The only legit complaint about GWF I see is against the sent/HP/Regen/tens GWF. I play both CW and GWF in PvP and I see it like this: for the vast majority of players at the majority of levels, PvP is reasonably balanced (except DC). The problem with that particular build is that it's inverse can't be replicated by other classes. In other words it maximizes its defensive strength and ends up with 38kish HP,50% mitigation and 30% deflect, has huge healing potential and temp HP for additional soak, big Regen... Defensive paragon. To do this they sacrifice nearly all offensive stats which SHOULD be the trade off. The problem is Teneb enchants give them the ability to do good PvP damage again. Sure, it's still less than ANY other class with Tenebs, but its enough to kill another player.
A CW, even at high end, does not have that option. They can't maximize their DPS and then pick up enchants to allow them to tank reasonably well.
To me the answer is pretty simple. Add an enchant that synergizes with dps to give survivability in the way that tene does with HP to give damage. For example a % of damage you do is added as temp HP and mitigation that can go above your max. And make it not factor in teneb damage so tanks don't get the best of both worlds.
To me the answer is pretty simple. Add an enchant that synergizes with dps to give survivability in the way that tene does with HP to give damage. For example a % of damage you do is added as temp HP and mitigation that can go above your max. And make it not factor in teneb damage so tanks don't get the best of both worlds.
Seriously?! You're asking for ANOTHER Tenebrous-like enchant?! OMG!@#! That's how you think things should be balanced out? Enchants should be a little boost to compliment your stats/playstyle/and role. Enchants should NEVER be a way to add a completely new role to the class.
Lets be really honest. Tenebrous are what they are because PWE/Cryptic doesnt want to HAMSTER off those who spent alot of $$, not because they think they are balanced (even after nerfing them). I get it, and I am OK with it. JUST DONT freakin do any nerfing to class mechanics/powers/feats just to offset the Tenebrous BS.
Which is exactly why I didn't suggest removing Tenebs. Isn't happening. Plus I like the idea of min-maxing and build diversity. I think the GWF sent HP Regen teneb build is so filled with synergies that its really cool. I want to see options like that for every class.
The feats and powers sure don't give you a lot of viable options. For some classes you're almost forced to cookie cutter. They would make the most money doing it via enchants, and it would be a long term goal which this game needs. That's how I'd do it if I were them.
Which is exactly why I didn't suggest removing Tenebs. Isn't happening. Plus I like the idea of min-maxing and build diversity. I think the GWF sent HP Regen teneb build is so filled with synergies that its really cool. I want to see options like that for every class.
The feats and powers sure don't give you a lot of viable options. For some classes you're almost forced to cookie cutter. They would make the most money doing it via enchants, and it would be a long term goal which this game needs. That's how I'd do it if I were them.
There is no diversity with Tenebrous. And there wont be diversity with any other similar OP enchants. It's going to create the cookie cutter you're complaining about. If you can afford it, you'll be the cookie cutter build. If you can't, then you'll have to think of the different ways to be successful.
I think you misunderstand the concept of min-maxing. Min-maxing is about capitalizing on your strengths and completely ignoring your weakness. What you are suggesting is max-maxing lol!
Here is one:
CWenebrous Enchant: Upon receiving damage, create a barrier that absorbs 10% incoming damage for 10second. This effect can only happen once per 30seconds. (used in a Defensive Slot)
So you get your pretty CW and spend a few mil to put 5 of those on your gear and be able to get 50% DR for 10 second.
So now not only will people QQ about GWFs, which could get them nerfed at their core mechanics, they will also QQ about CWs leading to similar core mechanics nerfs. End result, a failed game with no hope of being revived.
Hah ok. Because I haven't been min/maxing for 30 years. You make bad assumptions and I disagree with your definition. Min/maxing as I have always defined it is maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses. No reasonable gamer ignores a weakness. The GWF sent build min/maxes very well, precisely because of Tenebs. Tenebs minimize the weakness to the point that it arguably isn't a weakness anymore.
And that wouldn't result in cookie cutter. Your choice is then CW high offense and moderate defense or GWF high defense with moderate offense. You want to see cookie cutter go YouTube some of the high end premade vs premade matches.
I've played a lot of these games. And PvP can be enjoyable in a lot of situations. In UO PvP was truly cookie cutter so it really came down to skill which was fun. EQ was all about gear which was also fun - gave you goals and when you reached them you got to wreck face for a while.
WoW was more rock/paper/scissors which was also fun because everyone had a role.
There are a lot of good ways to do it. But NW is not quite there.
For the cost of 500k AD in gear and 5 normal Tenebs my GWF is a god that causes opponent teams to leave within the first two mins 3/5 games. That's a problem. I'd rather they fix it by balancing other classes instead of gimping the GWF though, because I can't afford to re-gear or move the enchants to another guy.
Hah ok. Because I haven't been min/maxing for 30 years. You make bad assumptions and I disagree with your definition. Min/maxing as I have always defined it is maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses. No reasonable gamer ignores a weakness. The GWF sent build min/maxes very well, precisely because of Tenebs. Tenebs minimize the weakness to the point that it arguably isn't a weakness anymore.
LOL ok...then I am sure you are familiar with DIKU Muds. The original theory is Maxmini. The idea was to stack whatever it is for maximum gain. For example, a rogue Maxmini his backstab to do the absolute maximum initial burst at the cost or by sacrificing other elements of the class. The idea is that maximizing your gains can balance out your deficiencies. This deviated from building a "balanced" rogue, one that does a decent backstab but can also do other things decently. Then came the Minimax which was to minimize your loss or countering a Maxmini charater. So in the example above, a Warrior would minimize the Maxmini tactic of the rogue by maybe stacking mitigation. In a balanced game, you shouldnt be able to create a Maxmini + a Minimax all in one character. That is exactly the definition of Overpowered.
