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ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Just watched some gameplay of ******** on his stream using the cheese rogue build... I have to say its probably the CHEESIEST thing Ive ever seen... I Hope this is you at home *******:)
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But seriously... Here is the gameplay vid. Good gameplay btw, not hating on you for doing it actually giving props for taking the time to lvl and gear out for this, just hating on the Devs for making the build this broken.
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I think one of the MOST OP parts about this is how fast a TR ran run in stealth and the huge range on the knives...
I mean even in WOW rogue mobility got a nerf while stealthed AND any attack brought you out...
AN easy fix is:
- Reduce movement speed while stealthed... Whoever thought of giving you MORE movement while sneaking around... That doesnt even make sense...
- Reduce the ability to jump around while throwing knives...
Done.
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But seriously... Here is the gameplay vid. Good gameplay btw, not hating on you for doing it actually giving props for taking the time to lvl and gear out for this, just hating on the Devs for making the build this broken.
<Link removed>
I think one of the MOST OP parts about this is how fast a TR ran run in stealth and the huge range on the knives...
I mean even in WOW rogue mobility got a nerf while stealthed AND any attack brought you out...
AN easy fix is:
- Reduce movement speed while stealthed... Whoever thought of giving you MORE movement while sneaking around... That doesnt even make sense...
- Reduce the ability to jump around while throwing knives...
Done.
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Comments
2- Perma stealth rogues' main damage comes from throwing knives, and they build up damage if you stand and take the full damage from them without pressing shift. so if you simply want to reduce its damage , just dodge in random directions.
3- Perma stealth rogues are pretty much "****ed" if you spot them and CC them . because it will take them a while to regenrate their stealth again.
4- Knives range is waaay less than CW's magic missile.
5- Perma stealth rogues loses alot of damage , because they have to keep their stealth up by using weak / defensive encounters ( his only damaging encounters are shadow strike and impact shot which do very low damage).
6- Learn to play.
1) Not saying this IS wow but wow is the "benchmark" or w.e I dont even like wow but it has alot of thing that other games should mimic becuase of its experience.
2) Yes it comes from throwing knives... If you watch the video, with 7 tenes and a greater vorpal its not like you really have the TIME to react to that, even some GFs were getting melted. CWs jsut basically get 1 shot before they can even realize whats going on.
3) How are they ******ed? You use impossible to catch and just make sure you dont blow your daily on something stupid. In otherwords #4....
His video title even names it as "learning cheese rogue" Why do you think its called that and not "learning skilled rogue".
Im going WAY out on a ledger here and guessing... you play a TR....
Yes i watched the video , his damage isn't that "abnormal" you can dodge the knives by jumping and dodging. if you stand still and take it you are pretty much stupid.
About impossible to catch , it consumes his stealth it means he has to regenerate it by using shadow strike... which means he will have to approach you to do so... and when he approach you... kill him (impossible to catch doesnt stay that long).
Yes im a TR , i don;t use that build tho because i dont find it effective for PVE. But i did play vs Perma stealth rogues and was able to kill them. It is kind of cheesy because you have to "open your eyes" and spot them , because their invisibility are the cheesy part.
However , their invisibility can be spotted once they are close to you ( just move your cursor around) i can't remember how many times i killed perma stealth rogues with " lashing blade" while they are stealthed near me.
a tip: buy some regeneration pots , it pretty much annoys them. The pink pots that you get from mobs and praying works perfectly in PvP.
Lol, he offers you an exploit to help counter the build... pot meet kettle
Not an exploit , all potions that drops from mobs and praying can work in pvp and are consumed upon death.
But then again, you prefer complaining than learning how to play.
Yah welcome to Action MMO RPG. Where you actually have to dodge by using your hands unlike the korean grinding games where you slot expensive "evasion" gems that makes you dodge attacks without even moving a finger.
If you a CW , slot Conduit of Ice in your spell mastery. cast it on rogue once you spot him , the tornado animation will make him spottable even if he is stealthed. the damage over time and chill will reduce his stealth duration because he will be taking damage.
If you are a GF, pretty much dont hesistate to knock in the direction you expect he is at. he will still get knocked and his stealth will be wasted.
If you are a GWF , im still leveling one so i dont know much about tactics for them.
if you are a TR, try to spot him nearby and cast smoke bombs. You can pretty much counter his stealth by using Blood bath daily , as it will hit him even if he goes stealthed. Use impossible to catch whenever it is on , to counter his impact shot and shadow strike stuns.
1) How will conduit of ice even be helpful when you get 100-0 without even seeing him?
2) Frontline surge (I assume is what your talking about) has a very long CD and you solution is "attack in the direction you THINK he is at"? Also knives have a MUCH longer range then surge... AND youve wasted your encounter so GL even if you can get him out of stealth cause now you just have bullrush to knock him... Then what...
