First of all im another target demographic, 30 something housewife me hubby and his little sister all play all sped a lot of money and all 3 of us have at least one rogue. spent a ton on cosmetics just look at my sig. and I fully plan to keep spending as long as I find this game fun.
Also I do think the nerfs were over the top even if LA makes me motion sick and drove me to wearing a bright red bow on my tail just so I could keep track of which white blop was me. However this whole situation has made me research a great deal about my class and I realized a few things.
1. this is NOT a perma-stealth pvp driven nerf it does not touch, Targeting dummy, impossible to catch, stealth strike, or smoke bomb. this nerf seems to be targeting the top 3 powers ALL builds combined, LA, Duelist, and COS are in both stealth and executioner builds and are probably naturally favorites of the average Joe, even before I ever looked at a guide I had these 3 powers maxxed even in spite of LA making me cross-eyed cause it seemed effective for bosses.
2. according to people analyzing the test server they seem to be giving a 8% non crit damage bonus to powers so this does offset a LOT of the damage numbers not involving Lurkers directly. COS will be doing more damage with each individual dagger but not have a 12 dagger payoff. so this could make other powers that seemed Meh or worthless before an advantage...like whirlwind or path of blades.
My advice is let the patch come out analyse the changes look at new build guides before shouting the sky is falling cause...it might end up just fine for rogues.
Just to get my point across: I'm a married guy in his young 30's with a rather large amount of disposable income for my age bracket. I have purchased: Hero of the North founder pack, Guardian Founder pack & approximately another $300 in zen. Feel free to look at my character(s) as I'm sure you have the ability to verify these things. I have 34 character slots, 28 of them are currently utilized. I do not bot, exploit, cheat or steal. To sum it up, I'm your ideal customer. If you have a target demo on a white board somewhere in your office, my face should be on it.
My favorite and first class is a TR. Rather than whine, rant or give you empty threats about "quitting" and a supposed mass exodus from the game regarding this new patch note I thought I'd give you a promise I can deliver upon.
I will not spend one single additional cent on your game(s) if you continue to cater to the minority (PVP) crowd in your patches, if in the process it hurts the majority (PVE) of the gamers.
Anyone serious about PVP plays other games (League of Legends comes to mind). There is absolutely no reason for you to continue to nerf a class that is working as intended (largest amount of single target DPS) because PVP players can't come to grips with why their CW can't kill a TR in PVP.
I don't use Lurker's assault that much except on certain bosses, I use Whirlwind because it looks cooler and I hate the effects Lurker's does to my view. I do however rely on stealth, and the ability to use my at-wills from steals without coming out of stealth. I was slightly miffed when you nerfed TR the last few times. If you nerf it again this hard, you will not receive any additional funding for your company (I play several of your games) from me and I can assure you I am not alone.
Signed,
Your target demographic
You are wrong. You are far from beeing the "ideal customer".
You noticed flaws in this game and/or it's developers and reacted in an appropriate manner.
The ideal customer of this "game" and it's publishing companies is very dull and short-minded (I refused to use "f u ck ing stupid" because that would have been inappropriate and offensive so I went with with "dull and short-minded")
You on the other hand seem to have understood this companies "business model".
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caverndragonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited July 2013
+10
I have to say I'm with you on this one. I've dropped over $800 so far and god only knows how much on STO, (life time member) DDO found out the hard way that they would get no more funding for there big improvements aka Stealth nerfs. To many other games out there.
They might not care if 10, 20 or 30 people dont spend anymore money but when your Black ink go's Red they will. Money Talks B.S walks
First and foremost I am not a rogue on my main toon. I have played mmorpgs since AOL dark sands online, pre UO, and MUDS before that. I have spent years playing everquest, wow and lifetime member of lotro. I came here because it was fresh and exciting and because lotro kept it boring and nerfed my class hunter into the dirt making it boring.
We want to kill stuff, we want big hits, we want super powers, we want buffs and not nerfs. Who is in charge over there, you should be focused on BUFFING other classes to equal that of a TR, that way everyone wins.
If changes like this go into the game, I plan on moving to another game sooner than later. There is no way I want to invest my time into characters that get axed like this.