And that wouldn't result in cookie cutter. Your choice is then CW high offense and moderate defense or GWF high defense with moderate offense. You want to see cookie cutter go YouTube some of the high end premade vs premade matches.
It absolutely creates a cookie cutter character. That's why 99% of GWFs with Tenebrous are Sentinels. That's why 99% are stacking HP. That's why 99% are stacking defense and mitigation. You dont see intigators/destroyers, while would still work, running with tenebrous. The same thing would happen with CW. If you were given an enchant that provides Damage Resistance, you would spec/slot the most damaging feats/powers. You would see all the CW running the same spec and even slotting the same powers.
The creativity and diversity should only come from the class powers and feats. Enchants should be there to enhance your spec, not transform your character to dual spec.
I've played a lot of these games. And PvP can be enjoyable in a lot of situations. In UO PvP was truly cookie cutter so it really came down to skill which was fun. EQ was all about gear which was also fun - gave you goals and when you reached them you got to wreck face for a while.
WoW was more rock/paper/scissors which was also fun because everyone had a role.
There are a lot of good ways to do it. But NW is not quite there.
Actually I disagree. There ARENT a lot of good ways to do it, actually the opposite. Every game I played where gear in PvP was the main factor of success, died or is dying. Gear should NEVER be the determining factor to your performance. In my opinion, and in that order it should be:
Skill - Knowing your class well
Individual Strategy - understanding your role and how to take advantage of the map
Group/team/faction Tactics - Group make-up, Team work and winning objectives.
Gear - Not really about expensive or end game gear, but using gear that is specific to PvP.
If a game has these priorities, then I believe they would have a winning PvP concept.
For the cost of 500k AD in gear and 5 normal Tenebs my GWF is a god that causes opponent teams to leave within the first two mins 3/5 games. That's a problem. I'd rather they fix it by balancing other classes instead of gimping the GWF though, because I can't afford to re-gear or move the enchants to another guy.
Maybe a god with a lower case "g", because the one with greater Tenebs has the capital "G" lol
Are you reading what you typed? what does introducing new enchants have ANYTHING to do with balancing classes. So why not just give the effects of the Tenebs and other enchants you want right into the class feats? lol Or is it just purely a Pay to win model you are encouraging? Your idea of balance is for everyone to just slot Tenebs or equally devastating enchants.
Why did you mention how much you spent for the gear but not what you spent for the 5 normal Tenebs? :P Oh lets be conservative and say 3.5mil so in total about 4mil (or about $100) . So because you don't like the idea of having to spend more AD if they nerf Tenebs, you want others to spend an equal amount to pimp their characters so less people would quit your PvP dominations. In the long run, when enough people slot Tenebs (because the price on all these will go down since their effectiveness will be offset by other enchants), we will all be on the same playing field and cancel out each others' overpowerdness. lol
So why not just skip all this crazy illogical mess and just nerf Tenebs, and only risk angering the very few people right now stacking these enchants?
LOL ok...then I am sure you are familiar with DIKU Muds. The original theory is Maxmini. The idea was to stack whatever it is for maximum gain. For example, a rogue Maxmini his backstab to do the absolute maximum initial burst at the cost or by sacrificing other elements of the class. The idea is that maximizing your gains can balance out your deficiencies. This deviated from building a "balanced" rogue, one that does a decent backstab but can also do other things decently. Then came the Minimax which was to minimize your loss or countering a Maxmini charater. So in the example above, a Warrior would minimize the Maxmini tactic of the rogue by maybe stacking mitigation. In a balanced game, you shouldnt be able to create a Maxmini + a Minimax all in one character. That is exactly the definition of Overpowered.
The term has been around much longer than internet gaming. We were using it in table-top D&D long before muds hit the scene.
It absolutely creates a cookie cutter character. That's why 99% of GWFs with Tenebrous are Sentinels. That's why 99% are stacking HP. That's why 99% are stacking defense and mitigation. You dont see intigators/destroyers, while would still work, running with tenebrous. The same thing would happen with CW. If you were given an enchant that provides Damage Resistance, you would spec/slot the most damaging feats/powers. You would see all the CW running the same spec and even slotting the same powers.
The creativity and diversity should only come from the class powers and feats. Enchants should be there to enhance your spec, not transform your character to dual spec.
You already see that. Your Wiz guide proves it. And you **** well know in PvE there is really only one way to do it right, and then some less optimal ways. Tell your next group you're a single target ranged DPSer and see what happens. Same in PvP, you have 3 must haves, and a debuff of choice based on your spec. So while you can chose from two specs, they play nearly exactly the same. True diversity within a class is a myth, because players will always figure out the optimal way to do it, someone will post a guide, and everyone will do that. With or without enchants that will be true.
Actually I disagree. There ARENT a lot of good ways to do it, actually the opposite. Every game I played where gear in PvP was the main factor of success, died or is dying. Gear should NEVER be the determining factor to your performance. In my opinion, and in that order it should be:
Skill - Knowing your class well
Individual Strategy - understanding your role and how to take advantage of the map
Group/team/faction Tactics - Group make-up, Team work and winning objectives.
Gear - Not really about expensive or end game gear, but using gear that is specific to PvP.
