. I sort of lump it all together as one thing since the "adjusted rating" ranks how high that goes in the list too. Just keep in mind that they both work together.
All in all I've disliked the catalog system/UI itself more than the rating system. It's annoying to search for things. It also bugs out for quests' background images and give the wrong ones. It sometimes gives the entirely wrong set of reviews for some quest until you click it again. One time I found it gave all of these reviews in German for my own quest, and hundreds of them. Was funny.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The entire campaign can be found here:NWS-DQS27OINC
Individual quests:
1. Heeding the Call - NW-DMJCDZ5XJ
2. Bored of the Rings - NW-DFWE3XR6W
3. Draconian Ways - NW-DUNZEJG2J
4. When All is Said and Done... - Look at the picture
Perhaps you "don't get it" instead? (your words, not mine). Here's why I rate five stars for authors on the forums...
And that's why, not for the reason you place in my mouth.
My dishonesty? Interesting. I give 5 stars to support the community and you call my reviews dishonest. Dishonesty is being bribed to give those 5 stars. Dishonesty is 1 star retribution ratings. Dishonesty is not believing in the reason for giving that rating. I believe in giving every author here 5 stars. I believe in supporting this community.
I done replying to you karitr. I hold no ill will towards you, but you continue to argue and insult me. No thanks.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you indirectly. You said in a reply to me
"I feel that if an author cares enough to be involved with the community at this level they deserve a fighting chance against troll ratings, exploit quests, and a ratings system that favors raw play counts and being at the top of tabs over anything else"
Those are your words, not mine.
You, along with many authors, admit to giving average quests the very best ratings whether they are deserved or not. I've acknowledged this is done out of (in my opinion) misguided kindness, but it doesn't make it any less dishonest.
I have not insulted you. I was quite happy to talk in general terms, but you went to great detail in several posts to explain how you rated quests and why. If you didn't want that to be commented on then perhaps you should have done the same and just spoken in general terms.
My dishonesty? Interesting. I give 5 stars to support the community and you call my reviews dishonest. Dishonesty is being bribed to give those 5 stars. Dishonesty is 1 star retribution ratings. Dishonesty is not believing in the reason for giving that rating. I believe in giving every author here 5 stars. I believe in supporting this community.
Just a quick note here... Sorry for clipping your post.
IMHO giving a 5* rating when you do not feel it is actually worth a 5* rating is being dishonest.
edit:
And by that I mean if you feel that the quest has flaws and errors etc and still 5* it that seems to be dishonest. Would you give an authors quest who has never post here a 5* to support them also?
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
So someone from here has gone to another site and pretended to be from here?
Pretended to be themselves?
Or someone else?
And what would they gain from doing this?
All The Best
Someone from here registered on a popular web forum that has a Neverwinter section using the name of someone from here and pretended to be the person from here. They made a number of posts there designed to make the person here look bad, including outright lying (saying the person here offered AD for 5 star votes, which the person here never did. Then saying the person here didn't pay up when these AD that weren't offered weren't delivered). They also made a number of alts on that forum using npc names from the person here's quests to join in the forums there.
As this is a popular web forum, people there got riled up by the imposter and started having repercussions for the real person in Neverwinter Online:
"I simply played his foundry mission, selected report for violations, and linked Cryptic to the original post. Figure that may do something to him ingame."
"and then refuses to pay people. So trash his stuff."
"Will edit with the details of the original thread, but please, downvote [bad word removed by me] everything he makes."
The real person isn't a member of this other forum, and didn't catch it until too late.
Someone from here registered on a popular web forum that has a Neverwinter section using the name of someone from here and pretended to be the person from here. They made a number of posts there designed to make the person here look bad, including outright lying (saying the person here offered AD for 5 star votes, which the person here never did. Then saying the person here didn't pay up when these AD that weren't offered weren't delivered). They also made a number of alts on that forum using npc names from the person here's quests to join in the forums there.
As this is a popular web forum, people there got riled up by the imposter and started having repercussions for the real person in Neverwinter Online:
"I simply played his foundry mission, selected report for violations, and linked Cryptic to the original post. Figure that may do something to him ingame."