Before the astral shield nerf, i used to be an incompetent DC player. I wasn't able to solo heal castle never with multiple mobs packs pull. Now, i can do that. Yes, the best DC spell has been nerfed, and overally, most DCs have become better players. I'm pretty sure most TR players will adapt, learn to use different spells, different gear, and so on.
Nerfs aren't always bad, even from the pve perspective. If a spell is in everyone's spell bar, then it's likely to be OP and deserves a balance check.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Before the astral shield nerf, i used to be an incompetent DC player. I wasn't able to solo heal castle never with multiple mobs packs pull. Now, i can do that. Yes, the best DC spell has been nerfed, and overally, most DCs have become better players. I'm pretty sure most TR players will adapt, learn to use different spells, different gear, and so on.
Nerfs aren't always bad, even from the pve perspective. If a spell is in everyone's spell bar, then it's likely to be OP and deserves a balance check.
Certain things are always in the bar because the alternatives are HAMSTER, or only worth using on certain encounters. That doesn't always mean it's op. What happens when another spell is the go-to spell? Nerf that as well? Might as well just nerf everything, again and again.
You learned your class. If you couldn't heal properly with astral seal the way it used to be, then you didn't know your class, and that's your fault. There are plenty of dc's that DID know their class before the nerf. That doesn't mean there was a problem with the spell itself.
TL : DR? Then don't waste my time responding.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited July 2013
Well said to the OP and signed. You are not alone. I to have spend a hoard of money on this game but I too will be gone when and if this nerf goes live.
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axer128Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
A GF shouldn't be near a rogue in damage, a GF is a defender not a striker. Defenders are meant to take the hits, not do the damage, that's why they have the GWF. The big problem is they're trying to nerf a rogue trait that some people can't handle in a pvp match. Since they don't make pvp and pve mechanics separate that means that the rogue gets nerfed in pve as well. I'm glad I never relied on my stealth with my TR because the changes will make it very hard to solo pve content, or even help out in boss fights if stealth lasts 1-2 seconds because any attack will break it.
Sure.
If Rogues couldn't tank every boss in the game, with no GF int he party. Id' be all about that.
Sadly we don't play that game.
Rogues are also amazing tanks. Given that, some closeness in damage is REQUIRED for balance.
You can't have it all.
It's got nothing to do with pvp imo. It's a severe imbalance in pve. I actually believe the current game has awesome GF vs Rogue pvp balance - the top lurker rogues on the servers generally can't beat my GF - though they put up a great fight. Whereas a pure brute damage spec one can - with some great skill and timing.
Though on the other scale - fresh 60 all green GF vs TR = TR wins 100% of the time if he has any idea how to play. Least its balanced once geared well.
The balance issue for me, is PvE, not pvp.
The fact of the matter GF are so bad at certain PvE dungeons that I felt HORRIBLE even playing mine in cn - i mean subjecting to my friends and guildmates to that, - and keep in mind my insane ego that makes me believe i'm the best gf on the planet. Thats how bad they are compared to rogues.
Rogues could simply outperform GF in EVERY facet of pve in cn:
-Out cc me by helping the party survive better with smokebomb.
-Severely outdps me: at at the time (pre balance pass) there dps was insanely broken at around 4-5 TIMES mine.
-Out tank me: To add insult to injury, they are plain better tanks for the dracolich because they can lock on during wing buffet via duelist+ITC.. GF gets pushed back even blocking, resulting in more dragon movement and less dps. Plus his attacks are so slow and infrequent, they can all be dodge reach means a rogue needs zero healing to tank.
I couldn't even play it (my gf in cn) anymore knowing that. I had to roll an alt just to continue to PvE (rolled up a CW since they are dead required for CN).
Again I don't condone nerfing anything to fix it. They should instead buff other classes, but it is a severe issue when the game forces you not to take a tank because another class tanks better, and deals 4x there dps.
Just to clear a few things up:
1. I'm not a HAMSTER house husband
2. I never mentioned rage quitting
3. Comparing this nerf to the DC nerf isn't apples to apples. I'm also a DC and agree with that poster. That being said, TR have already had their "best" daily nerfed. Now they want to nerf us again, and again and again.
4. I'd argue the target demo all day. You're absolutely right that this company values and spends a considerable amount of money attracting the casual $10 per month player. However, the middle aged D&D (or Star Trek, or Comic Book) fan that has the ability to drop a few hundred bucks any time they feel like it is their target demo. Want to argue this more? Look at all the spiders running around. You can't argue that.