If a game has these priorities, then I believe they would have a winning PvP concept.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you might find a shooter or RTS is a better fit for skill based competition. Gear differences have always been a significant factor in MMOs, and even the ones that have separate PvP gear don't give it out, so there are different players in different tiers of gear, giving greater advantage to those who spend more time playing (or in some rare cases, those who perform better).
Are you reading what you typed? what does introducing new enchants have ANYTHING to do with balancing classes. So why not just give the effects of the Tenebs and other enchants you want right into the class feats? lol Or is it just purely a Pay to win model you are encouraging? Your idea of balance is for everyone to just slot Tenebs or equally devastating enchants.
Enchants are just another way to tweak a characters abilities. They can add to what the character already does (Damage, debuff, defense, etc.) or they can add totally new effects. They are not an inherently better or worse way to get them than putting points into a power or feat. A good example is Diablo 2, where itemization created a greater diversity of builds than would have been possible without them. As for Pay to Win, it doesn't matter what I want, this is a pay to win game. You can pay dollars for Zen, Exchange Zen for AD, and then use AD to buy the best gear in the game. You can't undo that now unless you make all gear equal, and that would be a terrible game that no one would play. RPers need that carrot to chase.
Why did you mention how much you spent for the gear but not what you spent for the 5 normal Tenebs? :P Oh lets be conservative and say 3.5mil so in total about 4mil (or about $100) . So because you don't like the idea of having to spend more AD if they nerf Tenebs, you want others to spend an equal amount to pimp their characters so less people would quit your PvP dominations. In the long run, when enough people slot Tenebs (because the price on all these will go down since their effectiveness will be offset by other enchants), we will all be on the same playing field and cancel out each others' overpowerdness. lol
I mentioned it to point out that it is very cheap to get into a very powerful PvP character. It took me about a month to get there. That's a pretty small investment. I want gear to be meaningful, but I think that's a difference we have.
So why not just skip all this crazy illogical mess and just nerf Tenebs, and only risk angering the very few people right now stacking these enchants?
I just don't think they'll do it. It's not that i'm against it, but it would drastically change things. That's fine, I would just prefer they wouldn't do it after I just blew all my resources to make this guy that is totally reliant on them.
The term has been around much longer than internet gaming. We were using it in table-top D&D long before muds hit the scene.
You already see that. Your Wiz guide proves it. And you **** well know in PvE there is really only one way to do it right, and then some less optimal ways. Tell your next group you're a single target ranged DPSer and see what happens. Same in PvP, you have 3 must haves, and a debuff of choice based on your spec. So while you can chose from two specs, they play nearly exactly the same. True diversity within a class is a myth, because players will always figure out the optimal way to do it, someone will post a guide, and everyone will do that. With or without enchants that will be true.
I am not arguing the concept of maximizing the effectiveness of your character, but within the context of the class mechanic. If someone builds a specific character all around a specific function of some gear, then there is something seriously wrong with the either the gear, or the class. Add the fact that it can instantly be accomplished using real $$, and you got yourself a failed game, because the vast majority won't be able to compete financially.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you might find a shooter or RTS is a better fit for skill based competition. Gear differences have always been a significant factor in MMOs, and even the ones that have separate PvP gear don't give it out, so there are different players in different tiers of gear, giving greater advantage to those who spend more time playing (or in some rare cases, those who perform better).
In these MMOs you mentioned, the players earned these "better" gear. Even then, game devs are very careful not to make them OP, and in many cases the benefits are very small in comparison to the lower tier. Players get them mainly for bragging rights. Still in these games players often QQ about gear being OP, when in fact it is often player experience that was the determining factor.
Getting a 60 GWF in Sent spec, stacking HP, Defense, Tenebs, owning in PvP, requires zero experience and even zero progression as a PvP player.
Enchants are just another way to tweak a characters abilities. They can add to what the character already does (Damage, debuff, defense, etc.) or they can add totally new effects. They are not an inherently better or worse way to get them than putting points into a power or feat. A good example is Diablo 2, where itemization created a greater diversity of builds than would have been possible without them. As for Pay to Win, it doesn't matter what I want, this is a pay to win game. You can pay dollars for Zen, Exchange Zen for AD, and then use AD to buy the best gear in the game. You can't undo that now unless you make all gear equal, and that would be a terrible game that no one would play. RPers need that carrot to chase.
There is a huge difference between enchants that "tweak" and enchants that "transform". Rank8 enchants tweak characters, and pretty good too. Tenebrous is on a whole different scale, and nowhere near the concept of tweaking. lol
I disagree with the severity of your perception that this is a Pay to Win game. The Tenebrous is the only Pay to Win BS in the ENTIRE game so far. Any player can clear the entire game content without spending a dime. Your average player will spend a few dollars to speed this process up. In PvP average geared players can compete with those that pimp their toons with max enchants. Sure they have a little advantage, but up to that end game pvp gear, skill still trumps. This stops when you introduce enchants like Tenebrous. I am not thinking any less of someone who is using them, and maybe they are just as skilled without them. But the advantage these enchants provides is completely ridiculous.
I mentioned it to point out that it is very cheap to get into a very powerful PvP character. It took me about a month to get there. That's a pretty small investment. I want gear to be meaningful, but I think that's a difference we have.
4mil is not cheap, not by any standard. Consider the likes of me who like to play more than one character and this becomes pretty **** expensive.