"and then refuses to pay people. So trash his stuff."
The real person isn't a member of this other forum, and didn't catch it until too late.
What? .... I am stunned! I hope they were banned. I don't even want to know who it was.
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cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What? .... I am stunned! I hope they were banned. I don't even want to know who it was.
Well, there's no way to be 100% sure who did it, but they were definitely a member of the Foundry forum as they included pictures of the quests posted by the real person here in these forums. Since Foundry forum posters are almost entirely Foundry authors, with only a couple posters being players not authors (and those player readers not posting during the time of this), the likelihood it was another Foundry author as the imposter is pretty much guaranteed.
So yes, there are Foundry authors who are willing to sabotage others. I was able to narrow the imposter down to a few people. I won't name them but nothing ever happened to them here.
Someone from here registered on a popular web forum that has a Neverwinter section using the name of someone from here and pretended to be the person from here. They made a number of posts there designed to make the person here look bad, including outright lying (saying the person here offered AD for 5 star votes, which the person here never did. Then saying the person here didn't pay up when these AD that weren't offered weren't delivered). They also made a number of alts on that forum using npc names from the person here's quests to join in the forums there.
As this is a popular web forum, people there got riled up by the imposter and started having repercussions for the real person in Neverwinter Online:
"I simply played his foundry mission, selected report for violations, and linked Cryptic to the original post. Figure that may do something to him ingame."
"and then refuses to pay people. So trash his stuff."
The real person isn't a member of this other forum, and didn't catch it until too late.
Wow talking about making it personal. Just Wow. I guess there will always be those types.
Edit:
Wasn't there someone here offering AD or maybe zen for 5* ratings?
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
Comments
That's just a theory and certainly not an sort of fact to always happen. Quests will be rated however the players deem fit to rate them. Arguing that players will intentionally create a backlash if they feel a quest was rating too high by others is just a fallacy. That's not something set in stone, so appealing to the probability of it doesn't make it an end-all result.
I alone already break that theory. I don't really read past reviews when I write my own on other peoples' quests.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
And the thing is, you still haven't grasped it! The adjusted ratings system is there to protect from trolls of both the one star and five star variety.
I'd actually be happy to post them publicly, so that other users could compare them to my actual quests. I'm willing to bet that by "calling you out" you meant when I pointed out you made the Best list with just 30 plays. It wasn't intended to be negative toward you, but against the rating system itself. Now, I could have called you out a while back, when I saw that you had rated a certain exploit five stars, but I decided not to name and shame you. I have nothing against you personally, but I suspected your three stars had some ulterior motive, and you have proven my hypothesis correct. Thank you.
There's his notes on my quests. If anyone would like to play them to see if there are in fact floating buildings, or if there is really no music, please, go ahead. If you want to one, two, or three star them for any personal reasons, go ahead. I no longer care about their adjusted ratings because their time on the list has expired.
I'll give you a false 5 star rating if you like. Only it will have to replace the real 5 star rating I already gave you
No actually you prove my theory. You rate five stars to pre-emptively counter the '1 star trolls' and yet don't think that players will have a similar mind-set and award one star to counter your dishonesty.
Amusing irony there.
Brethren of the Five, Campaign. - Story focused
The Dwarven Tale - Hack 'N Slash
I fixed MOST of the flicker on the walls, and added a campfire halfway up the ramp in Zigby's First Strike before I republished the quests. Some of your points are indeed valid, and I do value your legitimate feedback. I have no hard feelings toward you, and apologize if you feel I was calling you out. I was just trying to make a point about how the adjusted rating system's bonus percentage of the average rating per plays doesn't really matter. However, I must refute the two points mentioned above. I saw no buildings or details floating when I tested the quests live, and the music worked fine and dandy.
Once a quest is being played by players then the votes will even out.
Indeed, but a HUGE problem for MOST Foundry authors is that their quest never does get played by players. Players basically stick to the Best list, and like the top twenty quests on the New list. Once you scroll down so far on the New list you start to see quests that have only been played by five to ten Foundry authors for Review Trades. So, for a lot of Foundry authors, it doesn't even out. Then there's the issue of trolling. I'm glad my quests are actually not on the list now, so I don't have to really give a **** about ratings anymore.