5. This "nerf" doesn't really affect me all that much. I don't use Lurkers during the trash phase because I hate the visuals. I also don't use Lurkers on a few different bosses. The thing that irks me the most is: nerfing a class to satisfy the minority (PVP) of players while hurting the majority (PVE) of players. That's just stupid, plain and simple. This isn't a PVP game! This is D&D. No further argument needed on my thread about that subject. I'm right, you're wrong. If you want to go play balanced PVP go play LoL.
Once again, if this company decides to hurt the majority of it's player base by catering to the minority I am done spending. Period. For the reading imparied: That doesn't mean rage quit, that just means that I will put my money where my mouth is and make a point. I know I will not be alone, and once they realize the base they have pissed off I guarantee you they will reconsider.
I will not spend one single additional cent on your game(s) if you continue to cater to the minority (PVP) crowd in your patches, if in the process it hurts the majority (PVE) of the gamers.
There are other threads to discuss the nerf and its necessities, but I do like to add a point.
I don't know if it's because of the pvp-whining, although it does look like it. But at least there is some kind of unbalancing problem, and it seems a lot of folks are trying to figure out what that is and give alternatives besides nerfing the heck out of a class.
And THAT's exactly my point. Nerfing upsets players. It takes something away they worked hard for to gain and to master. RPG games are all about developing your character to get stronger, better and have acces to other powers. Getting nerfed is like being told to strip down, go back to start and do not collect $200..... simply because someone else thinks you are too strong.
It's the easy way out, a cop-out, lazy and unimaginative. It will ALWAYS hurt players, and they will not be happy about it.
Buffing, on the other hand, does tend to make players happy. And the devs could just have easily chosen to go that route. Yet next to some tweaks and fixes to broken skills, the devs are ONLY NERFING.
I'm worried about this not because I play a TR, but because I play all 5 classes. If this is the default line of reasoning of the devs.... it is a very bad sign for the future of this game because every class that will be deemed OP at one time or another will be subjected to the nerf bat.
Which of course won't really fix anything to do with the ubergear and uberenchants, so this bloody merry go round will continue. Leaving players from every class unhappy, until they've gathered enough Zen to get the same ubergear and uberenchants.
Before the astral shield nerf, i used to be an incompetent DC player. I wasn't able to solo heal castle never with multiple mobs packs pull. Now, i can do that. Yes, the best DC spell has been nerfed, and overally, most DCs have become better players. I'm pretty sure most TR players will adapt, learn to use different spells, different gear, and so on.
Nerfs aren't always bad, even from the pve perspective. If a spell is in everyone's spell bar, then it's likely to be OP and deserves a balance check.
It's hilarious when certain Clerics keep thinking this Rogue nerf is comparable to what they did to Clerics.
Cryptic nerfed Astral Shield's duration and made it so that you can't stack 2 Astral Shields' damage reduction while in Divinity mode. You can still stack the damage reduction if 1 AS is blue and the other is yellow.
Cryptic did not destroy the Cleric class by nerfing their heals at all. That's what they're trying to do to Rogues. They're nerfing Rogues' damage AND ability to do damage while in stealth. Multiple class-breaking nerfs in 1 patch. This is after they've already heavily nerfed Rogue damage output once already.
This is not balancing. It's a complete gutting of the Rogue class and its core mechanics.
Uninformed players think Rogues can tank with Impossible to Catch when it only lasts for 5 seconds.
Rogues have 20-24% damage reduction when geared out, while GFs, GWFs, and Clerics have 35-50% damage reduction. Rogues have 17-22% Deflection when geared out and spec'd for it, while GFs and GWFs have 40-48% Deflection.
Rogues don't have spammable Unstoppable that gives 25-50% additional damage reduction AND temporary HP. Rogues don't have Block with a slow depleting Block meter that completely mitigates all damage and CCs from every skill in this game whenever they feel like pressing Tab.
How are GFs whining about Rogues being better tanks than them? How bad of a GF do you have to be to post something so ridiculous?
Anyone who posts on the forums for any game is not of the mindset of the majority of its players. Do not listen to the vocal minority.