You can't possibly convince me that the only thing in this game that's making gear meaningful is just ONE specific enchant. The game is still in its infancy, and each class has at least a handful of viable full sets to use both in PvE and PvP. There are quite a few ways to tweak any class to suit your playstyle, but there are advantages and disadvantages to these decisions.
Your idea basically eliminates these decisions. Why would a GWF choose to be a DPS spec pvp, when they can be a tank AND DPS at the same time?
So you go and nerf TR's.... Awesome they needed it BUT now you need to tweak GWF's. They will be the new top dog if you don't tweak their class. They should NOT be above a TR in pvp end of story.
Your balancing is nice at least you are trying, but please don't make us wait 1-2 more months for GWF to be brought back into reality.
Why are you complaining about GWFs? GWF are so weak compared to what they use to be. After beta GWF lost 60% of their damage.
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ghostravynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 59
So you go and nerf TR's.... Awesome they needed it BUT now you need to tweak GWF's. They will be the new top dog if you don't tweak their class. They should NOT be above a TR in pvp end of story.
Your balancing is nice at least you are trying, but please don't make us wait 1-2 more months for GWF to be brought back into reality.
There's always going to be a "top dog" - it's the nature of builds and games like this. The problem is when the disparity between top dog and bottom dog is as vast as it is right now (GWF is not bottom dog either), or the disparity between top dog and second dog.
There's always going to be a "top dog" - it's the nature of builds and games like this. The problem is when the disparity between top dog and bottom dog is as vast as it is right now (GWF is not bottom dog either), or the disparity between top dog and second dog.
My CW GWF and GF. All top charts regularly. Player not the class.
Honestly its NOT the GWF that needs a nerf, its the amazing synergy Sent GWFs have with Tene enchants... Fix the enchant and it fixes the build...
Tene is the same reason CoS in stealth was so amazing... If you take that away, the build isnt very effective...
Although rather than balancing the classes I would rather see a tene balance... The best way I can see this is to make it mitigated damage, give it a shorter CD and a lower proc chance...
This makes it do less damage overall, but CAN proc more often if attacking alot but it also has a lower proc chance... This will even out the damage it does ALOT considering its not hard to get 30% DR turing even a 1100 GTE hit to 770 at full HP... 7 of those = 5400 damage as opposed to 7700 on FULL procs at FULL hp...
players playing GWFs learned how to play their class when they were underdogs. players playing TRs "learned" how to play them as topdog thus when you make topdog a bit more onpar with other classes they have to learn again or whine like babies.
players playing GWFs learned how to play their class when they were underdogs.
players playing TRs "learned" how to play them as topdog thus when you make topdog a bit more onpar with other classes they have to learn again or whine like babies.
Amazing how people don't realise this.
A lot of the very lowest skilled players choose Rogues because they were brokenly OP. Now that they have to rely more on their own skills rather than just OP class abilities they whine.....
A lot of the very lowest skilled players choose Rogues because they were brokenly OP. Now that they have to rely more on their own skills rather than just OP class abilities they whine.....
Well the problem is even the skilled rogues understood that the nerf is so severe that a gwf can "replace" a rogue in the party post patch. I have already ran the numbers, played on test server dps wise rogues lose out just over 40% of total dps if accounting for stealth running out before flurry ends + bleed nerf. Not to mention even harder dps nerf for boss fights, while losing more survivablity.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
A lot of the very lowest skilled players choose Rogues because they were brokenly OP. Now that they have to rely more on their own skills rather than just OP class abilities they whine.....
TR's class ability is stealth though, and it's being made about 25% or less as effective as it used to be. What if they made Unstoppable give you 10% temp hp, 15% damage reduction, half the attack speed increase, and last half as long? would that not be way too overboard of a nerf to your staple class ability?
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
TR's class ability is stealth though, and it's being made about 25% or less as effective as it used to be. What if they made Unstoppable give you 10% temp hp, 15% damage reduction, half the attack speed increase, and last half as long? would that not be way too overboard of a nerf to your staple class ability?
Then GWF would truly be dead. TR is nowhere near being useless. They toned you down. Sure you won't rock the #1 dps slot in dungeons. Then again a single target dps is doing more damage than an AOE class...so understand that.
I do not support perma-stealth and think it should be removed from PvE and PvP. However that said even in its current state permastealth TR's can only do great damage with great gear (tene's, vorpal etc). Put them up against GWF or GF with comparable gear and they get crushed in a heartbeat.
Sent GWF in the right gear can tank 5 players... Does that mean I want to nerf GWF? No, thats the top 1% of GWF's that have that much gear and that build, makes no sense to nerf them all because of gear power. Same goes for TR.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Survivablity in PVE? You mean godmode. A permastealth rogue can solo what nobody else can and you feel that is fine?
I can understand you dreading the dps nerf but in reality you guys did a truckload of damage nobody else could even come close to as a total.
Yes I understand permastealth loses dps but who cared when you are not in a race since nothing could target you?
Have you played a permastealth rogue? 100% of all end dungeon bosses can see through stealth. Permastealth rogues doesnt rock damage charts, they sacrifice damage for stealth. geared out rogues with 3k recovery rock damage charts not some perma stealth, Rogues rock damage charts for single target, GWFs dominate damage charts unless ur party keeps wiping at bosses.
Then GWF would truly be dead. TR is nowhere near being useless. They toned you down. Sure you won't rock the #1 dps slot in dungeons. Then again a single target dps is doing more damage than an AOE class...so understand that.
The only time a TR ever out dmged me in a dungeon was because he was running with perfect vorpal and im running regular vorpal.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
The only time a TR ever out dmged me in a dungeon was because he was running with perfect vorpal and im running regular vorpal.
