GWF is having a very hard time right now. When GWf first got there buff it was okay. But it has been steadily getting worse. As the Devs Fix Dungeons. CW are becoming more and more a Demand for dealing with adds. Because GWF can't hold a candle to the CW for add control.
Look at the prime T2 Dungeons. Spellplague, Temple of Spider, Frozen Heart and Karrundax, (Prime dungoens because these drop the set armor picews everyone wants). Since the Boss aggro range has been limited. You can no longer pull the boss in to a safezone away from it adds spawn. Now CW are required to fight mini-bosses with AS on adds as well as using AS to push kill trash. 2 CW parties are becoming more common for Spell, Spider and Karr. So all adds can be constantly spammed with AS, on trash and boss fights. Only in FH a CW is not required. this is the only dungeon that has very few cliffs to push mobs off of or bosses where AS is essential. (Because golem adds are immune to CC) Yet still I see parties making 2 CW groups for FH. Why because that is the norm. And 2 CW is never a bad thing for FH just not Ideal like it is for other dungeons.
And of course then there is CN, where 2 CW is absolutely needed. And not just needed you need 2 very skilled CW to even have a chance to beat the Dracolich. I have never heard of any group beating the Draco with only 1 CW. And if it can be done no one would bother trying.
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hydro818Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Bravery: Ranking up this power now affects Run Speed (+15% at max rank), but the Deflect bonus has been reduced to +8% at max rank.
Known issue: The first rank of this power currently grants significantly more Deflect than intended.
Crescendo: This power now grants CC immunity while active.
Slam: The damage from this power has been reduced; it had previously done too much damage for its area of effect, duration, and utility, and the intent is to change its focus mostly to utility.
The initial cast now interupts targets, and while slowed, affected targets now deal -15% damage (at max rank).
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%.
Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
Steadfast Determination: This is now properly affected by bonuses to Determination.
Feat: Endless Assault: This feat now properly affects Punishing Charge.
Feat: Focused Destroyer: The tooltip has had a minor update for accuracy.
Feat: Master of Arms: The max Deflect bonus that this feat can provide has been reduced by 33%.
Feat: Master of Arms: The first rank of this feat no longer grants a double bonus.
Feat: Unstoppable Action: The feat no longer incorrectly increases Action Point gain for longer than expected after using Unstoppable.
Feat: Unstoppable Recovery: The tooltip has been updated to properly state that this feat heals the player.
Well I guess the Dev's found that Slam was silly on even a single target so they nerfed it to a utility daily instead of damage daily. Well Mages just easily took our spot as Trash DPS killers....
In a dungeon run slam was usually my #2 damaging ability. Now I don't see a point of it being on my bar.
Well maybe with all the PVP nerfs they will finally work on our PVE viability.... Doubtful but one can hope right?
Why shouldn't we hit as hard as rogues in PVE? Also in PVP and PVE a squishy non regen/defense/deflect stacking GWF will go down faster then a rogue. A pure DPS rogue has way more survivability than a pure DPS GWF. I can run around Spellplague on my non perma stealth build and solo all the spawning pits while the group catches up by using my defensive abilities. Between stealth, impossible to catch and bait and switch my rogue can and will easily out survive an Instigator or Destroyer GWF on trash or a boss. There is a reason rogues commonly tank the end dungeon bosses with 0 healing besides potions.
Maybe because you have better armor and higher survivability
While it was just trash, my gwf came out #1 on most of the runs I did of the skirmish event this week (orc assault event @ 60). Why? Because there is no way to exploit it, and being limited to hitting only a few mobs was not a big deal when there were at most 8 on the screen, hitting 5 is fine. This shows that the class can excel but it not with current instance design, which doubles up on making our class weak (exploit off the cliff and too many to aoe issue).
My take on it is the class is pretty good. The following would fix 99% of the issues IMHO...
- fix the exploits esp knocking things off (this needs to be done anyway, for all non-solo content). Solo, IMHO, its a tactic. Grouped, its makes CW a one man team.
- increase the aoe to hit more targets, at least 10, if not all in range. This should be the same for all aoe regardless of class.
- move the aoe at-will wicked strike to be the first at will, right off the boat at level 1. Early levels of GWF are just painful with the sorry at-wills. The hold it down and wait, and wait, and wait "aoe" is insufficient.
- the lower levels need ONE of the hard hitting single target mob encounters. Swap one of the aoe encounters for a single target for order of access.