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wraithynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 53
edited August 2013
Get agro
Bait and switch
Go stealth and do damage
When dummy dies pop impossible to catch preferably before stealth runs out and do more damage
Dodge until bars refresh and repeat
Alternate Lurkers in while dummy is alive for additional damage. Many don't like to do this step because Lurkers makes it very difficulty to see red zones. I've experienced the same so only use Lurkers when the battle is in hand.
Of course this is a stealth build with a ton of recovery, I don't know how you'd do it without stealth. A lot more kiting than tanking likely. And of course this build will be totally defunct with the proposed changes.
It's the easy way out, a cop-out, lazy and unimaginative. It will ALWAYS hurt players, and they will not be happy about it.
Buffing, on the other hand, does tend to make players happy. And the devs could just have easily chosen to go that route. Yet next to some tweaks and fixes to broken skills, the devs are ONLY NERFING.
Yes, nerfing IS the "easy way out", that's why the company "fixes" the game this way: since it IS easier to do. It simply is CHEAPER. Consider the time it takes to evaluate buffing all the other classes, monsters, traps and what not vs. the time it takes to evaluate the nerfing of a couple of powers / specs. The reason why it is done that way: Money.
A nerf went fubar? Just adjust-reverse it. You lose what? Two hours of coding and perhaps a week of evaluating? Now consider an "all around buff" go wrong. How much do you lose on that? Certainly more than "a week worth of work".
Oh and btw: Don't expect threats like "I'm not going to spend any more money on your product" or something like that to impress anybody. It only sparcs flamewars and insults.
Yes, nerfing IS the "easy way out", that's why the company "fixes" the game this way: since it IS easier to do. It simply is CHEAPER. Consider the time it takes to evaluate buffing all the other classes, monsters, traps and what not vs. the time it takes to evaluate the nerfing of a couple of powers / specs. The reason why it is done that way: Money.
A nerf went fubar? Just adjust-reverse it. You lose what? Two hours of coding and perhaps a week of evaluating? Now consider an "all around buff" go wrong. How much do you lose on that? Certainly more than "a week worth of work".
Oh and btw: Don't expect threats like "I'm not going to spend any more money on your product" or something like that to impress anybody. It only sparcs flamewars and insults.
Demmit, you actually make a good point.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
edited August 2013
Easy fix, provide all the other classes with the capability to possibly see the sneaking TR when they are sneaking and moving about. Not auto-see mind you, but a FEAT tree, that allows them to add the skill, and perhaps something like Runestones/Enchantments that they could add to their equipment to increase it.
Say 20% for the first feat, +5% per additional to 40% max. Then, allow Head Gear and Cloaks to have (Alertness?) Enchantments to add up to an additional 20% each. Even fully specced out to be a "Watcher", the PvP player would only have a 80% chance to see a Sneaking Trickster Rogue.
Keep the ability for PvE, where it helps defeat the Bosses.
Oh, and some Bosses could have the same Feat Tree/Enchantments to make them a bit tougher. (*Insert Evil DM Grin*)
Psyb3rTr011
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
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axer128Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Uninformed players think Rogues can tank with Impossible to Catch when it only lasts for 5 seconds.
Rogues have 20-24% damage reduction when geared out, while GFs, GWFs, and Clerics have 35-50% damage reduction. Rogues have 17-22% Deflection when geared out and spec'd for it, while GFs and GWFs have 40-48% Deflection.
Rogues don't have spammable Unstoppable that gives 25-50% additional damage reduction AND temporary HP. Rogues don't have Block with a slow depleting Block meter that completely mitigates all damage and CCs from every skill in this game whenever they feel like pressing Tab.
How are GFs whining about Rogues being better tanks than them? How bad of a GF do you have to be to post something so ridiculous?
It's pretty freakin simple:
Bosses attack ultra slow. Rogues can dodge EVERY attack.
Bosses with powerful knockbacks like dragons - rogues tank BETTER because they can hold them in place and not get knocked back via ITC+Duelists. A GF blocking said attack STILL gets knocked back - causing the boss to potentially lose positionining, which in say the most popular/rewarding dungeon (CN) - is critical.
-Adds come towards the boss, but they NEED to be away so the CW/DC can get AP off them/not wipe the group. GF/GWF standard/strongest attacks are aoe - rogues are single target, far more ideal to tanking a boss.
