Having reviewed the RoC and the PWE ToS, I can't find any mention of P2W discussions. Is this just something you personally don't like or perhaps an initiative from some other front encouraging you to censor discussions?
I have always been impressed that the moderators would err on the side of discussion in so much as they could and still maintain order with only a few exceptions.
Does this mark an end of that trend?
Criticizing the fundamental business model of the game is not helpful and is well within the moderators' function to moderate.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This argument fails to account for the game being developed actually having to be good. It's always some excuse other than the games themselves just aren't that good. The pay model, players, dev time, blah blah blah. The bottom line is in 10 years, the MMO's that have come out other than WoW and a small handful of others just plain suck. If a chef wants to be the next Gordon Ramsey or Mario Batali etc they actually have to make their food GOOD!
There is no shortcut or other excuse, talent is required, and the truth simply is the mass of developers who just want to make games as their job lack passion and talent, then make excuses for why their games didn't sell, instead of realizing that their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> game is the problem, and until they do take that responsability, they will not improve, and the good will of gamer's to tolerate that has worn thin.
The subscription model is done for reasons that have nothing at all to do with what you just wrote. It has to do with hugely increased competition, a hugely fragmented playerbase split among many games, and an expectation that in order to justify a subscription a game needs to have the amount of content that a game released 10 years ago has coupled with the degree of quality that this specific company has been able to devote to that, from the beginning, based on a huge warchest of money from prior non-MMO games, as well as a very, shall we say, long-winded rollout schedule for that game.
Look -- the MMORPG business DOES. NOT. WORK. on a subscription basis for almost all games. As gamers we need to understand that and work with it, not hope that every frigging developer has the warchest of cash that Company B had, as well as the luxury of releasing its game when the market wasn't anything as competitive as this.
Criticism is fine and is needed. But criticism without any realistic ideas regarding alternatives that are not a charity idea are worse that useless.
Criticizing the fundamental business model of the game is not helpful and is well within the moderators' function to moderate.
I was asking the mod and your title says user (as does my own), however it was perhaps not the best tack to reach across the OP's point like that and despite your frank officiousness, you have given me a way back into the gist of the tread and for that I thank you most kindly.
I think criticizing ANY element of the game is useful in that people can judge if that criticism is true or not true.
If I say that having a horse makes reaching points in PVP much easier, people get to judge if that is a true statement or not. If I say that having a faster horse makes more of a difference, others can make up their own minds if that is true or not.
If I were to say however, so-and-so is a great big bananna-head. Well that would not really help the game and if I were to point out pedantry in another poster, that too would be useless from a development perspective.
So criticizing the game, even it's fundamental aspects lets the developers know that we can all see what is happening and what out opinions are of those processes. No one is saying that ours is the last word, that would be silly. But I think it is important for people to see what is happening. And these forums are for discussions about what we see in the game.
Take the title of this tread. Is it true or is it not true. That is what we are discussing. A core, fundamental part of the game and I very much hope the devs can know that we see what is happening.
You seem to have a highly distorted perception of reality.
Mount 30-40$ = HUGE advantage in pvp( I stopped playing this game after I realized how much P2W this game really is// played all CB weekends purchased 200 and 50 packs -.-. Stupid me, didn't research what PWE is about. Won't happen again, will not recommend any of this company products)
This is JUST ONE example. Now you are going to say: " But you can buy everything with ads which you can farm." .....Yeah right...enjoy farming for a couple of months to be able to play pvp.
Pretty much all reasonable(competitive) players/people have figured that out long ago and discontinued playing this asiagrinder cashgrab. The people left playing either don't care don't comprehend or are bots.
Have a nice day
You dont have to buy Mounts in Cash Shops. You can buy Nightmare Inferno for AD in AH. No one forces you to buy t in AH, you have to work for it, run dungeons, sell items, buy Nightmare Inferno.
I guess common sense are not very common at this time huh? This game is created by a company that is why they sell items in Item Mall, this is business. This game is not created by a CHARITY.
There's three ways to do things, the right way, the wrong way and the way that I do it.
Look -- the MMORPG business DOES. NOT. WORK. on a subscription basis for almost all games. As gamers we need to understand that and work with it, not hope that every frigging developer has the warchest of cash that Company B had, as well as the luxury of releasing its game when the market wasn't anything as competitive as this.
.
And here from the stunning double post is the same argument you have seen many times over. The company made a game ladies and gents and it is up to YOU to pay for it. For no particular reason really, they made it, they run it, and they maintain it but its up to YOU to fund it.
To this thought I must respectfully and loquaciously say, “Nuh-uh!” It is indeed not for me to fund their company. If they would like to offer me some stock options and some percentage of ownership then I would feel quite the compulsion to see that the finances were in good working order but as it stands I am a customer.
I am here to be wooed, to be convinced and impressed. Failing that I owe this company nothing.
But criticism without any realistic ideas regarding alternatives that are not a charity idea are worse that useless.