I don't know what to make of statements like this. Are you literally saying that's the only time a TR ever out damaged you in a dungeon? Even pre-balance patch? I don't know, I run with a group of skilled players and depending on the dungeon, 3 of us take turns at the top of the damage list. CW, TR, and GWF.
I mean, I could surround myself with horrible players and be king of the baddies, I am not saying that's the case with you, but I see horrible players I have run into brag about being top damage or "noone ever out damages me." and I just call bull****. Then again I don't measure myself by total damage done. If I do a pre-made in a dungeon, I expect to be least downed, top damage taken (below GF if one is present), most total kills, and within range of the damage of anyone else in the dungeon. Again, that depends on dungeons. Sometimes I am on top (spellplague or Karrundax), sometimes I am third (castle never), sometimes I am second (Frozen Heart)
Steelkat/Unfrozen Caveman - DCs
Guild Leader of MOPP4 MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
I don't know what to make of statements like this. Are you literally saying that's the only time a TR ever out damaged you in a dungeon? Even pre-balance patch? I don't know, I run with a group of skilled players and depending on the dungeon, 3 of us take turns at the top of the damage list. CW, TR, and GWF.
I mean, I could surround myself with horrible players and be king of the baddies, I am not saying that's the case with you, but I see horrible players I have run into brag about being top damage or "noone ever out damages me." and I just call bull****. Then again I don't measure myself by total damage done. If I do a pre-made in a dungeon, I expect to be least downed, top damage taken (below GF if one is present), most total kills, and within range of the damage of anyone else in the dungeon. Again, that depends on dungeons. Sometimes I am on top (spellplague or Karrundax), sometimes I am third (castle never), sometimes I am second (Frozen Heart)
yup in a dungeon with no knock offs gwf should always top damage. Cw top damages in cn because of the knockoff/content skipping. FH TR top damages because you skipped everything to last boss, because you are actually glitching to do a single target damage race. If you wipe once in spider last boss TR will out damage you. Pirates is an aoe fest gwf will always top damage. Karrun you will outdamage everyone. equally geared GWFs out damages TRs.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Sent GWF in the right gear can tank 5 players... Does that mean I want to nerf GWF? No, thats the top 1% of GWF's that have that much gear and that build, makes no sense to nerf them all because of gear power. Same goes for TR.
Sorry but im geared like you talk about and the ONLY time I can tank 4-5 players is if they are all really bad and badly geared..
I played two matches this morning where I DID tank 2 TRs and 1 GF for a LONG time... Eventually I died though... I played another match and constantly went up against two geared and well played CWs... I had a hard time killing just 1 of them since they would time their Ice Knife really well and were very good at kiting me around.. Sure it was 2v1... but my gear > theirs and they were able to take me down...
Same thing happened with a GF/CW... GFs perma stun makes it so you cant unstoppable which is how GWFs can tank so well... If you dont waste dailies when unstoppable, its pretty dang easy to time and kill a GWF...
Also you make a very good point, I dont know what (if any) they did to tene drops from lockboxes or what, but Ive seen now the prices of lessers go from 10kAD each to like 200k+ AD each now... I think they might have nerfed the drop rate because there are RARELY any of them on the AH now, AND the prices are through the roof! All that meaning the number of 7 GTE players on all the servers in probably is not (or slightly above) the triple digits out of the what? 2 million players? I know I RARELY go up against other GTE user and MOST of the time I do, they dont have 7... They will have like 4...
And again, Sent Tene GWFs are USELESS in PVE. Their SOLE purpose in existing is to rock PvP... When you pigeon hole yourself into something like that, chances are you will excel at it, but suck in other aspects... So when you complain about that character just know its a ~20mil AD (currently) Character that CANT really do any PVE without swapping gear out alot... Even then, its abismal at best...
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t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
This is a joke right?
First of all I want to say, if you invest in survivability as a GWF you lack heavily in DPS. If you go DPS you lack heavily in survivability. So unless the person has a full suite of perfect tenebs then I don't see a GWF being able to face tank 4 players *AND* 3-shot kill them off. It's one or the other bud, unless as they have tenebs, but that leads me to my next point...
The GWFs that own pvp have 12k+ gear score. The ones that face tank 4 players at once and 3-shot kill them have 12k+ gear score +tenebs. Without tenebs, that tanky GWF would not be dishing out serious damage. But more importantly once ANY class gets over 12k gear score +tenebs they are ridiculous. A TR with 12k gear score +tenebs will 1 hit you with Shocking Execution and there is nothing broken about that, he just has you out-geared. If you have 2k gear score less than your opponent, then don't bother trying to kill them, it's as simple as that. The only thing that needs a nerf is those nasty tenebs.
I don't think TRs need a nerf either. A fix on the perma-stealth is somewhat necessary (keyword being 'fix' because perma-stealth is definitely broken), but they don't need a DPS nerf in the slightest. They are the DPS class ffs and they have almost no survivability, so I agree with you on that part. However, you must realize that the reason the TR is getting nerfed is because bads with low gear score come qq'ing on the forums when they get slaughtered by players that have them out-geared. I don't know what the case is here, but it looks like more of the same qq'ing.
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A CW, even at high end, does not have that option. They can't maximize their DPS and then pick up enchants to allow them to tank reasonably well.
To me the answer is pretty simple. Add an enchant that synergizes with dps to give survivability in the way that tene does with HP to give damage. For example a % of damage you do is added as temp HP and mitigation that can go above your max. And make it not factor in teneb damage so tanks don't get the best of both worlds.