The fact is yes a GF can take a ton more hits, but the games bosses are so easy to the point where no one tanking them needs to take a single hit. Plus the ones that do hit hard enough like the dracolich - will often 1 shot GFs just the same as TRs anyways with his special (hands), so its pointless to have the extra mitigation. (Though a rogue with itc up will survive it).
And your made up statistics hardly tell anything.
Rogues are insanely durable because there deflection severity is 50% more effective then GF. And with itc used from stealth, that 5 second invulnerability is far superior to any defensive ability GFs have.
As for how bad of a GF i am - Countless people have commented towards the fact im the best they've ever seen. 16k+ gearscore, beat everything in the game, won countless pvp matches. Yea Im that bad. I rolled up a CW after beating a few CNs in my guild on my GF because of how bad I felt forcing them to take such an inferior class along. It's not about skill, it's an huge imbalance in the game.
Don't mind that much as it's an issue isolated to easy bosses.. So they can fix it with future content by making the bosses hard enough.
Just have to hope like hell they make the malabog bosses tough enough to warrant taking a guardian along.
Just to get my point across: I'm a single guy in his young 30's with a rather large amount of disposable income for my age bracket. I have purchased: Absolutely nothing. Feel free to look at my character(s) as I'm sure you have the ability to verify these things. I have 14 character slots on 7 accounts, 12 of them are currently utilized. I do not bot, exploit, cheat or steal that much. To sum it up, I'm your customer. If you have a target demo on a white board somewhere in your office, I'd be creeped out if you had my face on it.
One of my favorite and first or fifth class is a TR. Rather than whine, rant or give you empty threats about "quitting" and a supposed mass exodus from the game regarding this new patch note I thought I'd give you a promise I can deliver upon.
I will not spend one single additional cent on your game(s) if you continue to makes changes in hopes of balancing in your patches. Creating a situation where the TR no longer renders a GWF or GF practically useless in some situations in PVE is unacceptable.
Anyone serious about PVE plays other games (Hello Kitty Online comes to mind). There is absolutely no reason for you to continue to bring balance to the game by toning down overpowered abilities of the class that is in the top five of my favorite.
I use Lurker's assault quite a lot because I'm intelligent and know wtf I'm doing, I don't use Whirlwind because I'm there to utilize lurker's assault to dispatch the champ mobs quickly, not waste my daily on low health trash mobs. I do however rely on stealth, and the ability to use my at-wills from steals without coming out of stealth. I was slightly miffed when you made changes to balance the TR and many other classes the last few times. If you make changes to balance it again this hard, you will continue to not receive any funding for your company (this is the only game I play), and I assure you that I'm not the only one playing for free.
Signed,
Such a arogant post.. U have dodge like everyone else. If u need godmode for survive dungeon than is something wrong with dungeons. I dont have problem with trs dmg in pvp, they are suppose to do big dmg, but not to be untargetable. This is bulls..t. I never saw in any other game.
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kantazo1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TR fans will say : "GF or GWF can take much more hits"
Thats is completely true, no doubt. But they forget to mention "while TR didnt take a single hit" (thanks to their mechanics and encounters)
Another little piece of info: there was TR crying GWF got 40% deflect, yes they can have up to 50% deflect chance if they spec and stack. However you forgot to mention GWF takes twice as much damage on succesful deflect then TR do.
Comments
Also I do think the nerfs were over the top even if LA makes me motion sick and drove me to wearing a bright red bow on my tail just so I could keep track of which white blop was me. However this whole situation has made me research a great deal about my class and I realized a few things.
1. this is NOT a perma-stealth pvp driven nerf it does not touch, Targeting dummy, impossible to catch, stealth strike, or smoke bomb. this nerf seems to be targeting the top 3 powers ALL builds combined, LA, Duelist, and COS are in both stealth and executioner builds and are probably naturally favorites of the average Joe, even before I ever looked at a guide I had these 3 powers maxxed even in spite of LA making me cross-eyed cause it seemed effective for bosses.
2. according to people analyzing the test server they seem to be giving a 8% non crit damage bonus to powers so this does offset a LOT of the damage numbers not involving Lurkers directly. COS will be doing more damage with each individual dagger but not have a 12 dagger payoff. so this could make other powers that seemed Meh or worthless before an advantage...like whirlwind or path of blades.