I would beg to differ. Let us say that customer A is unhappy with the product being offered here, and makes a post on the forums stating just that fact, and offers his/her opinion on how it could be done better.
Customer B does the very same thing, but since he/she does not have any idea on how to do it better, their complaint is somehow less valid?
Customer C is in the same boat, but instead keeps quiet, as he/she also has no idea how to do it better.
The company now knows two customers are displeased with the same thing, and it's not just a fluke, but has no idea about the third.
Voicing your displeasure with a product is always useful to both consumer and producer. Always.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And here from the stunning double post is the same argument you have seen many times over. The company made a game ladies and gents and it is up to YOU to pay for it. For no particular reason really, they made it, they run it, and they maintain it but its up to YOU to fund it.
To this thought I must respectfully and loquaciously say, “Nuh-uh!” It is indeed not for me to fund their company. If they would like to offer me some stock options and some percentage of ownership then I would feel quite the compulsion to see that the finances were in good working order but as it stands I am a customer.
I am here to be wooed, to be convinced and impressed. Failing that I owe this company nothing.
And neither do you.
You don't have to pay anything.
That. Is. The. Point.
Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is the garden variety "I don't like what I got for free, so I am complaining about what they are asking me to pay for", when in fact he does not need to pay for anything.
The game is content starved, Feywild is a beacon of light for those too bored to play with the lack of content and other issues that have been plaguing the game these past 6 weeks.
Having to pay for a new race? Not cool. These "packs" seem so devious and pricey! They've got a cash grabbing scheme plotted well for everything in this game it seems. The game has potential, but Cryptic appears simply in it for the money. I hate seeing games with potential have this happen to them.
I see Feywild as a ploy to keep people enticed so the carrot can be dangled above each player some more so people can further empty their pockets over time spending much more than they ever should on an online game for features that should be present anyways. Leave the store for cosmetics and convenience.
Le money talks, yet again. Still waiting on that Unstoppable bug to be fixed, or the older companions to survive more than one hit in an epic before I decide to purchase a stupid Ghost. Hint, I will not.
Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is the garden variety "I don't like what I got for free, so I am complaining about what they are asking me to pay for", when in fact he does not need to pay for anything.
I am afraid that no amount of punctuation will provide substance to a poor argument. Oh that it could though; the US keyboard has enough dots, dashes and commas to make you a phenomenologist.
The point, as discussed above, is pretty clearly seen by even the most garden variety of us. Perhaps I could turn your attention to the OP and get you to comment on the premise. No need to turn this into a conflict of personalities. This is a discussion in which even opposing parties get to posit and then defend their position with rational and supported arguments.
Having reviewed the RoC and the PWE ToS, I can't find any mention of P2W discussions. Is this just something you personally don't like or perhaps an initiative from some other front encouraging you to censor discussions?
I have always been impressed that the moderators would err on the side of discussion in so much as they could and still maintain order with only a few exceptions.
Does this mark an end of that trend?
What you missed is this sticky. It is considered an addendum to the RoC by reference and treated as such. For the record, the relevant post within that sticky was quoted as well to explain my statement.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
To all those saying that the game is fine because nobody is forcing us to spend real money.
Do you understand how much it kills the atmosphere of grinding for hours or days, when so many others are buying these same items with one click of a button, overloading the towns and elsewhere with these items.
If I work for a particular item my effort won't be known, it can easily be misunderstood that I took the easy way out - Why bother at that point? I want it to feel like an accomplishment. Isn't that the point?
The game announces when one gets an Inferno Nightmare, for example, even though it's through keys, still through Zen. You don't see the game inform you when a person gets this horse from the auction house - meaning money/luck (more money for more luck) is held higher than raw effort?
This all apart of a plan of pulling people in and pigeon-holing us into few options - either working hard for something, days to weeks of effort for a $30 equivalent item, or giving us the option to surrender our credit cards for easy access. I have no issues with working for something, I enjoy a grind, but why bother when I feel like my work won't be known or as though I'm a carbon cut out of the next guy.
I'm all for mounts, companions, item skins, but a variety of different items or mounts - some obtainable only in game would help fix this so free players can feel like they have something to work for that will be known.
Why should paying players have access to everything with ease?
This is a business they want to make moneys. Now are they <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people for as much as they can yes they are. Should they lower the cost on all the zen store stuff yes sure. Would i even think of waisting my money even if everything was lowered by 50% NO. Well unless the game got better they need to fix alot of things to get me to even think about spending any cash on this game.
I agree with most of what you say whoamark, I feel this game gates a lot of "basic commodities" around buying Zen, or buying Zen to get excess Astral Diamonds. Those items I'm talking about are inventory bags, bank slots, character slots, character respecs, and even changing the cosmetics of your gear. I understand as a Free to Play game, you need to make up ways to gain a cash flow, but doing so by applying real money costs to basic things such as what I listed feels...rather dirty, and hindering to one's gameplay experience.