Seriously?! You're asking for ANOTHER Tenebrous-like enchant?! OMG!@#! That's how you think things should be balanced out? Enchants should be a little boost to compliment your stats/playstyle/and role. Enchants should NEVER be a way to add a completely new role to the class.
Lets be really honest. Tenebrous are what they are because PWE/Cryptic doesnt want to HAMSTER off those who spent alot of $$, not because they think they are balanced (even after nerfing them). I get it, and I am OK with it. JUST DONT freakin do any nerfing to class mechanics/powers/feats just to offset the Tenebrous BS.
The feats and powers sure don't give you a lot of viable options. For some classes you're almost forced to cookie cutter. They would make the most money doing it via enchants, and it would be a long term goal which this game needs. That's how I'd do it if I were them.
There is no diversity with Tenebrous. And there wont be diversity with any other similar OP enchants. It's going to create the cookie cutter you're complaining about. If you can afford it, you'll be the cookie cutter build. If you can't, then you'll have to think of the different ways to be successful.
I think you misunderstand the concept of min-maxing. Min-maxing is about capitalizing on your strengths and completely ignoring your weakness. What you are suggesting is max-maxing lol!
Here is one:
CWenebrous Enchant: Upon receiving damage, create a barrier that absorbs 10% incoming damage for 10second. This effect can only happen once per 30seconds. (used in a Defensive Slot)
So you get your pretty CW and spend a few mil to put 5 of those on your gear and be able to get 50% DR for 10 second.
So now not only will people QQ about GWFs, which could get them nerfed at their core mechanics, they will also QQ about CWs leading to similar core mechanics nerfs. End result, a failed game with no hope of being revived.
And that wouldn't result in cookie cutter. Your choice is then CW high offense and moderate defense or GWF high defense with moderate offense. You want to see cookie cutter go YouTube some of the high end premade vs premade matches.
I've played a lot of these games. And PvP can be enjoyable in a lot of situations. In UO PvP was truly cookie cutter so it really came down to skill which was fun. EQ was all about gear which was also fun - gave you goals and when you reached them you got to wreck face for a while.
WoW was more rock/paper/scissors which was also fun because everyone had a role.
There are a lot of good ways to do it. But NW is not quite there.
For the cost of 500k AD in gear and 5 normal Tenebs my GWF is a god that causes opponent teams to leave within the first two mins 3/5 games. That's a problem. I'd rather they fix it by balancing other classes instead of gimping the GWF though, because I can't afford to re-gear or move the enchants to another guy.
If it weren't for tene enchants, most of wouldn't be crying about 80% of all one-shots.
LOL ok...then I am sure you are familiar with DIKU Muds. The original theory is Maxmini. The idea was to stack whatever it is for maximum gain. For example, a rogue Maxmini his backstab to do the absolute maximum initial burst at the cost or by sacrificing other elements of the class. The idea is that maximizing your gains can balance out your deficiencies. This deviated from building a "balanced" rogue, one that does a decent backstab but can also do other things decently. Then came the Minimax which was to minimize your loss or countering a Maxmini charater. So in the example above, a Warrior would minimize the Maxmini tactic of the rogue by maybe stacking mitigation. In a balanced game, you shouldnt be able to create a Maxmini + a Minimax all in one character. That is exactly the definition of Overpowered.
It absolutely creates a cookie cutter character. That's why 99% of GWFs with Tenebrous are Sentinels. That's why 99% are stacking HP. That's why 99% are stacking defense and mitigation. You dont see intigators/destroyers, while would still work, running with tenebrous. The same thing would happen with CW. If you were given an enchant that provides Damage Resistance, you would spec/slot the most damaging feats/powers. You would see all the CW running the same spec and even slotting the same powers.
The creativity and diversity should only come from the class powers and feats. Enchants should be there to enhance your spec, not transform your character to dual spec.
Actually I disagree. There ARENT a lot of good ways to do it, actually the opposite. Every game I played where gear in PvP was the main factor of success, died or is dying. Gear should NEVER be the determining factor to your performance. In my opinion, and in that order it should be:
Skill - Knowing your class well
Individual Strategy - understanding your role and how to take advantage of the map
Group/team/faction Tactics - Group make-up, Team work and winning objectives.
Gear - Not really about expensive or end game gear, but using gear that is specific to PvP.
If a game has these priorities, then I believe they would have a winning PvP concept.
Maybe a god with a lower case "g", because the one with greater Tenebs has the capital "G" lol
Are you reading what you typed? what does introducing new enchants have ANYTHING to do with balancing classes. So why not just give the effects of the Tenebs and other enchants you want right into the class feats? lol Or is it just purely a Pay to win model you are encouraging? Your idea of balance is for everyone to just slot Tenebs or equally devastating enchants.
Why did you mention how much you spent for the gear but not what you spent for the 5 normal Tenebs? :P Oh lets be conservative and say 3.5mil so in total about 4mil (or about $100) . So because you don't like the idea of having to spend more AD if they nerf Tenebs, you want others to spend an equal amount to pimp their characters so less people would quit your PvP dominations. In the long run, when enough people slot Tenebs (because the price on all these will go down since their effectiveness will be offset by other enchants), we will all be on the same playing field and cancel out each others' overpowerdness. lol
So why not just skip all this crazy illogical mess and just nerf Tenebs, and only risk angering the very few people right now stacking these enchants?
OR
make the skill an entirely different skill for PvP.
As for a GWF nerf? really? come on..
