suggestion: legit reasons to nerf dungeons (not epics)

joncans

This is not a QQ thread. I am currently running my alt (GWF) back through the zones (39 as of this post). I have a 60 GF with a 10.7 GS, and have done most T1 and T2's and made it to the second boss on CN before having to disband.

After all of this time in dungeons, I am suggesting that regular dungeons need a nerfing. Here are legitimate reasons why:

1. The populace is growing, you have a ton of new people running these dungeons for the 1st time. Nerf the add spam on bosses so it isn't an hour wasted in a pug (which is the way most people group up in this game).

2. People try tough dungeons once (Throne of Idris) and if they wipe they level up past it. Then they remember this on alts and don't Q up for these dungeons. I spent 35 minutes during DD in queue only to wipe three times on last boss and not get the chest.

3. Until there is a built in chat translator, the language barrier is killing pugs. It makes communication impossible. Add this to new players first visiting dungeons, and the insane add spam that EVERY boss spawns, and you are in for a very difficult DD. Almost every dungeon becomes extremely difficult after level 35. Grats if you have guildies, but a lot of people role solo, making pug life very frustrating.

4. Let all players experience the dungeons with the 'lite' experience. Then when they gear up and hit epics, they know the layout but are still challenged by the current add spam.

5. Some people are achievement hunters. you level up so fast in this game you can level up past a dungeon before you know it. If more people were queuing for the tougher dungeons (epics not included) then it would be easier to get in these dungeons before you level past them.

That's all. I'm glad the game is growing, and want to help new players, but when your tank speaks Spanish, all the CAPS chat spam won't make a **** difference..

satanous1

The main problem is that people are still learning the mechanics and they aren't used to the idea of a rogue tanking and a guardian running around in circles kiting adds.

abell39

To me, the biggest problem related to this is that I don't know any way to replace party members who drop out of a dungeon. Only wipe I ever had was trying to stomp Idris while on-level when two people left the party. I don't play a lot so I was trying to knock out both my daily dungeon and dungeon delve at the same time, and it was frustrating that I lost both.

But then, recently my on-level DC and an on-level TR in a pug managed to own Frozen Heart when three of our party members dropped, and it only took us two tries to defeat the final boss. So I guess it depends on your dungeon and how well your party can coordinate. We wouldn't have made it another couple of minutes in Frozen Heart, but I drew aggro from all the adds while the TR soloed the boss, so our strategy paid off.

I don't think a built-in chat translator would work just because translating is hard to do automatically, even with languages as similar as Spanish and English. Too many English words have multiple meanings that a translator can't always pick up from context, and while Spanish isn't quite as bad on that as English is, it still has plenty of wacky multiple meanings of its own. There's also the fact that a single typo can wreck a whole translation if a critical word is misspelled. One solution could be for the queue system to try and group together people whose clients are in the same language, but that would exacerbate queue issues and be unfair for people who are multilingual. It's hard to figure out how to address the language thing in any way that would help communication....

joncans

I played WoW for over 4 years, and I never once encountered language issues. In fact I never encountered a non English speaking player. Is this a drawback for a FTP game, or server laziness? As far as your Throne experience, TR can solo anything, go watch the video of the TR soloing the end boss in CN. Of course he spent real money on 30+ rez scrolls, but he (she) did it.

The communication would not be as much of an issue if the amount of trash spam spawning on bosses was nerfed, period. Keep it epics, lower it a bit in dungeons. I too have wiped on my DD+Daily run. very frustrating indeed.

evilderprimus88

abell39 wrote: »

It's hard to figure out how to address the language thing in any way that would help communication....

Implying English-speaking teenager will stop to read your chat messages mid-dungeon, and that it's easy to type stuff in the chat during the fight. This problem was solved before in the other games by using a set of in-built typical phrases, which are already translated. These phrases should be summoned by keyboard shortcuts, and probably should be fully voiced or printed in the middle of the screen because few players can be bothered to read chat.

For example:

TR: Shift-4, "Need healing!"
DC: Shift-5, "Enemies are overwhelming me, can't heal!"