They need to have different quest lines for each class, not just a couple, but the whole thing. It gets boring doing the same thing over and over on each class.
outright extorting me isn't really an option I can respect.
That is a pretty huge leap...allowing people to use a service for free while offering optional products for purchase is the new definition of, "extortion," huh ?
That is a pretty huge leap...allowing people to use a service for free while offering optional products for purchase is the new definition of, "extortion," huh ?
No you are not. You are a consumer and a potential customer.
Hyperbole you say? Well, it’s a fair cop. I shouldn’t be so dramatic. Its only extortion if I am dead set on crafting, or having enchants or decent companions in a reasonable timeframe. If I dump that idea or the game itself then the whole “have to” angle disappears.
What’s that? “Reasonable” means different things to different people? Well normally I would cede that, yes. But there is a pretty big spectrum beyond which excessive effort is just excessive. If I can get 3 seals in an half an hour of grinding and it takes no less than 40 seals to get the cheapest thing on the seal vendor then I have to grind for… lets see… double 3 to 6 for an hour, divide 40 by 6 and that’s 6.6 so lets call it 7.
I would have to grind for 7 hours straight to get that thing. I could take breaks but that would make it take longer than 7 hours. If you are tempted to say “Yes but its still possible” consider sitting where you are and reading this post, this one post by me, over and over and over for 7 hours straight. Possible yes, but why would you think it was reasonable?
For less direct transactions like Ads you must go in an even wider circle. Dailies are pretty minor so I think I can get away with discounting them all together. Which makes stuff and Zen your AD generators. Since the discussion seems to be about “free” let’s forget Zen and say stuff. How long does it take to get enough stuff to AH into Ads to get what you want? Pretty hard to say for me. There is the AH bid sniping that can help you get things and the tactic of booting players so that you get the dungeon loot. That can help you get ahead. Exploits, I suppose.
But I think the sheer number of things you have to do to get anything for “free” really speaks for itself as does the fact that conniving and underhanded methods seem to work best. Unfortunate. I wonder what percentage of these liars, thieves and bandits would be lying, thieving and…umm banditing, were not wards directly related to a real money equivalent, if enchants didn’t contribute so hugely to gameplay.
Maybe the term “free” shouldn’t be used. Perhaps it should be called an “Item Mall” game or a “Pay as you go” game. Then it seems like people would understand from the onset that at some point money would be expected from them or they could toil away in obscurity while the game and its paying players passes them by.
As for the consumer/customer comparison, in a very technical sense you are correct. But I would point out that every player is a consumer. Any given player may only ever be a customer for the millisecond it takes for money to exit their account and enter Cryptic’s and then they are right back to being a consumer. Welcome to the F2P dynamic. Paying gets you no special status. You are just another draw on the system with more stuff. So you can see how the difference is so academic as to be moot.
Subscription based games don't work economically for the developer unless (1) the playerbase is huge (WoW), or (2) the game was cheap to make (EvE Online) and has a sizeable enough playerbase to cover its costs, even though it is modest in comparison to WoW's, due to the game being a multiple niche game (space, sandbox, loot PvP).
No other MMOs have been successful with a sub model in the last ten years. Every single one needed to go F2P in some fashion. The reason is that a 3d ground-based MMORPG costs a lot to make and to continue to develop. The subscriber market is fragmented among many games, and (1) people don't want a 6 month grind to cap so (2) games are designed to cap relatively quickly, which means (3) most people move to a new game after a couple of months at the most. It is that way in EVERY game. Sub model does not work economically other than for Blizzard and, by sheer luck of being a trifecta niche game, CCP.
The MMO community needs to get smarter about the realities of the competition in this game space, and what it takes to actually produce games other than on a charity basis here.
Last 10 years of MMO's have sucked balls because of game design not Sub model. F2P games are so badly made they too fail after awhile. Of course a few exceptions but it is not due to Subscription model or F2P model it's just these games have just all out sucked ***.
Cryptic/PWE are a company that needs money/profit or were you thinking Neverwinter was funded by donations?
I think Cryptic/PWE should be funded by smart individuals who design and market a game that will be appealing and inclusive, enticing people to spend money by offering a wide variety of items that accentuate and enhance their gaming experience through diversity, expansiveness and character defining purchases.
I think Cryptic/PWE should not be funded by money-gated dead-end crafting mechanics, purposely obscure multiple-currency money sinks and the establishment of a second class of gamer both pve and pvp.
But that’s just my opinion.
I would like to offer a semantic correction if I may. The company doesn’t NEED to make money, it WANT’S to make money. At issue here is the way it’s going about it.
Clearly I believe that one way is better than the other but perhaps you differ with me on that.
the thing that bothers me is that they didn't bother to do any new classes at all before coming out with yet another RMT only purchase to be made for items that should have been available via AD acquisition or by daily prayer currency in the game already.