- decrease the hang-time of the daily where you jump in the air, then all the mobs run out of range, then you land and hit one enemy kinda hard, and probably the per hit damage of spinning daily.
- fix the exploits esp knocking things off (this needs to be done anyway, for all non-solo content). Solo, IMHO, its a tactic. Grouped, its makes CW a one man team.
The Devs have stated that knocking mobs off ledge is a deliberate game design.
Sadly this just means that CW are essential and other AOE classes are not wanted....
Maybe because you have better armor and higher survivability
just a thought
That was why they were taken once in a while now, but after they nerf deflect GWF won't be any tankier than GF, so why take them over GF? And if you're arguing about taking them over a CW or TR... lol. No amount of tankiness can replace insta-killing adds over a ledge or chain CC to where adds can't move, and no class can compare to TR for single target boss dps.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The Devs have stated that knocking mobs off ledge is a deliberate game design.
Sadly this just means that CW are essential and other AOE classes are not wanted....
I do not mind it being possible, but it needs be looked at and tweaked so the CW is not the star of every team. Make it require thought and skill --- only knock one guy off at a time, so they have to pick out the toughest mob for example... Until this is balanced a bit, it is a problem. It is not the only deliberate game feature that needs to be tweaked.
I do not mind it being possible, but it needs be looked at and tweaked so the CW is not the star of every team. Make it require thought and skill --- only knock one guy off at a time, so they have to pick out the toughest mob for example... Until this is balanced a bit, it is a problem. It is not the only deliberate game feature that needs to be tweaked.
The point is that not only is this a deliberate game design, but they have not changed the core mechanic at all, and it looks likely they never will.
The point is that not only is this a deliberate game design, but they have not changed the core mechanic at all, and it looks likely they never will.
Even the low-level solo dungeons have cliffs you can use, so it's definitely something that's intended. Now only if Roar had a bit more push...and we could join in on the fun.
I'm just not sure what to think of the patch. I dislike the damage-nerf, but we are getting some nice buffs in return, Slam being an interrupt is pretty decent. (Although a knockdown at first cast might be even sweeter). I just don't see how this will make GWF's more desirable or useful in dungeons, because the mobs will still be punted by the CW, DC and even GF.
Even the low-level solo dungeons have cliffs you can use, so it's definitely something that's intended. Now only if Roar had a bit more push...and we could join in on the fun.
I'm just not sure what to think of the patch. I dislike the damage-nerf, but we are getting some nice buffs in return, Slam being an interrupt is pretty decent. (Although a knockdown at first cast might be even sweeter). I just don't see how this will make GWF's more desirable or useful in dungeons, because the mobs will still be punted by the CW, DC and even GF.
Which nice buffs are you talking about?
From my understanding of the change to Slam, the interrupt is just at the start of the casting. The reduced damage debuff to the monsters, while nice, isn't really needed and is (my opinion) not a fair trade off for the damage nerf. Remember, Slam also applies a slow which allows your party members (and you) a chance to out run your targets.
As Slam is now, 90% of the time, it's used as a Add agro magnet and a Add killer. While still doing good damage to the Boss. With this change, there's serious doubt it will be a Add agro magnet and it sure won't be a Add killer.
Which brings up the question: If this change goes live, which Daily AoE GWF power will will your GWF equip and use?
Slam: The damage from this power has been reduced; it had previously done too much damage for its area of effect, duration, and utility, and the intent is to change its focus mostly to utility.
The initial cast now interupts targets, and while slowed, affected targets now deal -15% damage (at max rank).
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%.
Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
This is astonishingly stupid. The ONLY decent AOE power as a daily GWF has is getting its damage nerfed by 60%. That is appallingly bad game design. Tell me - how do we do AoE damage now? Avalanche - try using it it in PvP. Even galactically stupid people run away before it hits. Slam is all we have, becuase the class is so badly designed.
And can some genius explain how come CONTROL wizards out dps us in AOE damage? Because Game designers don't understand their own game.
SLAM is a like a daily power - it should be a high damage power. DAILY'S ARE NOT UTILITY. If that logic holds then Ice Knife needs to be nerfed by 90% for its damage.
FOCUS on what is broken. Nerf AoE damage from control wizards before looking at GWF again.
Yeah I really cant believe that out of all the balancing that they could have done they are choosing to nerf the currently weakest class. Slam being pretty much the only daily used by destroyers as they get +25% power while active so that really sucks for DPS. And then -12% deflection for sentinel, which is the only somewhat needed PvE spec imo. The only thing GWF tank has going for it over a GF is big deflection, and there it goes...