My advice is let the patch come out analyse the changes look at new build guides before shouting the sky is falling cause...it might end up just fine for rogues.
You are wrong. You are far from beeing the "ideal customer".
You noticed flaws in this game and/or it's developers and reacted in an appropriate manner.
The ideal customer of this "game" and it's publishing companies is very dull and short-minded (I refused to use "f u ck ing stupid" because that would have been inappropriate and offensive so I went with with "dull and short-minded")
You on the other hand seem to have understood this companies "business model".
I have to say I'm with you on this one. I've dropped over $800 so far and god only knows how much on STO, (life time member) DDO found out the hard way that they would get no more funding for there big improvements aka Stealth nerfs. To many other games out there.
They might not care if 10, 20 or 30 people dont spend anymore money but when your Black ink go's Red they will. Money Talks B.S walks
We want to kill stuff, we want big hits, we want super powers, we want buffs and not nerfs. Who is in charge over there, you should be focused on BUFFING other classes to equal that of a TR, that way everyone wins.
If changes like this go into the game, I plan on moving to another game sooner than later. There is no way I want to invest my time into characters that get axed like this.
Please reconsider.
Nerfs aren't always bad, even from the pve perspective. If a spell is in everyone's spell bar, then it's likely to be OP and deserves a balance check.
Certain things are always in the bar because the alternatives are HAMSTER, or only worth using on certain encounters. That doesn't always mean it's op. What happens when another spell is the go-to spell? Nerf that as well? Might as well just nerf everything, again and again.
You learned your class. If you couldn't heal properly with astral seal the way it used to be, then you didn't know your class, and that's your fault. There are plenty of dc's that DID know their class before the nerf. That doesn't mean there was a problem with the spell itself.
Sure.
If Rogues couldn't tank every boss in the game, with no GF int he party. Id' be all about that.
Sadly we don't play that game.
Rogues are also amazing tanks. Given that, some closeness in damage is REQUIRED for balance.
You can't have it all.
It's got nothing to do with pvp imo. It's a severe imbalance in pve. I actually believe the current game has awesome GF vs Rogue pvp balance - the top lurker rogues on the servers generally can't beat my GF - though they put up a great fight. Whereas a pure brute damage spec one can - with some great skill and timing.
Though on the other scale - fresh 60 all green GF vs TR = TR wins 100% of the time if he has any idea how to play. Least its balanced once geared well.
The balance issue for me, is PvE, not pvp.
The fact of the matter GF are so bad at certain PvE dungeons that I felt HORRIBLE even playing mine in cn - i mean subjecting to my friends and guildmates to that, - and keep in mind my insane ego that makes me believe i'm the best gf on the planet. Thats how bad they are compared to rogues.
Rogues could simply outperform GF in EVERY facet of pve in cn:
-Out cc me by helping the party survive better with smokebomb.
-Severely outdps me: at at the time (pre balance pass) there dps was insanely broken at around 4-5 TIMES mine.
-Out tank me: To add insult to injury, they are plain better tanks for the dracolich because they can lock on during wing buffet via duelist+ITC.. GF gets pushed back even blocking, resulting in more dragon movement and less dps. Plus his attacks are so slow and infrequent, they can all be dodge reach means a rogue needs zero healing to tank.
I couldn't even play it (my gf in cn) anymore knowing that. I had to roll an alt just to continue to PvE (rolled up a CW since they are dead required for CN).
Again I don't condone nerfing anything to fix it. They should instead buff other classes, but it is a severe issue when the game forces you not to take a tank because another class tanks better, and deals 4x there dps.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
1. I'm not a HAMSTER house husband
2. I never mentioned rage quitting
3. Comparing this nerf to the DC nerf isn't apples to apples. I'm also a DC and agree with that poster. That being said, TR have already had their "best" daily nerfed. Now they want to nerf us again, and again and again.
4. I'd argue the target demo all day. You're absolutely right that this company values and spends a considerable amount of money attracting the casual $10 per month player. However, the middle aged D&D (or Star Trek, or Comic Book) fan that has the ability to drop a few hundred bucks any time they feel like it is their target demo. Want to argue this more? Look at all the spiders running around. You can't argue that.