They took out the unicorn mount specifically for this pack and put it in a Real Cash only system of purchase. I can't even use my AD for this thing! That's bothersome enough but I've been waiting forever it seems for them to release a ranged ranger class and anything else DnD related to the game and to give us the excuse of not having the other classes balanced properly isn't a good enough excuse! Anyone who's ever dealt with game design before knows that the class balance thing is an ongoing process it's not done overnight and the game development shouldn't stop to wait for class balance before new classes are released!
So, I don't want more content patches, what I want and I think I speak for the majority is that they stop putting out RMT packages and put out new classes and I'd suggest they release a very large number of classes not 1-2 because we've been told by interviews from the beginning that they've been working on these classes since closed beta and that they'd release them shortly after launch...
I think Cryptic/PWE should be funded by smart individuals who design and market a game that will be appealing and inclusive, enticing people to spend money by offering a wide variety of items that accentuate and enhance their gaming experience through diversity, expansiveness and character defining purchases.
I think Cryptic/PWE should not be funded by money-gated dead-end crafting mechanics, purposely obscure multiple-currency money sinks and the establishment of a second class of gamer both pve and pvp.
But that’s just my opinion.
I would like to offer a semantic correction if I may. The company doesn’t NEED to make money, it WANT’S to make money. At issue here is the way it’s going about it.
Clearly I believe that one way is better than the other but perhaps you differ with me on that.
A "need" is something that is required for a given person/place/thing/what-have-you to continue existing. So yes, PWE NEEDS to make money in the same sense that I NEED to keep breathing. Now that's not to detract from the overall point, as it stands I find the game to be nothing short of shameful, and the lengths PWE is willing to go to is almost insulting to me. They definitely will not be seeing money from me again.
So yes, PWE NEEDS to make money in the same sense that I NEED to keep breathing.
I do not know you from Adam, but I place your life well ahead of PWE/Cryptic's continued existence. Matter of fact, both companies could go belly up tomorrow, or even two hours from the time of this posting and I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but even someone I never knew passing away is a tragedy.
Bad analogy, friend.
I'm with the person that stated "the company doesn't need to make money off this game" and the implied "to keep going". Consider, Cryptic has income from two other games. PWE has a much fuller stable of games to draw an income from as well. The income from this one game is not completely necessary for either company to stay afloat. Sure, it's nice, and it lines pockets...but it's not NEEDED.
I'm with the person that stated "the company doesn't need to make money off this game" and the implied "to keep going". Consider, Cryptic has income from two other games. PWE has a much fuller stable of games to draw an income from as well. The income from this one game is not completely necessary for either company to stay afloat. Sure, it's nice, and it lines pockets...but it's not NEEDED.
Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong post but the one I saw does not match your quoted statement, "the company doesn't need to make money off this game". It was, "The company doesn’t NEED to make money..."
No reference to income from this game specifically/exclusively. If continued existence is dependent on something then that something is a need. In this case PWE does need money or it will cease to exist.
That said, I expect that you are correct about whether or not the income from this game is needed.
I love when people state that games are content light... especially considering that even the big players don't add content at nearly the rate they're expecting here and with other F2P titles... Here's a brief timeline of gaps between expansions (new content) for the big boys...
Game goes live, March 16, 1999.
First expansion, April, 2000
Second Expansion, December, 2001
Average for each expansion since, 1 year in between, total of 19 expansion and game still going. Minor content updates (single zone or instances made available) intermittently mixed in.
The sequel that came out the same month as the next game in this list has released 9 expansions, 3 major content packs and a many minor (zone or few zone) content updates since November, 2004, but the average was still 4 months to 6 months between any major content updates.
Another game, that is not even as good as the previous (imho) but has many more customers.
Game release, November 23, 2004
Single zone content update, March 8, 2005
PVP zones added, June 7, 2005
Single zone content update, July 12, 2005
Single zone content update, September 13, 2005
Single zone content update, January 3, 2006
Expansion released, January 16, 2007
Single zone content update, May 22, 2007
Single zone content update, November 13, 2007
Expansion released, November 13, 2008
Single zone content update, April 14, 2009
Single zone content update. December 8, 2009
Expansion released, December 7, 2010
Single zone content update, June 28, 2011
Expansion released, September 25, 2012
Nothing of note since then.
If you break it down, in the 9 years, they have released 4 expansions and added 9 individual zones (note that does not account for zone changes and revamps). That's really not much and the average was around 5-6 months between actual content updates. So complaining about this game not having enough content 2 months into release is like complaining that your soda is empty 2 minutes after you received it because you sucked it down so fast that you couldn't possibly have really enjoyed it.
Recommendation: slow down, enjoy the content that is there. I seriously wish that games hadn't gone so easy mode, and leveling was actually difficult (or at least challenging) like it was in 1999-2000, when those that actually had reached the level cap in EQ were the minority, instead of those being level cap being the majority, like we're seeing in so many games that have come out since.
