Why won't the devs remove exploit maps?

wuhsin

I've sent bug reports, with screencaps. Others sent videos with their bug reports proving that a certain map is an exploit. Weeks later, the same exploit map is sitting pretty near the top of the new list. Lock this post, punish me, whatever. I just spent forty bucks on a white tiger mount. As a paying player, and a Foundry author who has spent many hours making quests for others to enjoy, I'd like for my reports to be taken seriously. Please get a Foundry dev in this thread, or I'll just post more threads about it until either I'm banned, or the exploit map I'm talking about is taken down. We all know which one I'm talking about, so I'm not gonna name it, or tell anyone else how it works. By the way, every time my quest has risen above said exploit quest on the list, I've been bombed with down-votes from obvious alts. I'm kind of fed up at this point. I understand it isn't the community manager's job to deal with this, but the people who ARE responsible for dealing with this HAMSTER have neglected their job, and I want answers from them, not the community managers.

drakonadrgora

What sort of exploits are you talking about? The EXP exploits where they are pretty much not an adventure at all; but just a simple way to gain massive exp? If so I agree with you that such maps should be removed and the author warned that if they submit another they will not be able to use foundry to make any more maps.

karitr

Yeah, I took a look midweek, after the Foundry update and was pretty dismayed to see it still there.

Is it possible to PM a Mod, or do they not take mail?

wuhsin

drakonadrgora wrote: »

What sort of exploits are you talking about? The EXP exploits where they are pretty much not an adventure at all; but just a simple way to gain massive exp? If so I agree with you that such maps should be removed and the author warned that if they submit another they will not be able to use foundry to make any more maps.

This is even worse than that, because the mobs can't even fight back, and they can be insta-killed.

derpaderpist

wuhsin wrote: »

I've sent bug reports, with screencaps. Others sent videos with their bug reports proving that a certain map is an exploit. Weeks later, the same exploit map is sitting pretty near the top of the new list. Lock this post, punish me, whatever. I just spent forty bucks on a white tiger mount. As a paying player, and a Foundry author who has spent many hours making quests for others to enjoy, I'd like for my reports to be taken seriously. Please get a Foundry dev in this thread, or I'll just post more threads about it until either I'm banned, or the exploit map I'm talking about is taken down. We all know which one I'm talking about, so I'm not gonna name it, or tell anyone else how it works. By the way, every time my quest has risen above said exploit quest on the list, I've been bombed with down-votes from obvious alts. I'm kind of fed up at this point. I understand it isn't the community manager's job to deal with this, but the people who ARE responsible for dealing with this HAMSTER have neglected their job, and I want answers from them, not the community managers.

40 bucks only ? lol

wuhsin

karitr wrote: »

Yeah, I took a look midweek, after the Foundry update and was pretty dismayed to see it still there.

Is it possible to PM a Mod, or do they not take mail?

I've gotten Mods to respond to their mail a couple of times in the past, but it really just depends on whether they feel like answering or not. There's not much they can do besides lock my threads or pass the message along to someone who CAN do something about it... Which they have so far chosen not to do for some reason.......

wuhsin

derpaderpist wrote: »

40 bucks only ? lol

I know, I'm so glad it didn't cost 200 bucks like the spider mount my friend wants. :cool:

BTW - That isn't the only purchase I've made if you're implying I'm cheap. Just the most recent one.

lolsorhand

Well... Because they just don't care . The exploits are the least of the concerns imo, they need to work on the rewards on dailies, that way the people that actually work for longer quests might get plays. Everyone atm is all about the AD/Minute.

wuhsin

lolsorhand wrote: »

Well... Because they just don't care . The exploits are the least of the concerns imo, they need to work on the rewards on dailies, that way the people that actually work for longer quests might get plays. Everyone atm is all about the AD/Minute.

Yeah I'm thinking you're right about the not caring part. The daily reward system also needs work, but I don't think that's enough justification for them to just not even police the Foundry at all. It's really a slap in the face to most of us Foundry authors.

lolsorhand

Yes it is, but like... We can't do much except simply withdraw/stop making foundries. Hmm, A strike sounds awesome lol

wuhsin

Since lolsorhand brought up the reward system, let me remind you all that the reason it was gimped was to prevent exploits. Now here we are, with an exploit map or two sitting above most of our quests that we poured our hearts into. How can anyone be so indifferent to our plight? Instead of punishing exploiters, the devs just punish the rest of us. They'll do that shortly by locking my thread and calling me a spammer again. Just wait..

narayansingh

I have no idea as to which foundry quest you are talking about and do not really want to know.

Just to play devils advocate here. How do these exploit maps affect you personally? Are they taking away plays from your quest? Are you just upset about getting 1* bombed? Exactly what is it that you are personally this upset about?

wuhsin

lolsorhand wrote: »

Yes it is, but like... We can't do much except simply withdraw/stop making foundries. Hmm, A strike sounds awesome lol

I thought about going on strike, and did threaten to, but since I last reported this exploit I have made a whole new quest... Honestly though, a strike sounds like a good idea, but there's no way we'd get everyone on board with that idea. I really figured they'd have removed his POS exploit by the time I finished another quest... But noooo....

lolsorhand

I mean, I could just withdraw The Dwarven Tale, But only if more authors would do this would it be taken seriously, so get the featured ones on here :P *nods*

wuhsin

narayansingh wrote: »

I have no idea as to which foundry quest you are talking about and do not really want to know.

