zippyhappychimpMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited August 2013
I can't fault you for it, since you clearly outline your experiment objectives.
But you're still remiss if you don't at least mention that Storm pillar both locks you in position the longest of any of the at wills (you can freely move after each MM or CC, and you can at least slowly walk with ray) AND that the residual damage is only applicable against mobs who don't move, or are large enough to not to just accidentally move out of range quickly (which really ends up being a very marginal number of bosses and caster trash mobs.)
Both of these are huge negatives... which won't show up in a training dummy parse.
If the pillar was glued to it's primary target, or if the residual simply damaged the target (and/or mobs in a direct line between the target and the pillar out to a much greater distance), that would negate that issue. And I guess technically since you can quit charging up the pillar at any point (at a HUGE damage penalty) that maybe can negate the first issue.
Even if storm pillar got some straight up love via higher damage, or some buff/synergy love, those are inherent drawbacks currently.
I can't fault you for it, since you clearly outline your experiment objectives.
But you're still remiss if you don't at least mention that Storm pillar both locks you in position the longest of any of the at wills (you can freely move after each MM or CC, and you can at least slowly walk with ray) AND that the residual damage is only applicable against mobs who don't move, or are large enough to not to just accidentally move out of range quickly (which really ends up being a very marginal number of bosses and caster trash mobs.)
Both of these are huge negatives... which won't show up in a training dummy parse.
1. Yes, Storm Pillar is clunkier to use than the other At-Will powers; there's no doubt about it. Whether the charge time is a huge disadvantage is debatable; you can cancel Storm Pillar early in much the same way that you can move after 1/5th (or 2/5ths) of a Magic Missile attack cycle, and it's not obvious to me that the damage loss for canceling Storm Pillar early is any worse than the combination of lost damage and lost effects* that comes along with canceling the other At-Wills mid-cycle.
(* - what I mean by that is that canceling MM makes you lose out on a stack of Arcane Mastery, and/or on refreshing existing stacks. Likewise, canceling Chilling Cloud before the third strike loses you a chill stack, and canceling Ray of Frost early could be the difference between a target that's frozen or not.)
2. I don't necessarily agree with your second point. Yes, it's possible that your target will move out of range of the lingering pillar effect before it's delivered its full damage payload. In my experience, that's not at all common in PvE, though. The pillar shoots pretty quickly (5 strikes in ~2 seconds?), and it has a decent range (maybe 25 feet?).
As far as I can tell, the main practical drawback of the pillar is one that I did mention: namely, the player has no control over which target the pillar attacks, which means that in certain situations Pillar isn't a good single-target option, even despite its theoretical damage potential. There's no such thing as focus fire with Storm Pillar, in other words. (NB: the main quantifiable drawback of the pillar mechanic is, of course, that its attacks do not proc. That's huge.)
In my view, the main drawback of the entire Storm Pillar power is also already covered in my rambling observations, though perhaps not adequately: Storm Pillar has the lowest ceiling for improvement out of all of the At-Wills. As I've accumulated more data, that glaring flaw has only increased in my estimation. If Neverwinter were a game featuring a lot of substantive and difficult build choices, then perhaps Storm Pillar's lack in that area could actually be regarded as an asset, because then you could argue that Storm Pillar saves build resources that might be put into other, useful areas -- but Neverwinter doesn't appear to be such a game, at least with respect to Wizards.
On the contrary, there's almost zero reason not to take a fair number of the feats and features that vastly improve the other At-Wills' damage and/or utility. Storm Pillar's just a very ... vanilla power. There's no synergy, no flavor, no tactical secret to uncover with Storm Pillar. The closest thing I can think of is that Storm Pillar helps you troll other people in PvP when you're hidden from view (because they can't track a projectile back to you). That's actually the main reason I thought to rank it up in the first place.
Anyway, one thing I certainly have not covered adequately is that Storm Pillar's area of effect is now much, much smaller than Chilling Cloud's on the Preview Shard. Will hope to have some sort of visual comparison of the Chilling Cloud change soonish.
All of that said, you're absolutely right to point out that there are various practical considerations that tests like mine cannot measure. I appreciate the reminder, and I hope that people will continue to point out practical caveats as I (slowly) add to the thread. Whether I ultimately agree with those caveats doesn't matter; it's good to have the discussion along with all of the quantitative stuff.