I love when people state that games are content light... especially considering that even the big players don't add content at nearly the rate they're expecting here and with other F2P titles... Here's a brief timeline of gaps between expansions (new content) for the big boys...
Game goes live, March 16, 1999.
First expansion, April, 2000
Second Expansion, December, 2001
Average for each expansion since, 1 year in between, total of 19 expansion and game still going. Minor content updates (single zone or instances made available) intermittently mixed in.
The sequel that came out the same month as the next game in this list has released 9 expansions, 3 major content packs and a many minor (zone or few zone) content updates since November, 2004, but the average was still 4 months to 6 months between any major content updates.
Another game, that is not even as good as the previous (imho) but has many more customers.
Game release, November 23, 2004
Single zone content update, March 8, 2005
PVP zones added, June 7, 2005
Single zone content update, July 12, 2005
Single zone content update, September 13, 2005
Single zone content update, January 3, 2006
Expansion released, January 16, 2007
Single zone content update, May 22, 2007
Single zone content update, November 13, 2007
Expansion released, November 13, 2008
Single zone content update, April 14, 2009
Single zone content update. December 8, 2009
Expansion released, December 7, 2010
Single zone content update, June 28, 2011
Expansion released, September 25, 2012
Nothing of note since then.
If you break it down, in the 9 years, they have released 4 expansions and added 9 individual zones (note that does not account for zone changes and revamps). That's really not much and the average was around 5-6 months between actual content updates. So complaining about this game not having enough content 2 months into release is like complaining that your soda is empty 2 minutes after you received it because you sucked it down so fast that you couldn't possibly have really enjoyed it.
Recommendation: slow down, enjoy the content that is there. I seriously wish that games hadn't gone so easy mode, and leveling was actually difficult (or at least challenging) like it was in 1999-2000, when those that actually had reached the level cap in EQ were the minority, instead of those being level cap being the majority, like we're seeing in so many games that have come out since.
Absolutely correct.
But...
(and this is a big but)
Any new game will be competing with games that have more content. It may not be seen as, "fair," that a new game will be compared to one with nine years of post launch development, but both are after the player's money. If a customer has fifteen(ish) bucks a month budgeted for gaming he will see that game Y offers ten times the content of game X. Obviously, if quantity of content is not his deciding factor this imbalance between two games doesn't really matter, but if amount of playable content is a major factor for him...well he might comment that game X seems content light.
the game is what 2 months old, geez its like people expect the game to have the content glut of wow in under a year. they are giving us 2 new races sun elves and moon elves the races are similar mechanically they just look slightly different so your paying for cosmetics
in fact sun elves which are free are mechanically better with a 2%ap bonus compared to the 1%ap bonus of the moon elf.
all games are in it for the money pwe is not a non profit organization, but Pwe is less greedy than some, WOW still charges 15$ a month and charged 60$ to play pandas. defiance started its game with 2 races they will be releasing an expiation pack that includes casti, also you don't see many FTP games with a zen exchange and AD driven AH, a lot of games make it so out of game purchses cannot be sold at all.
plus these type of posts probably just get ignored by devs anyhow only people who see them is know it alls like me and fellow trolls.
The game is 6 months old. Why people keep kidding themselves by saying the game was released at the "official release" is silly. The REAL release was with the start of open beta. And vrtesseract I've seen you put the exact same comment on multiple posts , why don't you say something new.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
The game is 6 months old. Why people keep kidding themselves by saying the game was released at the "official release" is silly. The REAL release was with the start of open beta. And vrtesseract I've seen you put the exact same comment on multiple posts , why don't you say something new.
Other subscription MMOs aren't good examples, IMO. Look at something that didn't have any subs from the get-go, like Guild Wars. And remember, not only did you need to buy each expansion, but they also have a cash shop.
1st campaign on 4/2005
2nd on 4/2006
3rd on 10/2006
4th on 8/2007
And that was it. Yeah, they had holiday events and such, but not a lot of content additions otherwise. I mean, that was a full 6 months to a year between campaigns. They were full other continents with new professions/classes and such, but they also recycled a lot of assets.
Regardless, even though NW's Open Beta was more of a soft launch, (what with the cash shop being active and all), it was still a period of testing and tweaking, (hence why no new content was added during that time).
Don't get me wrong - I think the price of many items in the Zen store is out of whack, but all that means is that Cryptic/PWE won't get my money. I'm still enjoying what they do give me for free, or at whatever price I do feel is fair...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Other subscription MMOs aren't good examples, IMO. Look at something that didn't have any subs from the get-go, like Guild Wars. And remember, not only did you need to buy each expansion, but they also have a cash shop.
1st campaign on 4/2005
2nd on 4/2006
3rd on 10/2006
4th on 8/2007
And that was it. Yeah, they had holiday events and such, but not a lot of content additions otherwise. I mean, that was a full 6 months to a year between campaigns. They were full other continents with new professions/classes and such, but they also recycled a lot of assets.