Perhaps you "don't get it" instead? (your words, not mine). Here's why I rate five stars for authors on the forums...
And that's why, not for the reason you place in my mouth.
My dishonesty? Interesting. I give 5 stars to support the community and you call my reviews dishonest. Dishonesty is being bribed to give those 5 stars. Dishonesty is 1 star retribution ratings. Dishonesty is not believing in the reason for giving that rating. I believe in giving every author here 5 stars. I believe in supporting this community.
I done replying to you karitr. I hold no ill will towards you, but you continue to argue and insult me. No thanks.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
I agree, but it's not the fault of the rating system. It is the search options and loot problems. I don't think there is much trolling. Maybe some. I just think there are many idiots that can't get it into there head that we have no control over loot.
But when all the talk is about ratings it takes the emphasis away from the real issue. We know that they are working on the search problems and time will tell but now it's time for the loot issues to be addressed.
QFT. And that's the a huge factor in why the rating system is broken. It favors plays above all else.
So even those like lolsorhand did a ton of review trading to get plays.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
And
But this isn't a problem with the rating system, its a problem with the catalogue and lists system.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
I'll give you that. I would agree to call it a broken listing system instead of a rating system. I sort of lump it all together as one thing since the "adjusted rating" ranks how high that goes in the list too. Just keep in mind that they both work together.
All in all I've disliked the catalog system/UI itself more than the rating system. It's annoying to search for things. It also bugs out for quests' background images and give the wrong ones. It sometimes gives the entirely wrong set of reviews for some quest until you click it again. One time I found it gave all of these reviews in German for my own quest, and hundreds of them. Was funny.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
The entire campaign can be found here: NWS-DQS27OINC
Individual quests:
1. Heeding the Call - NW-DMJCDZ5XJ
2. Bored of the Rings - NW-DFWE3XR6W
3. Draconian Ways - NW-DUNZEJG2J
4. When All is Said and Done... - Look at the picture
/Yes, I can provide links.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you indirectly. You said in a reply to me
"I feel that if an author cares enough to be involved with the community at this level they deserve a fighting chance against troll ratings, exploit quests, and a ratings system that favors raw play counts and being at the top of tabs over anything else"
Those are your words, not mine.
You, along with many authors, admit to giving average quests the very best ratings whether they are deserved or not. I've acknowledged this is done out of (in my opinion) misguided kindness, but it doesn't make it any less dishonest.
I have not insulted you. I was quite happy to talk in general terms, but you went to great detail in several posts to explain how you rated quests and why. If you didn't want that to be commented on then perhaps you should have done the same and just spoken in general terms.
Just a quick note here... Sorry for clipping your post.
IMHO giving a 5* rating when you do not feel it is actually worth a 5* rating is being dishonest.
edit:
And by that I mean if you feel that the quest has flaws and errors etc and still 5* it that seems to be dishonest. Would you give an authors quest who has never post here a 5* to support them also?
Narayan
So someone from here has gone to another site and pretended to be from here?
Pretended to be themselves?
Or someone else?
And what would they gain from doing this?
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
As this is a popular web forum, people there got riled up by the imposter and started having repercussions for the real person in Neverwinter Online:
"I simply played his foundry mission, selected report for violations, and linked Cryptic to the original post. Figure that may do something to him ingame."
"and then refuses to pay people. So trash his stuff."
"Will edit with the details of the original thread, but please, downvote [bad word removed by me] everything he makes."
The real person isn't a member of this other forum, and didn't catch it until too late.
What? .... I am stunned! I hope they were banned. I don't even want to know who it was.
Ditto. It's one thing to discuss and argue here, quite another to make it personal beyond these forums.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
So yes, there are Foundry authors who are willing to sabotage others. I was able to narrow the imposter down to a few people. I won't name them but nothing ever happened to them here.
Wow talking about making it personal. Just Wow. I guess there will always be those types.
Edit:
Wasn't there someone here offering AD or maybe zen for 5* ratings?
Narayan
I'm a known author and "silverstar", but koboldbard2 isn't my author name.
OK, Just wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things.
What some people will do. Boggles the mind.
Narayan