So long story short I won't be playing GWF much after patch, of course I only did PvP on him now heh.
Edit: and for those that say Sent is OP in PvP you are simply wrong. Tene's on a Sent build are OP, but the build itself is so lacking in damage that it more than compensates for the tankiness. What if a GF built all defense/HP/Regen? You never see that b/c they can be pretty tanky and still do huge damage. But if they did they would have almost as much tankiness and with more CC and the ability to block. Complaining about sent GWF alone is dumb, the Tenes are what make it strong, and therefore the Tenes are what needs to be nerfed not the class.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Slam: The damage from this power has been reduced; it had previously done too much damage for its area of effect, duration, and utility, and the intent is to change its focus mostly to utility.
The initial cast now interupts targets, and while slowed, affected targets now deal -15% damage (at max rank).
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%.
Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
This is astonishingly stupid. The ONLY decent AOE power as a daily GWF has is getting its damage nerfed by 60%. That is appallingly bad game design. Tell me - how do we do AoE damage now? Avalanche - try using it it in PvP. Even galactically stupid people run away before it hits. Slam is all we have, becuase the class is so badly designed.
And can some genius explain how come CONTROL wizards out dps us in AOE damage? Because Game designers don't understand their own game.
SLAM is a like a daily power - it should be a high damage power. DAILY'S ARE NOT UTILITY. If that logic holds then Ice Knife needs to be nerfed by 90% for its damage.
FOCUS on what is broken. Nerf AoE damage from control wizards before looking at GWF again.
Couldn't agree more. I really start to think that the designers of this game really don't understand a **** about what they're doing.
I mean, it's a daily. Every other class have high damage dailies. Ice Knife does even more damage than crescendo. And we're supposed to be DPS. Now they nerfed the only useful daily we got. Avalanche is no good in PvP. You can move it while in air, but when the enemy is fast such as rogues, can teleport, and can split up, you can move it all you want, it will suck eventually.
Instead of trying to solve the issue THEY, AND THEIR "no-that-smart" (don't want to be offensive) GAME DESIGN created, and find a way to make GWFs considered useful in high-end epic dungeons (and, right now, 90% of players still see us as a waste in such dungeons). what do they do?
They nerf our best daily power.
Where is everyone getting this 60% nerf from? Look at it closely
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%. Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
so this means it is a roughly 80% nerf to the skill
Comments
Look at the prime T2 Dungeons. Spellplague, Temple of Spider, Frozen Heart and Karrundax, (Prime dungoens because these drop the set armor picews everyone wants). Since the Boss aggro range has been limited. You can no longer pull the boss in to a safezone away from it adds spawn. Now CW are required to fight mini-bosses with AS on adds as well as using AS to push kill trash. 2 CW parties are becoming more common for Spell, Spider and Karr. So all adds can be constantly spammed with AS, on trash and boss fights. Only in FH a CW is not required. this is the only dungeon that has very few cliffs to push mobs off of or bosses where AS is essential. (Because golem adds are immune to CC) Yet still I see parties making 2 CW groups for FH. Why because that is the norm. And 2 CW is never a bad thing for FH just not Ideal like it is for other dungeons.
And of course then there is CN, where 2 CW is absolutely needed. And not just needed you need 2 very skilled CW to even have a chance to beat the Dracolich. I have never heard of any group beating the Draco with only 1 CW. And if it can be done no one would bother trying.
Well I guess the Dev's found that Slam was silly on even a single target so they nerfed it to a utility daily instead of damage daily. Well Mages just easily took our spot as Trash DPS killers....
In a dungeon run slam was usually my #2 damaging ability. Now I don't see a point of it being on my bar.
Well maybe with all the PVP nerfs they will finally work on our PVE viability.... Doubtful but one can hope right?
Maybe because you have better armor and higher survivability
just a thought
My take on it is the class is pretty good. The following would fix 99% of the issues IMHO...
- fix the exploits esp knocking things off (this needs to be done anyway, for all non-solo content). Solo, IMHO, its a tactic. Grouped, its makes CW a one man team.
- increase the aoe to hit more targets, at least 10, if not all in range. This should be the same for all aoe regardless of class.
- move the aoe at-will wicked strike to be the first at will, right off the boat at level 1. Early levels of GWF are just painful with the sorry at-wills. The hold it down and wait, and wait, and wait "aoe" is insufficient.
- the lower levels need ONE of the hard hitting single target mob encounters. Swap one of the aoe encounters for a single target for order of access.