I suppose we will have to see if NW's expansions can compare to getting more than a dozen new zones, new endgame instances, significant numbers of new weapon skins, a couple of dozen new armor sets, two new classes, per GW1 campaign.
Keep in mind that GW1's cash shop doesn't include things like bag space, bags, gear (other than cosmetic skins), and so on.
Regardless, even though NW's Open Beta was more of a soft launch, (what with the cash shop being active and all), it was still a period of testing and tweaking, (hence why no new content was added during that time).
Don't get me wrong - I think the price of many items in the Zen store is out of whack, but all that means is that Cryptic/PWE won't get my money. I'm still enjoying what they do give me for free, or at whatever price I do feel is fair...
Comments
Some topics, like goodbye threads, just almost invariably go bad.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Criticizing the fundamental business model of the game is not helpful and is well within the moderators' function to moderate.
The subscription model is done for reasons that have nothing at all to do with what you just wrote. It has to do with hugely increased competition, a hugely fragmented playerbase split among many games, and an expectation that in order to justify a subscription a game needs to have the amount of content that a game released 10 years ago has coupled with the degree of quality that this specific company has been able to devote to that, from the beginning, based on a huge warchest of money from prior non-MMO games, as well as a very, shall we say, long-winded rollout schedule for that game.
Look -- the MMORPG business DOES. NOT. WORK. on a subscription basis for almost all games. As gamers we need to understand that and work with it, not hope that every frigging developer has the warchest of cash that Company B had, as well as the luxury of releasing its game when the market wasn't anything as competitive as this.
Criticism is fine and is needed. But criticism without any realistic ideas regarding alternatives that are not a charity idea are worse that useless.
I was asking the mod and your title says user (as does my own), however it was perhaps not the best tack to reach across the OP's point like that and despite your frank officiousness, you have given me a way back into the gist of the tread and for that I thank you most kindly.
I think criticizing ANY element of the game is useful in that people can judge if that criticism is true or not true.
If I say that having a horse makes reaching points in PVP much easier, people get to judge if that is a true statement or not. If I say that having a faster horse makes more of a difference, others can make up their own minds if that is true or not.
If I were to say however, so-and-so is a great big bananna-head. Well that would not really help the game and if I were to point out pedantry in another poster, that too would be useless from a development perspective.
So criticizing the game, even it's fundamental aspects lets the developers know that we can all see what is happening and what out opinions are of those processes. No one is saying that ours is the last word, that would be silly. But I think it is important for people to see what is happening. And these forums are for discussions about what we see in the game.
Take the title of this tread. Is it true or is it not true. That is what we are discussing. A core, fundamental part of the game and I very much hope the devs can know that we see what is happening.
You dont have to buy Mounts in Cash Shops. You can buy Nightmare Inferno for AD in AH. No one forces you to buy t in AH, you have to work for it, run dungeons, sell items, buy Nightmare Inferno.
I guess common sense are not very common at this time huh? This game is created by a company that is why they sell items in Item Mall, this is business. This game is not created by a CHARITY.
And here from the stunning double post is the same argument you have seen many times over. The company made a game ladies and gents and it is up to YOU to pay for it. For no particular reason really, they made it, they run it, and they maintain it but its up to YOU to fund it.
To this thought I must respectfully and loquaciously say, “Nuh-uh!” It is indeed not for me to fund their company. If they would like to offer me some stock options and some percentage of ownership then I would feel quite the compulsion to see that the finances were in good working order but as it stands I am a customer.
I am here to be wooed, to be convinced and impressed. Failing that I owe this company nothing.
And neither do you.
I would beg to differ. Let us say that customer A is unhappy with the product being offered here, and makes a post on the forums stating just that fact, and offers his/her opinion on how it could be done better.
Customer B does the very same thing, but since he/she does not have any idea on how to do it better, their complaint is somehow less valid?
Customer C is in the same boat, but instead keeps quiet, as he/she also has no idea how to do it better.
The company now knows two customers are displeased with the same thing, and it's not just a fluke, but has no idea about the third.
Voicing your displeasure with a product is always useful to both consumer and producer. Always.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
You don't have to pay anything.
That. Is. The. Point.
Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is the garden variety "I don't like what I got for free, so I am complaining about what they are asking me to pay for", when in fact he does not need to pay for anything.
Le money talks, yet again. Still waiting on that Unstoppable bug to be fixed, or the older companions to survive more than one hit in an epic before I decide to purchase a stupid Ghost. Hint, I will not.
I am afraid that no amount of punctuation will provide substance to a poor argument. Oh that it could though; the US keyboard has enough dots, dashes and commas to make you a phenomenologist.
The point, as discussed above, is pretty clearly seen by even the most garden variety of us. Perhaps I could turn your attention to the OP and get you to comment on the premise. No need to turn this into a conflict of personalities. This is a discussion in which even opposing parties get to posit and then defend their position with rational and supported arguments.
Lets just count as a foul ball tip and give you another chance to make some sense, to the premise of the thread this time.