3) No commet here yet. Seems like when you spec right and have over 35k HP the damage is small compared to health pool and you ideally should be able to run away... I think 1v1 you should win...
4) This is based on the premise that you even know he is there... If played right, you can hide -> stealth and GG.. How will smoke bombs work if he is hitting you with range? I saw TRs trying these things in the video but since he does play it well, it doesnt work.
There really isnt a counter to this and the ability to be that mobile and deal that much damage while being invisible is just flat out dumb... It does have limitations but even a cheese GF build has way less mobility and far more reliance on timing encounters (using KC) or just flat out luck with crits.
He posted another video of a fellow TR 1v1ing a GF where it wasnt even a fight... Before the GF could even see the TR he was lower than half hp.
This has never personally killed me yet on my GWF or GF BUT I have not played people like Lantiss who were actually non-downy players using this cheese build...
But here are a few perma stealth TR around which are writing down the silliest statement ever: "l2p" ... each thread, each comment is just only "l2p". If there would be some successful tactics to fight a perma stealth TR, nobody would start these threads. But using some AoE encounter while praying to god that the TR might be hit and the TR might be lose stealth ... well that doesnt look like a real tactic.
well perma stealth TR will be nerfed in future patches. soloing epic dungeon bosses should not be possible at all.
And here is the reason:
If you dodge in any random direction and jump around , you will break his 12 knives build up. They will deal way less damage eventually , try it.
as for GFs , they pretty much can spot the rogue because like i said, the daggers ranger isnt that long... CW's magic missile's is way longer. If the GF just use his hands and move his mouse around he will see the rogue throwing his daggers ( because to build up damage on daggers , the TR has to stand still . If he jumps he will break the damage build up).
Smoke bomb can definitely counter it. because like i said, you have to see where he is and cast smoke bomb near him. It has a big radius and can definitely break his combo.
I'm talking from personal experience with TRs using similar builds and gears , and i did manage to kill them. It was hard but possible.
Funny how i see where daggers are coming from and i go to his location and smoke bomb his HAMSTER..
How to get in range for frontline surge? perma stealth bob is running 15% faster than everyone else. Additionally the TR is able to dodge. As a GF you will never get in range for surge if the TR isnt brainafk.
And here is the reason:
Your guard meter. He has to stay static to build up damage on his daggers to penetrate your shield.
Raise your guard and look where the daggers are coming from, move slowly towards his location. if he stops his daggers or starts jumping , it means he will lose his build up damage advantage. Use some regeneration potions with that too.
Once he is out of daggers he will annoy you abit with his impact shot , which will eventually consume his stealth. At that point he will show up for a second, take your chance to combo him.
Jump... Then its not static...... Plus when he is running around you, you cant really predict exactly where to block. Its pretty easy to jump around a block..
I dont pvp for glory I pvp for fun. PVP is my end game and PVE is my means to PVP... That said while I like your solution, its not a great solution. Someone who has this setup ISNT sitting there farming glory, they are playing to play... you leaving just puts a bigger smirk on their face since they cause you to leave.
Plus I didnt Q up to leave
Lamest no skill build ever
So had another fun day as a CW in PVP.
Last match the other team had a fun fun high skill rogue playing.
He would stealth. Lashing from stealth. Hit ITC and then impact shot once or.
Over and Over again. Just playing a counter CW class for cheap and easy kills.
If you didn't die from lashing what do you do. You cant CC him. He takes two hits to kill as highly geared as I can get.
So hit Tab 1 button 1 button 1 button. over and over again.
That takes zero skill at all. It can't be countered by a CW.
Enough is enough.
Gaunt BG last night. Rogues made up 20% of the players. Got 43% of the kills. Top 3 highest all rogues.
Had enough of your game
Sorry I thought I was being clear...
You dont NEED the build up with tene and vorpal to do INSANE damage... YOu can hop around and proc full HP tenes all day long from range from stealth and get a target to 1/3 HP is seconds... Its even worse when you CAN build it up... I mean its not like it does NO damage without build up.. It still does good damage with vorpal and add greater tenes... its GG
Even if the TR would stay there while my shield is up: my guard meter is down after a few daggers and im walking very slow. While my shield is up, each TR can use CoS for 3-5 seconds until im in range for frontline surge. And before im in range: dodge backward to increase the distance and continue with CoS.
raising my shield is not an option vs good TRs.
Its usefull to get some time - hopefully some teammates with less damage reduction are coming so that the Tr is killing them first X_X
And here is the reason:
You do realize you can dodge his lashing blade don't you? just blink once you see him ( move your cursor around and you will spot him when he is near).
Don't ever cast CC on him while impossible to catch is on , use your shift till it fades ( it lasts for a really short duration).