The fact that Storm Pillar can be used to build AP outside of combat (it's been this way for a while now, and considering how they've already tweaked this power a few times already I think it's safe to assume this is intended) gives it some utility unique to it alone. This makes it a great secondary at-will which I believe was what it was meant for. Consider: Arcane Mastery and Chill are our two key class features. If Storm Pillar was designed to be a primary at-will you'd think there'd be a feat somewhere that allowed it to build Arcane Mastery/Chill Stacks. All the other Spellstorm Mage powers already complement Arcane Mastery/Chill to some degree, why not this one?
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
0
Options
remorselordMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 102Arc User
edited August 2013
I tried out Storm Pillar both in PVP and PVE and it seems to have better use in PVE in a scenario where you are not the target and your group is holding all the agro. In that case, sure it's an amazing skill for damage and AP. But in a realistic scenario where mobility is the difference between life and death, I can't see this skill being as useful as other at-wills. Clearly, much effort was placed by the devs to improve this skill damagewise, but not much of use since it's more of a gamble than anything.
I have actually started using Storm Pillar during Singularities mainly and in some other situations, and I have to admit I'm very pleased. I can definitely see it adding dps in certain situations. In fact I see Storm Pillar being the AoE At-Will in Renegade builds, for a definite dps boost.
Not sure if this was mentioned in the tests or not, and I am too tired to check :P, Chilling Cloud procs Elemental Empowerment in the third hit.
pfft2, did you test Storm Pillar with Evocation slotted?
The fact that Storm Pillar can be used to build AP outside of combat (it's been this way for a while now, and considering how they've already tweaked this power a few times already I think it's safe to assume this is intended) gives it some utility unique to it alone.
That's true. There are also occasionally (rarely) combat situations that call for you to cast the power without a target. For example, if you're surrounded by targets, the best way to hit them all (or as many as you can) might be to let SP center on you.
This makes it a great secondary at-will which I believe was what it was meant for. Consider: Arcane Mastery and Chill are our two key class features. If Storm Pillar was designed to be a primary at-will you'd think there'd be a feat somewhere that allowed it to build Arcane Mastery/Chill Stacks. All the other Spellstorm Mage powers already complement Arcane Mastery/Chill to some degree, why not this one?
That could well be. The leaked tooltips for the supposedly upcoming Fiery Paragon Path lead me to believe that the curious lack of synergy between lightning powers and all of the base-class powers was an oversight, though.
In any case, it's definitely true that Storm Pillar performs well out of the box. It's therefore perhaps the most build-agnostic At-Will we have.
I have actually started using Storm Pillar during Singularities mainly and in some other situations, and I have to admit I'm very pleased. I can definitely see it adding dps in certain situations. In fact I see Storm Pillar being the AoE At-Will in Renegade builds, for a definite dps boost.
Not sure if this was mentioned in the tests or not, and I am too tired to check :P, Chilling Cloud procs Elemental Empowerment in the third hit.
pfft2, did you test Storm Pillar with Evocation slotted?
I'm glad you're pleased. I felt the same way
Chilling Cloud doesn't appear to proc Elemental Empowerment anymore, on the Preview Shard. I'm not sure whether I mentioned that or not. Kinda still cloudy this morning. Then again, based on very casual testing, the cold-power side of Elemental Empowerment doesn't appear to work at all on the test server: when it does proc (that is, when you use a cold encounter power) it appears to proc for zero damage. Given some of the other rather large feat bugs introduced in the latest Preview patch, I'm hesitant to make any quick judgments or definitive statements about how EE should or will ultimately work.
The patch note about Chilling Cloud's third hit suggests to me that CC isn't supposed to proc EE though. We'll see.
On the upside, Chilling Cloud's visuals seem to have been improved, and its area of effect seems to have been increased rather dramatically. More on this later. (And that's the answer to ianthewizard's question, btw. I made that gif using footage from the test server. On the live server, you'll notice that if you attack the leftmost dummy in the side room of Trade of Blades, Chilling Cloud doesn't hit anything else. On Preview, Chilling Cloud's area is big enough that you can no longer hit just a single dummy in that side room.)