The term has been around much longer than internet gaming. We were using it in table-top D&D long before muds hit the scene.
You already see that. Your Wiz guide proves it. And you **** well know in PvE there is really only one way to do it right, and then some less optimal ways. Tell your next group you're a single target ranged DPSer and see what happens. Same in PvP, you have 3 must haves, and a debuff of choice based on your spec. So while you can chose from two specs, they play nearly exactly the same. True diversity within a class is a myth, because players will always figure out the optimal way to do it, someone will post a guide, and everyone will do that. With or without enchants that will be true.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you might find a shooter or RTS is a better fit for skill based competition. Gear differences have always been a significant factor in MMOs, and even the ones that have separate PvP gear don't give it out, so there are different players in different tiers of gear, giving greater advantage to those who spend more time playing (or in some rare cases, those who perform better).
Enchants are just another way to tweak a characters abilities. They can add to what the character already does (Damage, debuff, defense, etc.) or they can add totally new effects. They are not an inherently better or worse way to get them than putting points into a power or feat. A good example is Diablo 2, where itemization created a greater diversity of builds than would have been possible without them. As for Pay to Win, it doesn't matter what I want, this is a pay to win game. You can pay dollars for Zen, Exchange Zen for AD, and then use AD to buy the best gear in the game. You can't undo that now unless you make all gear equal, and that would be a terrible game that no one would play. RPers need that carrot to chase.
I mentioned it to point out that it is very cheap to get into a very powerful PvP character. It took me about a month to get there. That's a pretty small investment. I want gear to be meaningful, but I think that's a difference we have.
I just don't think they'll do it. It's not that i'm against it, but it would drastically change things. That's fine, I would just prefer they wouldn't do it after I just blew all my resources to make this guy that is totally reliant on them.
I am not arguing the concept of maximizing the effectiveness of your character, but within the context of the class mechanic. If someone builds a specific character all around a specific function of some gear, then there is something seriously wrong with the either the gear, or the class. Add the fact that it can instantly be accomplished using real $$, and you got yourself a failed game, because the vast majority won't be able to compete financially.
In these MMOs you mentioned, the players earned these "better" gear. Even then, game devs are very careful not to make them OP, and in many cases the benefits are very small in comparison to the lower tier. Players get them mainly for bragging rights. Still in these games players often QQ about gear being OP, when in fact it is often player experience that was the determining factor.
Getting a 60 GWF in Sent spec, stacking HP, Defense, Tenebs, owning in PvP, requires zero experience and even zero progression as a PvP player.
There is a huge difference between enchants that "tweak" and enchants that "transform". Rank8 enchants tweak characters, and pretty good too. Tenebrous is on a whole different scale, and nowhere near the concept of tweaking. lol
I disagree with the severity of your perception that this is a Pay to Win game. The Tenebrous is the only Pay to Win BS in the ENTIRE game so far. Any player can clear the entire game content without spending a dime. Your average player will spend a few dollars to speed this process up. In PvP average geared players can compete with those that pimp their toons with max enchants. Sure they have a little advantage, but up to that end game pvp gear, skill still trumps. This stops when you introduce enchants like Tenebrous. I am not thinking any less of someone who is using them, and maybe they are just as skilled without them. But the advantage these enchants provides is completely ridiculous.
4mil is not cheap, not by any standard. Consider the likes of me who like to play more than one character and this becomes pretty **** expensive.
You can't possibly convince me that the only thing in this game that's making gear meaningful is just ONE specific enchant. The game is still in its infancy, and each class has at least a handful of viable full sets to use both in PvE and PvP. There are quite a few ways to tweak any class to suit your playstyle, but there are advantages and disadvantages to these decisions.
Your idea basically eliminates these decisions. Why would a GWF choose to be a DPS spec pvp, when they can be a tank AND DPS at the same time?
Why are you complaining about GWFs? GWF are so weak compared to what they use to be. After beta GWF lost 60% of their damage.
My CW GWF and GF. All top charts regularly. Player not the class.
Tene is the same reason CoS in stealth was so amazing... If you take that away, the build isnt very effective...
Although rather than balancing the classes I would rather see a tene balance... The best way I can see this is to make it mitigated damage, give it a shorter CD and a lower proc chance...
This makes it do less damage overall, but CAN proc more often if attacking alot but it also has a lower proc chance... This will even out the damage it does ALOT considering its not hard to get 30% DR turing even a 1100 GTE hit to 770 at full HP... 7 of those = 5400 damage as opposed to 7700 on FULL procs at FULL hp...
Awesome you nerfed GWF into the ground, they needed it. Now what are you going to do about CW?
Awesome you nerfed CW into the ground, they needed it. Now what are you going to do about GF?
Awesome you nerfed GF into the ground, they needed it. Now why can't we complete dungeons?? Even T1's are really hard whats the deal?!
Awesome you nerfed all content into the ground, it needed it. Now I'm going to go play minesweeper for a real challenge...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Amazing how people don't realise this.
A lot of the very lowest skilled players choose Rogues because they were brokenly OP. Now that they have to rely more on their own skills rather than just OP class abilities they whine.....
Well the problem is even the skilled rogues understood that the nerf is so severe that a gwf can "replace" a rogue in the party post patch. I have already ran the numbers, played on test server dps wise rogues lose out just over 40% of total dps if accounting for stealth running out before flurry ends + bleed nerf. Not to mention even harder dps nerf for boss fights, while losing more survivablity.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
TR's class ability is stealth though, and it's being made about 25% or less as effective as it used to be. What if they made Unstoppable give you 10% temp hp, 15% damage reduction, half the attack speed increase, and last half as long? would that not be way too overboard of a nerf to your staple class ability?