Cast conduit of ice on him , the tornado animation will show his location even if he is stealthed.
Use shield to make some distance , also use entangling force..however, in mass pvp it is pretty much hard to spot any rogue, perma stealthed or not, but i'm talking about 1 vs 1 situations.
Really, you are the first CW whom i see complaining about TRs ... you guys are lords of CC..
I also doubt you watched any of his gameplay since its like 3 hours long of footage and you posted almost immediately after I posted that...
He does need the build up and here is why:
Your shield normally needs 7 to 9 daggers to get penetrated completely ( without the tene effect) but with the tene effect , it will take 3 or 4 daggers.
So basically your shield will lower alot of his burst initial damage, as the tene will go on CD.
So if he doesn't build it up , he will lose the following:
1- Alot more daggers to get through your shield.
2-Most of the tene's burst.
I've played vs GFs whose shield were easily penetrated whilst others that their shield was so annoying to penetrate.So it pretty much depends on you.
Tip for other classes : if you are a CW , detonate your shield after the dmg reduction is consumed ( it can push him away) and jump / dodge around. make him waste as much as daggers as you can.
If you are DC , cast your astral shield and try dodging around. same as the CW, dodging is good and try to cast your punting ability (it can push him away).
Reply is same as above.
I did see some of the video. I don't have to watch all of it because like i said , i PvP alot and i have encountered alot of rogues like this and managed to kill them.
I'm ,again, speaking of my personal experience and yes some of them had greater tenes and vorpals/ plague fire.
The build isn't "un skilled" it is actually pure for pvp. in PvE he wont be so effective like other executioner rogues..(already tested).
And again, just because some rogues can out play you doesn't mean that their builds needs to be nerfed... it is very childish of you to say that.
few things tho, it's not perma stealth, if you watched the stream, you'd see I'm out of stealth alot waiting behind pillars or dodging into walls to regenerate stealth bar, basically I can't fight 2 waves of enemies, I can only fight one and another one with quite a long cooldown. there are far more cheesier builds out there.
I mained DC, CW, GWF and now rogue. I can honestly say GWF and rogue are 2 of the most broken classes, they need to be nerfed badly, hence my stream title.
That's mainly the reason why i started streaming, so people would see what happens when a broken class is played properly.
If i had better connection i would stream how to counter them, but sadly i don't haha.
Speaking of pillars.. one rogue tried that with me, i put my stealth on and went to that pillar and made a juicy lashing blade on him... then immediately used blood bath.
Was fun seeing him running stealthed in panic while my blood bath is still slashing him with my evil laugh. * MUHAHAHAHA * *SLASH* *SLASH* SLASH*.
other rogues are not the problem its mainly CW / DC that suffer from this build, I'm pretty sure skilled GF can kill me, but I don't know yet, it's only my 2nd day on the rogue.
Seeing the amount of whining on forums, i doubt non of them got enough "skills" to do so.
Then again, whining and complaining is much easier than actually reacting to a certain build/class...but sadly the loudest voice on forums is the voice of whiners.
I mean, so far there are tons of threads about GFs , GWFs, CWs and TRs being OP. And when a guy came up with a DPS cleric build, people flamed him up.Accusing him of failure and "you got lucky" lol.
Cleric with 24 kills and 3 deaths is luck... hmm...
Yes I did, thanks for posting that. Ive been following you guys (Fear/Kiwi/You/Carnage) for a while. Year gear setup and streams etc, hope to 1v1 someday.
I figure what better way than to learn your play styles and skill rotation so I can play against it
Its nice to hear that your honest about the classes being OP. Ive only played GWF/GF so far and my GWF is stronger than my GF so id agree there... I never really complained about the "perma stealth" build (I only named it that because ive seen others name it that... ) until I saw your stream and was shocked at how easy (and fun) it looks...
So for Esteena, its not that I personally have ever had an issue with this. When I playd my GF I would shield and sit since I was tanky enough to withstand the daggers. Not to mention I loved it because my stalwarts proced and I could turn around and 2 shot IF I caught the TR.
I love how you try to flame by saying " just because some rogues can out play you" LOL!
Its not an "outplay" mechanic but like Lantiss said its definitely OP...
Dont try and defend your own class man, while there are alot of bad PVPers out there, just because someone posts about a build/set up being OP doesnt make them bad in PVP...
And for your rogues that think your skilled. On boss fights you deal with one target. Just one. As a CW I have up 15-20 targets plus various red zones of AOE. I have the least amount of mitigation and have to deal with those targets while the AS is down or its a wipe. I have to protect the healer at the same time or its a wipe.
On CN if I don't round those targets up and punt them at just the right time every time its a wipe. If we don't have them all out by a certain time its all over.
You guys hit one target. Takes lots of skill to do that.