I'm hoping to test Evocation with Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud soonish. Early indications are that Evocation doesn't affect either, but I can't say for sure right now. I have a bunch of results piled up that I'll be adding in the next day or so -- power scaling, generic +damage feats, and weapon-enchant procs. I've just been dragging my feet cause the least fun part is to wrestle the data into a quasi-readable status.
millertime197933Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 124Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
Great data and thanks for the work you do for the benefit of us all. I would be curious to see what is the optimal use for combinations of at-will powers for maximum dps. Weaving storm pillar with magic missile is the first thing to come to mind. Is it ideal to fire off one storm pillar to proc the pillar, then weave in one round of magic missiles, going back and forth between?
Another would be weaving chilling cloud and storm pillar in AoE situations.
0
Options
petpet2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I prefer Ray Of Frost as best at will Thats my advice since beta
Well, I quite love the Storm Pillar for AoE situations. Combine it with a single MM for rene proc. Damage is good, AoE is very small, but it still works on grouped up mobs. When I don't need that AoE - Magic missiles are the way to go.
0
Options
fgmfanhaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
Scorching Burst, in my opinion, is a very versatile at-will.. you can single target 1 target (really quick spams) or hold a bit longer for aoe..
there is so much u can do with it.. and it combos with magic missile or other at-wills!!!
Would love to see it tested
PS: is the only at-will that u can use while "moving".
Storm Pillar in PvE - for it does aoe dmg (and it crits for me pretty handsomely), and since Shard and Sudden Storm go through Singularity dealing no dmg to mobs, I like to spam Storm Pillar while it is sucking them in.
Ray of Frost in PvP - to slower single target and immobilize ofc.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
I wish Magic Missile was like of old, when higher levels gave you more missiles. I'm not impressed with it here, as it does nothing to control enemies, whereas RoF does. It's my go-to power one-on-one, no matter how long it takes, an enemy who can't hit me but only take damage is critical to surviving.
Wish there was a Haste spell, though ST is kind of the reverse. Haven't got my character that high yet.
Comments
But you're still remiss if you don't at least mention that Storm pillar both locks you in position the longest of any of the at wills (you can freely move after each MM or CC, and you can at least slowly walk with ray) AND that the residual damage is only applicable against mobs who don't move, or are large enough to not to just accidentally move out of range quickly (which really ends up being a very marginal number of bosses and caster trash mobs.)
Both of these are huge negatives... which won't show up in a training dummy parse.
If the pillar was glued to it's primary target, or if the residual simply damaged the target (and/or mobs in a direct line between the target and the pillar out to a much greater distance), that would negate that issue. And I guess technically since you can quit charging up the pillar at any point (at a HUGE damage penalty) that maybe can negate the first issue.
Even if storm pillar got some straight up love via higher damage, or some buff/synergy love, those are inherent drawbacks currently.
1. Yes, Storm Pillar is clunkier to use than the other At-Will powers; there's no doubt about it. Whether the charge time is a huge disadvantage is debatable; you can cancel Storm Pillar early in much the same way that you can move after 1/5th (or 2/5ths) of a Magic Missile attack cycle, and it's not obvious to me that the damage loss for canceling Storm Pillar early is any worse than the combination of lost damage and lost effects* that comes along with canceling the other At-Wills mid-cycle.
2. I don't necessarily agree with your second point. Yes, it's possible that your target will move out of range of the lingering pillar effect before it's delivered its full damage payload. In my experience, that's not at all common in PvE, though. The pillar shoots pretty quickly (5 strikes in ~2 seconds?), and it has a decent range (maybe 25 feet?).
As far as I can tell, the main practical drawback of the pillar is one that I did mention: namely, the player has no control over which target the pillar attacks, which means that in certain situations Pillar isn't a good single-target option, even despite its theoretical damage potential. There's no such thing as focus fire with Storm Pillar, in other words. (NB: the main quantifiable drawback of the pillar mechanic is, of course, that its attacks do not proc. That's huge.)