- decrease the hang-time of the daily where you jump in the air, then all the mobs run out of range, then you land and hit one enemy kinda hard, and probably the per hit damage of spinning daily.
The Devs have stated that knocking mobs off ledge is a deliberate game design.
Sadly this just means that CW are essential and other AOE classes are not wanted....
That was why they were taken once in a while now, but after they nerf deflect GWF won't be any tankier than GF, so why take them over GF? And if you're arguing about taking them over a CW or TR... lol. No amount of tankiness can replace insta-killing adds over a ledge or chain CC to where adds can't move, and no class can compare to TR for single target boss dps.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I do not mind it being possible, but it needs be looked at and tweaked so the CW is not the star of every team. Make it require thought and skill --- only knock one guy off at a time, so they have to pick out the toughest mob for example... Until this is balanced a bit, it is a problem. It is not the only deliberate game feature that needs to be tweaked.
Also the knockdown/interrupt is far superior than the slow that slam will eventually offer.
They did not mention if the interrupt on slam would tick every 1 second or only on the initial tick.
The point is that not only is this a deliberate game design, but they have not changed the core mechanic at all, and it looks likely they never will.
Even the low-level solo dungeons have cliffs you can use, so it's definitely something that's intended. Now only if Roar had a bit more push...and we could join in on the fun.
I'm just not sure what to think of the patch. I dislike the damage-nerf, but we are getting some nice buffs in return, Slam being an interrupt is pretty decent. (Although a knockdown at first cast might be even sweeter). I just don't see how this will make GWF's more desirable or useful in dungeons, because the mobs will still be punted by the CW, DC and even GF.
Which nice buffs are you talking about?
From my understanding of the change to Slam, the interrupt is just at the start of the casting. The reduced damage debuff to the monsters, while nice, isn't really needed and is (my opinion) not a fair trade off for the damage nerf. Remember, Slam also applies a slow which allows your party members (and you) a chance to out run your targets.
As Slam is now, 90% of the time, it's used as a Add agro magnet and a Add killer. While still doing good damage to the Boss. With this change, there's serious doubt it will be a Add agro magnet and it sure won't be a Add killer.
Which brings up the question: If this change goes live, which Daily AoE GWF power will will your GWF equip and use?
The initial cast now interupts targets, and while slowed, affected targets now deal -15% damage (at max rank).
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%.
Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
This is astonishingly stupid. The ONLY decent AOE power as a daily GWF has is getting its damage nerfed by 60%. That is appallingly bad game design. Tell me - how do we do AoE damage now? Avalanche - try using it it in PvP. Even galactically stupid people run away before it hits. Slam is all we have, becuase the class is so badly designed.
And can some genius explain how come CONTROL wizards out dps us in AOE damage? Because Game designers don't understand their own game.
SLAM is a like a daily power - it should be a high damage power. DAILY'S ARE NOT UTILITY. If that logic holds then Ice Knife needs to be nerfed by 90% for its damage.
FOCUS on what is broken. Nerf AoE damage from control wizards before looking at GWF again.
So long story short I won't be playing GWF much after patch, of course I only did PvP on him now heh.
Edit: and for those that say Sent is OP in PvP you are simply wrong. Tene's on a Sent build are OP, but the build itself is so lacking in damage that it more than compensates for the tankiness. What if a GF built all defense/HP/Regen? You never see that b/c they can be pretty tanky and still do huge damage. But if they did they would have almost as much tankiness and with more CC and the ability to block. Complaining about sent GWF alone is dumb, the Tenes are what make it strong, and therefore the Tenes are what needs to be nerfed not the class.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Couldn't agree more. I really start to think that the designers of this game really don't understand a **** about what they're doing.
I mean, it's a daily. Every other class have high damage dailies. Ice Knife does even more damage than crescendo. And we're supposed to be DPS. Now they nerfed the only useful daily we got. Avalanche is no good in PvP. You can move it while in air, but when the enemy is fast such as rogues, can teleport, and can split up, you can move it all you want, it will suck eventually.
Instead of trying to solve the issue THEY, AND THEIR "no-that-smart" (don't want to be offensive) GAME DESIGN created, and find a way to make GWFs considered useful in high-end epic dungeons (and, right now, 90% of players still see us as a waste in such dungeons). what do they do?
They nerf our best daily power.
Omg.
The power now shows its max estimated damage rather than its per-tick value, and per-tick damage has been reduced by 60%.
Rank ups now provide 1 additional second rather than 2.
so this means it is a roughly 80% nerf to the skill