5. This "nerf" doesn't really affect me all that much. I don't use Lurkers during the trash phase because I hate the visuals. I also don't use Lurkers on a few different bosses. The thing that irks me the most is: nerfing a class to satisfy the minority (PVP) of players while hurting the majority (PVE) of players. That's just stupid, plain and simple. This isn't a PVP game! This is D&D. No further argument needed on my thread about that subject. I'm right, you're wrong. If you want to go play balanced PVP go play LoL.
Once again, if this company decides to hurt the majority of it's player base by catering to the minority I am done spending. Period. For the reading imparied: That doesn't mean rage quit, that just means that I will put my money where my mouth is and make a point. I know I will not be alone, and once they realize the base they have pissed off I guarantee you they will reconsider.
Signed,
Your target demographic
There are other threads to discuss the nerf and its necessities, but I do like to add a point.
I don't know if it's because of the pvp-whining, although it does look like it. But at least there is some kind of unbalancing problem, and it seems a lot of folks are trying to figure out what that is and give alternatives besides nerfing the heck out of a class.
And THAT's exactly my point. Nerfing upsets players. It takes something away they worked hard for to gain and to master. RPG games are all about developing your character to get stronger, better and have acces to other powers. Getting nerfed is like being told to strip down, go back to start and do not collect $200..... simply because someone else thinks you are too strong.
It's the easy way out, a cop-out, lazy and unimaginative. It will ALWAYS hurt players, and they will not be happy about it.
Buffing, on the other hand, does tend to make players happy. And the devs could just have easily chosen to go that route. Yet next to some tweaks and fixes to broken skills, the devs are ONLY NERFING.
I'm worried about this not because I play a TR, but because I play all 5 classes. If this is the default line of reasoning of the devs.... it is a very bad sign for the future of this game because every class that will be deemed OP at one time or another will be subjected to the nerf bat.
Which of course won't really fix anything to do with the ubergear and uberenchants, so this bloody merry go round will continue. Leaving players from every class unhappy, until they've gathered enough Zen to get the same ubergear and uberenchants.
They just solo boss 1 on 1, no tanking, lol
It's hilarious when certain Clerics keep thinking this Rogue nerf is comparable to what they did to Clerics.
Cryptic nerfed Astral Shield's duration and made it so that you can't stack 2 Astral Shields' damage reduction while in Divinity mode. You can still stack the damage reduction if 1 AS is blue and the other is yellow.
Cryptic did not destroy the Cleric class by nerfing their heals at all. That's what they're trying to do to Rogues. They're nerfing Rogues' damage AND ability to do damage while in stealth. Multiple class-breaking nerfs in 1 patch. This is after they've already heavily nerfed Rogue damage output once already.
This is not balancing. It's a complete gutting of the Rogue class and its core mechanics.
Uninformed players think Rogues can tank with Impossible to Catch when it only lasts for 5 seconds.
Rogues have 20-24% damage reduction when geared out, while GFs, GWFs, and Clerics have 35-50% damage reduction. Rogues have 17-22% Deflection when geared out and spec'd for it, while GFs and GWFs have 40-48% Deflection.
Rogues don't have spammable Unstoppable that gives 25-50% additional damage reduction AND temporary HP. Rogues don't have Block with a slow depleting Block meter that completely mitigates all damage and CCs from every skill in this game whenever they feel like pressing Tab.
How are GFs whining about Rogues being better tanks than them? How bad of a GF do you have to be to post something so ridiculous?
Bait and switch
Go stealth and do damage
When dummy dies pop impossible to catch preferably before stealth runs out and do more damage
Dodge until bars refresh and repeat
Alternate Lurkers in while dummy is alive for additional damage. Many don't like to do this step because Lurkers makes it very difficulty to see red zones. I've experienced the same so only use Lurkers when the battle is in hand.
Of course this is a stealth build with a ton of recovery, I don't know how you'd do it without stealth. A lot more kiting than tanking likely. And of course this build will be totally defunct with the proposed changes.
A nerf went fubar? Just adjust-reverse it. You lose what? Two hours of coding and perhaps a week of evaluating? Now consider an "all around buff" go wrong. How much do you lose on that? Certainly more than "a week worth of work".
Oh and btw: Don't expect threats like "I'm not going to spend any more money on your product" or something like that to impress anybody. It only sparcs flamewars and insults.
Demmit, you actually make a good point.