In my view, the main drawback of the entire Storm Pillar power is also already covered in my rambling observations, though perhaps not adequately: Storm Pillar has the lowest ceiling for improvement out of all of the At-Wills. As I've accumulated more data, that glaring flaw has only increased in my estimation. If Neverwinter were a game featuring a lot of substantive and difficult build choices, then perhaps Storm Pillar's lack in that area could actually be regarded as an asset, because then you could argue that Storm Pillar saves build resources that might be put into other, useful areas -- but Neverwinter doesn't appear to be such a game, at least with respect to Wizards.
On the contrary, there's almost zero reason not to take a fair number of the feats and features that vastly improve the other At-Wills' damage and/or utility. Storm Pillar's just a very ... vanilla power. There's no synergy, no flavor, no tactical secret to uncover with Storm Pillar. The closest thing I can think of is that Storm Pillar helps you troll other people in PvP when you're hidden from view (because they can't track a projectile back to you). That's actually the main reason I thought to rank it up in the first place.
Anyway, one thing I certainly have not covered adequately is that Storm Pillar's area of effect is now much, much smaller than Chilling Cloud's on the Preview Shard. Will hope to have some sort of visual comparison of the Chilling Cloud change soonish.
All of that said, you're absolutely right to point out that there are various practical considerations that tests like mine cannot measure. I appreciate the reminder, and I hope that people will continue to point out practical caveats as I (slowly) add to the thread. Whether I ultimately agree with those caveats doesn't matter; it's good to have the discussion along with all of the quantitative stuff.
Video Review: http://www.twitch.tv/zovya/c/2671017
Not sure if this was mentioned in the tests or not, and I am too tired to check :P, Chilling Cloud procs Elemental Empowerment in the third hit.
pfft2, did you test Storm Pillar with Evocation slotted?
That's true. There are also occasionally (rarely) combat situations that call for you to cast the power without a target. For example, if you're surrounded by targets, the best way to hit them all (or as many as you can) might be to let SP center on you.
That could well be. The leaked tooltips for the supposedly upcoming Fiery Paragon Path lead me to believe that the curious lack of synergy between lightning powers and all of the base-class powers was an oversight, though.
In any case, it's definitely true that Storm Pillar performs well out of the box. It's therefore perhaps the most build-agnostic At-Will we have.
I'm glad you're pleased. I felt the same way
Chilling Cloud doesn't appear to proc Elemental Empowerment anymore, on the Preview Shard. I'm not sure whether I mentioned that or not. Kinda still cloudy this morning. Then again, based on very casual testing, the cold-power side of Elemental Empowerment doesn't appear to work at all on the test server: when it does proc (that is, when you use a cold encounter power) it appears to proc for zero damage. Given some of the other rather large feat bugs introduced in the latest Preview patch, I'm hesitant to make any quick judgments or definitive statements about how EE should or will ultimately work.
The patch note about Chilling Cloud's third hit suggests to me that CC isn't supposed to proc EE though. We'll see.
On the upside, Chilling Cloud's visuals seem to have been improved, and its area of effect seems to have been increased rather dramatically. More on this later. (And that's the answer to ianthewizard's question, btw. I made that gif using footage from the test server. On the live server, you'll notice that if you attack the leftmost dummy in the side room of Trade of Blades, Chilling Cloud doesn't hit anything else. On Preview, Chilling Cloud's area is big enough that you can no longer hit just a single dummy in that side room.)
I'm hoping to test Evocation with Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud soonish. Early indications are that Evocation doesn't affect either, but I can't say for sure right now. I have a bunch of results piled up that I'll be adding in the next day or so -- power scaling, generic +damage feats, and weapon-enchant procs. I've just been dragging my feet cause the least fun part is to wrestle the data into a quasi-readable status.
Another would be weaving chilling cloud and storm pillar in AoE situations.
there is so much u can do with it.. and it combos with magic missile or other at-wills!!!
Would love to see it tested
PS: is the only at-will that u can use while "moving".
Storm Pillar in PvE - for it does aoe dmg (and it crits for me pretty handsomely), and since Shard and Sudden Storm go through Singularity dealing no dmg to mobs, I like to spam Storm Pillar while it is sucking them in.
Ray of Frost in PvP - to slower single target and immobilize ofc.
Wish there was a Haste spell, though ST is kind of the reverse. Haven't got my character that high yet.
Leader of the Packs