What you missed is this sticky. It is considered an addendum to the RoC by reference and treated as such. For the record, the relevant post within that sticky was quoted as well to explain my statement.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Do you understand how much it kills the atmosphere of grinding for hours or days, when so many others are buying these same items with one click of a button, overloading the towns and elsewhere with these items.
If I work for a particular item my effort won't be known, it can easily be misunderstood that I took the easy way out - Why bother at that point? I want it to feel like an accomplishment. Isn't that the point?
The game announces when one gets an Inferno Nightmare, for example, even though it's through keys, still through Zen. You don't see the game inform you when a person gets this horse from the auction house - meaning money/luck (more money for more luck) is held higher than raw effort?
This all apart of a plan of pulling people in and pigeon-holing us into few options - either working hard for something, days to weeks of effort for a $30 equivalent item, or giving us the option to surrender our credit cards for easy access. I have no issues with working for something, I enjoy a grind, but why bother when I feel like my work won't be known or as though I'm a carbon cut out of the next guy.
I'm all for mounts, companions, item skins, but a variety of different items or mounts - some obtainable only in game would help fix this so free players can feel like they have something to work for that will be known.
Why should paying players have access to everything with ease?
That is a pretty huge leap...allowing people to use a service for free while offering optional products for purchase is the new definition of, "extortion," huh ?
No you are not. You are a consumer and a potential customer.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Hyperbole you say? Well, it’s a fair cop. I shouldn’t be so dramatic. Its only extortion if I am dead set on crafting, or having enchants or decent companions in a reasonable timeframe. If I dump that idea or the game itself then the whole “have to” angle disappears.
What’s that? “Reasonable” means different things to different people? Well normally I would cede that, yes. But there is a pretty big spectrum beyond which excessive effort is just excessive. If I can get 3 seals in an half an hour of grinding and it takes no less than 40 seals to get the cheapest thing on the seal vendor then I have to grind for… lets see… double 3 to 6 for an hour, divide 40 by 6 and that’s 6.6 so lets call it 7.
I would have to grind for 7 hours straight to get that thing. I could take breaks but that would make it take longer than 7 hours. If you are tempted to say “Yes but its still possible” consider sitting where you are and reading this post, this one post by me, over and over and over for 7 hours straight. Possible yes, but why would you think it was reasonable?
For less direct transactions like Ads you must go in an even wider circle. Dailies are pretty minor so I think I can get away with discounting them all together. Which makes stuff and Zen your AD generators. Since the discussion seems to be about “free” let’s forget Zen and say stuff. How long does it take to get enough stuff to AH into Ads to get what you want? Pretty hard to say for me. There is the AH bid sniping that can help you get things and the tactic of booting players so that you get the dungeon loot. That can help you get ahead. Exploits, I suppose.
But I think the sheer number of things you have to do to get anything for “free” really speaks for itself as does the fact that conniving and underhanded methods seem to work best. Unfortunate. I wonder what percentage of these liars, thieves and bandits would be lying, thieving and…umm banditing, were not wards directly related to a real money equivalent, if enchants didn’t contribute so hugely to gameplay.
Maybe the term “free” shouldn’t be used. Perhaps it should be called an “Item Mall” game or a “Pay as you go” game. Then it seems like people would understand from the onset that at some point money would be expected from them or they could toil away in obscurity while the game and its paying players passes them by.
As for the consumer/customer comparison, in a very technical sense you are correct. But I would point out that every player is a consumer. Any given player may only ever be a customer for the millisecond it takes for money to exit their account and enter Cryptic’s and then they are right back to being a consumer. Welcome to the F2P dynamic. Paying gets you no special status. You are just another draw on the system with more stuff. So you can see how the difference is so academic as to be moot.
Last 10 years of MMO's have sucked balls because of game design not Sub model. F2P games are so badly made they too fail after awhile. Of course a few exceptions but it is not due to Subscription model or F2P model it's just these games have just all out sucked ***.
I think Cryptic/PWE should be funded by smart individuals who design and market a game that will be appealing and inclusive, enticing people to spend money by offering a wide variety of items that accentuate and enhance their gaming experience through diversity, expansiveness and character defining purchases.
I think Cryptic/PWE should not be funded by money-gated dead-end crafting mechanics, purposely obscure multiple-currency money sinks and the establishment of a second class of gamer both pve and pvp.
But that’s just my opinion.
I would like to offer a semantic correction if I may. The company doesn’t NEED to make money, it WANT’S to make money. At issue here is the way it’s going about it.
Clearly I believe that one way is better than the other but perhaps you differ with me on that.
They took out the unicorn mount specifically for this pack and put it in a Real Cash only system of purchase. I can't even use my AD for this thing! That's bothersome enough but I've been waiting forever it seems for them to release a ranged ranger class and anything else DnD related to the game and to give us the excuse of not having the other classes balanced properly isn't a good enough excuse! Anyone who's ever dealt with game design before knows that the class balance thing is an ongoing process it's not done overnight and the game development shouldn't stop to wait for class balance before new classes are released!