Say 20% for the first feat, +5% per additional to 40% max. Then, allow Head Gear and Cloaks to have (Alertness?) Enchantments to add up to an additional 20% each. Even fully specced out to be a "Watcher", the PvP player would only have a 80% chance to see a Sneaking Trickster Rogue.
Keep the ability for PvE, where it helps defeat the Bosses.
Oh, and some Bosses could have the same Feat Tree/Enchantments to make them a bit tougher. (*Insert Evil DM Grin*)
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
It's pretty freakin simple:
Bosses attack ultra slow. Rogues can dodge EVERY attack.
Bosses with powerful knockbacks like dragons - rogues tank BETTER because they can hold them in place and not get knocked back via ITC+Duelists. A GF blocking said attack STILL gets knocked back - causing the boss to potentially lose positionining, which in say the most popular/rewarding dungeon (CN) - is critical.
-Adds come towards the boss, but they NEED to be away so the CW/DC can get AP off them/not wipe the group. GF/GWF standard/strongest attacks are aoe - rogues are single target, far more ideal to tanking a boss.
The fact is yes a GF can take a ton more hits, but the games bosses are so easy to the point where no one tanking them needs to take a single hit. Plus the ones that do hit hard enough like the dracolich - will often 1 shot GFs just the same as TRs anyways with his special (hands), so its pointless to have the extra mitigation. (Though a rogue with itc up will survive it).
And your made up statistics hardly tell anything.
Rogues are insanely durable because there deflection severity is 50% more effective then GF. And with itc used from stealth, that 5 second invulnerability is far superior to any defensive ability GFs have.
As for how bad of a GF i am - Countless people have commented towards the fact im the best they've ever seen. 16k+ gearscore, beat everything in the game, won countless pvp matches. Yea Im that bad. I rolled up a CW after beating a few CNs in my guild on my GF because of how bad I felt forcing them to take such an inferior class along. It's not about skill, it's an huge imbalance in the game.
Don't mind that much as it's an issue isolated to easy bosses.. So they can fix it with future content by making the bosses hard enough.
Just have to hope like hell they make the malabog bosses tough enough to warrant taking a guardian along.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Just to get my point across: I'm a single guy in his young 30's with a rather large amount of disposable income for my age bracket. I have purchased: Absolutely nothing. Feel free to look at my character(s) as I'm sure you have the ability to verify these things. I have 14 character slots on 7 accounts, 12 of them are currently utilized. I do not bot, exploit, cheat or steal that much. To sum it up, I'm your customer. If you have a target demo on a white board somewhere in your office, I'd be creeped out if you had my face on it.
One of my favorite and first or fifth class is a TR. Rather than whine, rant or give you empty threats about "quitting" and a supposed mass exodus from the game regarding this new patch note I thought I'd give you a promise I can deliver upon.
I will not spend one single additional cent on your game(s) if you continue to makes changes in hopes of balancing in your patches. Creating a situation where the TR no longer renders a GWF or GF practically useless in some situations in PVE is unacceptable.
Anyone serious about PVE plays other games (Hello Kitty Online comes to mind). There is absolutely no reason for you to continue to bring balance to the game by toning down overpowered abilities of the class that is in the top five of my favorite.
I use Lurker's assault quite a lot because I'm intelligent and know wtf I'm doing, I don't use Whirlwind because I'm there to utilize lurker's assault to dispatch the champ mobs quickly, not waste my daily on low health trash mobs. I do however rely on stealth, and the ability to use my at-wills from steals without coming out of stealth. I was slightly miffed when you made changes to balance the TR and many other classes the last few times. If you make changes to balance it again this hard, you will continue to not receive any funding for your company (this is the only game I play), and I assure you that I'm not the only one playing for free.
Signed,
One of your demographic
When you run a dungeon and the AOE monster GWF is behind the TR in damage (minus the boss dps) then one of two things need to happen.
1) Lower DPS of TR.
2) Increase DPS of GWF.
I will let you guess which one they pick.
Thats is completely true, no doubt. But they forget to mention "while TR didnt take a single hit" (thanks to their mechanics and encounters)
Another little piece of info: there was TR crying GWF got 40% deflect, yes they can have up to 50% deflect chance if they spec and stack. However you forgot to mention GWF takes twice as much damage on succesful deflect then TR do.