The strategies ("Rogue on the boss, others on the adds") could be added to the list, too, because these are not some big secret. But even so, developers wont' be able to "fix" miscommunication completely since it's not a game issue, it's playerbase issue.

yokanaan

Nerfing dungeons means there will be no challenge. Game should be challenging. That makes it fun and really gives you a satisfaction when you finally kill that boss and get your reward.
If dungeons were easy there would be no need for a party to complete them (even now there are some classes which can solo dungeons).

mconosrep

abell39 wrote: »

But then, recently my on-level DC and an on-level TR in a pug managed to own Frozen Heart when three of our party members dropped,

Meh, I came within 1% (literally ) of doing that on EPIC once....

joncans

yokanaan wrote: »

Nerfing dungeons means there will be no chalenge. Game should be chalenging. That makes it fun and really gives you a satisfaction when you finally kill that boss and get your reward.
If dungeons were easy there would be no need for a party to complete them (even now there are some classes which can solo dungeons).

*Challenge.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, or roll a TR as your main, which is the easiest class to solo content. If you are telling me that running Dread Vault (regular) as your daily everyday is *easy, you are nuts. You either have a guild who knows the strategy, or again you know not what you are talking about.

Nerfing them would not nuke the challenge. As it stands, right now people are wasting hours of gameplay for these long dungeons just to come up short. It happens to me everyday. Whether I am on my main (60) running the basic of T1's, or my alt doing the zones.

chudovishye

satanous1 wrote: »

The main problem is that people are still learning the mechanics and they aren't used to the idea of a rogue tanking and a guardian running around in circles kiting adds.

The rogue is not tanking, it's DPSing. The GF, as described by you, is the definition of tanking. They move around with powerful defense and keep the enemies off of everyone else. This is not what the rogue is doing.

satanous1

When the boss' attention is on anyone other than the rogue, I'll agree that the rogue is merely DPSing. Until then, the rogue is tanking the boss. You may not agree with that interpretation, but it is what it is. The guardian isn't tanking by your definition either. Since "powerful defenses" are not required. Merely aggro generation and the ability to outrun the mobs. In many runs a guardian isn't even required since it's more efficient to bring an additional CW to fling the mobs off of a platform/ledge.

The point is that people aren't used to a traditional tank being a kiter and a DPS class being on the boss the whole time while everyone else is playing "save the cleric."

oddbodz

From level 33 onwards using the group finder from throne to pirate I simply have not been able to complete these dungeons.

Over the weekend I ran throne/wolf/pirate on normal difficulty using group finder and could not complete any of them despite multiple attempts at each boss and as the op stated , you out level the dungeon or get so sick of blowing 100's of pots that you don't really experience the dungeon and constant wiping isn't fun.

Guild experience's obviously differ but I have basically abandoned the group finder tool now for characters above 35 ,was honestly quite amazed at the total fail groups.
Again another point the op makes is the language barrier - I tried my best to explain the end boss' in each dungeon but when someone doesn't speak English or whichever your native language might be ,well it gets tough.

Something else worth noting about the group finder is skirmish above level 30 ish - they rarely, if ever pop.
That's my experience with group finder and the normal mode dungeons at the moment - I personally think the sudden huge jump in dungeon end boss difficulty at around level 35 onward dungeons is a bit much.

satanous1

Unfortunately, things aren't a heck of a lot better at 60. If you primarily use the dungeon finder tool to form groups, you'll likely fail on the last boss of the harder dungeons. That's pretty much why people spam for such geared players in PE chat. If you want to succeed, join a guild and run with people that are competent.

abell39

Maybe I've been ridiculously lucky, but when I want to dungeon delve (or skirmishing for that matter) I go to the zone of the dungeon I want to do and gather up a party by asking in zonechat if anyone wants to go dungeoning. We queue if possible but usually there's someone who's just a couple of levels over so we'll just enter the dungeon manually. Aside from the shenanigans I've already mentioned with Idris, I've had nothing but great runs in dungeons by gathering up a party this way instead of waiting on the queue. Granted, my highest-level character is still just level 52, so it may be different if you're level 60, but this works really well for me.

chudovishye

satanous1 wrote: »

When the boss' attention is on anyone other than the rogue, I'll agree that the rogue is merely DPSing. Until then, the rogue is tanking the boss. You may not agree with that interpretation, but it is what it is. The guardian isn't tanking by your definition either. Since "powerful defenses" are not required. Merely aggro generation and the ability to outrun the mobs. In many runs a guardian isn't even required since it's more efficient to bring an additional CW to fling the mobs off of a platform/ledge.

The point is that people aren't used to a traditional tank being a kiter and a DPS class being on the boss the whole time while everyone else is playing "save the cleric."

But that's not what a tank is, by definition, that's my point. People aren't used to rogues doing single target perhaps? Not tanking. They're not tanking at all. Their function is primarily single-target, massive crit, so it should make perfect sense to everyone. Tanking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_(gaming)