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Survivablity in PVE? You mean godmode. A permastealth rogue can solo what nobody else can and you feel that is fine?
I can understand you dreading the dps nerf but in reality you guys did a truckload of damage nobody else could even come close to as a total.
Yes I understand permastealth loses dps but who cared when you are not in a race since nothing could target you?
Then GWF would truly be dead. TR is nowhere near being useless. They toned you down. Sure you won't rock the #1 dps slot in dungeons. Then again a single target dps is doing more damage than an AOE class...so understand that.
Sent GWF in the right gear can tank 5 players... Does that mean I want to nerf GWF? No, thats the top 1% of GWF's that have that much gear and that build, makes no sense to nerf them all because of gear power. Same goes for TR.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Have you played a permastealth rogue? 100% of all end dungeon bosses can see through stealth. Permastealth rogues doesnt rock damage charts, they sacrifice damage for stealth. geared out rogues with 3k recovery rock damage charts not some perma stealth, Rogues rock damage charts for single target, GWFs dominate damage charts unless ur party keeps wiping at bosses.
The only time a TR ever out dmged me in a dungeon was because he was running with perfect vorpal and im running regular vorpal.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
I am a GWF and if you take adds out of the equation then I too can solo and kill a boss....just takes me longer.
I agree, GWFs and GFs need to be nerfed.
I don't know what to make of statements like this. Are you literally saying that's the only time a TR ever out damaged you in a dungeon? Even pre-balance patch? I don't know, I run with a group of skilled players and depending on the dungeon, 3 of us take turns at the top of the damage list. CW, TR, and GWF.
I mean, I could surround myself with horrible players and be king of the baddies, I am not saying that's the case with you, but I see horrible players I have run into brag about being top damage or "noone ever out damages me." and I just call bull****. Then again I don't measure myself by total damage done. If I do a pre-made in a dungeon, I expect to be least downed, top damage taken (below GF if one is present), most total kills, and within range of the damage of anyone else in the dungeon. Again, that depends on dungeons. Sometimes I am on top (spellplague or Karrundax), sometimes I am third (castle never), sometimes I am second (Frozen Heart)
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yup in a dungeon with no knock offs gwf should always top damage. Cw top damages in cn because of the knockoff/content skipping. FH TR top damages because you skipped everything to last boss, because you are actually glitching to do a single target damage race. If you wipe once in spider last boss TR will out damage you. Pirates is an aoe fest gwf will always top damage. Karrun you will outdamage everyone. equally geared GWFs out damages TRs.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Sorry but im geared like you talk about and the ONLY time I can tank 4-5 players is if they are all really bad and badly geared..
I played two matches this morning where I DID tank 2 TRs and 1 GF for a LONG time... Eventually I died though... I played another match and constantly went up against two geared and well played CWs... I had a hard time killing just 1 of them since they would time their Ice Knife really well and were very good at kiting me around.. Sure it was 2v1... but my gear > theirs and they were able to take me down...
Same thing happened with a GF/CW... GFs perma stun makes it so you cant unstoppable which is how GWFs can tank so well... If you dont waste dailies when unstoppable, its pretty dang easy to time and kill a GWF...
Also you make a very good point, I dont know what (if any) they did to tene drops from lockboxes or what, but Ive seen now the prices of lessers go from 10kAD each to like 200k+ AD each now... I think they might have nerfed the drop rate because there are RARELY any of them on the AH now, AND the prices are through the roof! All that meaning the number of 7 GTE players on all the servers in probably is not (or slightly above) the triple digits out of the what? 2 million players? I know I RARELY go up against other GTE user and MOST of the time I do, they dont have 7... They will have like 4...
And again, Sent Tene GWFs are USELESS in PVE. Their SOLE purpose in existing is to rock PvP... When you pigeon hole yourself into something like that, chances are you will excel at it, but suck in other aspects... So when you complain about that character just know its a ~20mil AD (currently) Character that CANT really do any PVE without swapping gear out alot... Even then, its abismal at best...
First of all I want to say, if you invest in survivability as a GWF you lack heavily in DPS. If you go DPS you lack heavily in survivability. So unless the person has a full suite of perfect tenebs then I don't see a GWF being able to face tank 4 players *AND* 3-shot kill them off. It's one or the other bud, unless as they have tenebs, but that leads me to my next point...
The GWFs that own pvp have 12k+ gear score. The ones that face tank 4 players at once and 3-shot kill them have 12k+ gear score +tenebs. Without tenebs, that tanky GWF would not be dishing out serious damage. But more importantly once ANY class gets over 12k gear score +tenebs they are ridiculous. A TR with 12k gear score +tenebs will 1 hit you with Shocking Execution and there is nothing broken about that, he just has you out-geared. If you have 2k gear score less than your opponent, then don't bother trying to kill them, it's as simple as that. The only thing that needs a nerf is those nasty tenebs.
I don't think TRs need a nerf either. A fix on the perma-stealth is somewhat necessary (keyword being 'fix' because perma-stealth is definitely broken), but they don't need a DPS nerf in the slightest. They are the DPS class ffs and they have almost no survivability, so I agree with you on that part. However, you must realize that the reason the TR is getting nerfed is because bads with low gear score come qq'ing on the forums when they get slaughtered by players that have them out-geared. I don't know what the case is here, but it looks like more of the same qq'ing.