So, I don't want more content patches, what I want and I think I speak for the majority is that they stop putting out RMT packages and put out new classes and I'd suggest they release a very large number of classes not 1-2 because we've been told by interviews from the beginning that they've been working on these classes since closed beta and that they'd release them shortly after launch...
It's now shortly after launch, where are they?!
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I do not know you from Adam, but I place your life well ahead of PWE/Cryptic's continued existence. Matter of fact, both companies could go belly up tomorrow, or even two hours from the time of this posting and I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but even someone I never knew passing away is a tragedy.
Bad analogy, friend.
I'm with the person that stated "the company doesn't need to make money off this game" and the implied "to keep going". Consider, Cryptic has income from two other games. PWE has a much fuller stable of games to draw an income from as well. The income from this one game is not completely necessary for either company to stay afloat. Sure, it's nice, and it lines pockets...but it's not NEEDED.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong post but the one I saw does not match your quoted statement, "the company doesn't need to make money off this game". It was, "The company doesn’t NEED to make money..."
No reference to income from this game specifically/exclusively. If continued existence is dependent on something then that something is a need. In this case PWE does need money or it will cease to exist.
That said, I expect that you are correct about whether or not the income from this game is needed.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Game goes live, March 16, 1999.
First expansion, April, 2000
Second Expansion, December, 2001
Average for each expansion since, 1 year in between, total of 19 expansion and game still going. Minor content updates (single zone or instances made available) intermittently mixed in.
The sequel that came out the same month as the next game in this list has released 9 expansions, 3 major content packs and a many minor (zone or few zone) content updates since November, 2004, but the average was still 4 months to 6 months between any major content updates.
Another game, that is not even as good as the previous (imho) but has many more customers.
Game release, November 23, 2004
Single zone content update, March 8, 2005
PVP zones added, June 7, 2005
Single zone content update, July 12, 2005
Single zone content update, September 13, 2005
Single zone content update, January 3, 2006
Expansion released, January 16, 2007
Single zone content update, May 22, 2007
Single zone content update, November 13, 2007
Expansion released, November 13, 2008
Single zone content update, April 14, 2009
Single zone content update. December 8, 2009
Expansion released, December 7, 2010
Single zone content update, June 28, 2011
Expansion released, September 25, 2012
Nothing of note since then.
If you break it down, in the 9 years, they have released 4 expansions and added 9 individual zones (note that does not account for zone changes and revamps). That's really not much and the average was around 5-6 months between actual content updates. So complaining about this game not having enough content 2 months into release is like complaining that your soda is empty 2 minutes after you received it because you sucked it down so fast that you couldn't possibly have really enjoyed it.
Recommendation: slow down, enjoy the content that is there. I seriously wish that games hadn't gone so easy mode, and leveling was actually difficult (or at least challenging) like it was in 1999-2000, when those that actually had reached the level cap in EQ were the minority, instead of those being level cap being the majority, like we're seeing in so many games that have come out since.
Absolutely correct.
But...
(and this is a big but)
Any new game will be competing with games that have more content. It may not be seen as, "fair," that a new game will be compared to one with nine years of post launch development, but both are after the player's money. If a customer has fifteen(ish) bucks a month budgeted for gaming he will see that game Y offers ten times the content of game X. Obviously, if quantity of content is not his deciding factor this imbalance between two games doesn't really matter, but if amount of playable content is a major factor for him...well he might comment that game X seems content light.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The game is 6 months old. Why people keep kidding themselves by saying the game was released at the "official release" is silly. The REAL release was with the start of open beta. And vrtesseract I've seen you put the exact same comment on multiple posts , why don't you say something new.
Other subscription MMOs aren't good examples, IMO. Look at something that didn't have any subs from the get-go, like Guild Wars. And remember, not only did you need to buy each expansion, but they also have a cash shop.
1st campaign on 4/2005
2nd on 4/2006
3rd on 10/2006
4th on 8/2007
And that was it. Yeah, they had holiday events and such, but not a lot of content additions otherwise. I mean, that was a full 6 months to a year between campaigns. They were full other continents with new professions/classes and such, but they also recycled a lot of assets.
Regardless, even though NW's Open Beta was more of a soft launch, (what with the cash shop being active and all), it was still a period of testing and tweaking, (hence why no new content was added during that time).
Don't get me wrong - I think the price of many items in the Zen store is out of whack, but all that means is that Cryptic/PWE won't get my money. I'm still enjoying what they do give me for free, or at whatever price I do feel is fair...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I suppose we will have to see if NW's expansions can compare to getting more than a dozen new zones, new endgame instances, significant numbers of new weapon skins, a couple of dozen new armor sets, two new classes, per GW1 campaign.
Keep in mind that GW1's cash shop doesn't include things like bag space, bags, gear (other than cosmetic skins), and so on.
Agreed.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.