Just to play devils advocate here. How do these exploit maps affect you personally? Are they taking away plays from your quest? Are you just upset about getting 1* bombed? Exactly what is it that you are personally this upset about?

1. Our reward system was gimped to prevent exploits. Then they refuse to remove reported exploits.

2. Yes, exploits are costing everyone plays, because they caused the devs to gimp our reward system, and people STILL choose to play the exploits over other quests because they still are more rewarding.

3. Yes, I'm upset that this guy anonymously 1* bombs me every time my adjusted rating increases by 0.1 points.

4. It's insulting to me that most people would rather five star an exploit than my own quests.

5. It's insulting to me when I report an exploit, and get an automated response having nothing to do with my report.

Maybe you can shrug this off, but indifference to evil is worse than evil itself IMO.

lolsorhand

narayansingh wrote: »

I have no idea as to which foundry quest you are talking about and do not really want to know.

Just to play devils advocate here. How do these exploit maps affect you personally? Are they taking away plays from your quest? Are you just upset about getting 1* bombed? Exactly what is it that you are personally this upset about?

If you don't know the history behind it, don't presume anything. - It's a simple quest which I don't care about, but I want to see more effort being put into foundry rewards instead of 15 min limits and do x ammount of foundries for this.

narayansingh

wuhsin wrote: »

1. Our reward system was gimped to prevent exploits. Then they refuse to remove reported exploits.

2. Yes, exploits are costing everyone plays, because they caused the devs to gimp our reward system, and people STILL choose to play the exploits over other quests because they still are more rewarding.

3. Yes, I'm upset that this guy anonymously 1* bombs me every time my adjusted rating increases by 0.1 points.

4. It's insulting to me that most people would rather five star an exploit than my own quests.

5. It's insulting to me when I report an exploit, and get an automated response having nothing to do with my report.

Maybe you can shrug this off, but indifference to evil is worse than evil itself IMO.

I will leave it at this... IMHO you are overreacting. An exploit quest is not evil by any sense of the word.

wuhsin

Excuse the melodramatic metaphor, I'll rephrase this in a more reasonable way that you might understand. Ignoring a cheater or an exploiter is just as bad as cheating or exploiting. Ignoring a crime is just as bad as taking part in that crime. By looking the other way you are only enabling bad behavior. Sometimes you have to stick your foot up someone's HAMSTER, and you might get some HAMSTER on your boots in the process.

zahinder

So you only focus on one of Wuhsin's points?
He made several, and they aren't inherently tied.

Exploit maps affect expectations of players and distort how Foundry works. It creates unhealthy tension between grinders and content players.

When devs construct a system to automatically meter out loot based on exploit maps and the players those maps engender, it ends up creating a disincentive for players to try nonexploit maps and an effective punishment on people who prefer regular content.

narayansingh

wuhsin wrote: »

Excuse the melodramatic metaphor, I'll rephrase this in a more reasonable way that you might understand. Ignoring a cheater or an exploiter is just as bad as cheating or exploiting. Ignoring a crime is just as bad as taking part in that crime. By looking the other way you are only enabling bad behavior. Sometimes you have to stick your foot up someone's HAMSTER, and you might get some HAMSTER on your boots in the process.

Same thing. IMHO it has really nothing to do with exploiting, it has really nothing to do with ignoring a crime, it has nothing to do with enabling bad behavior, it has nothing to do with standing up for what is right. It is all about this particular quest being rated above yours and every time your get close to or above the particular quest your get bombed. And that is what is upsetting you. And the rest is just cover.

So I am out of this conversation. Made up my mind. TTFN

zahinder

I'll also point out that in STO Foundry, authors complained for a YEAR that 'one-click' adventures were destroying Foundry.

And when devs finally got around to fixing it, the devs complained that authors hadn't done enough to 'police themselves' (???), and grinders started a virulent campaign against the 'foundry elite.'

So... set your expectations very very low.

wuhsin

narayansingh wrote: »

It is all about this particular quest being rated above yours and every time your get close to or above the particular quest your get bombed. And that is what is upsetting you. And the rest is just cover.

So I am out of this conversation. Made up my mind. TTFN

The reason I'm getting bombed is because I called out this author as a Foundry exploiter, so what you said is an anachronism. Also, say you seen an old lady getting mugged. Would you walk up the poor, screaming old woman, and say, "You're just upset because that mugger is bigger and stronger, and stealing your food stamp card." Point made.

wuhsin

zahinder wrote: »

I'll also point out that in STO Foundry, authors complained for a YEAR that 'one-click' adventures were destroying Foundry.

And when devs finally got around to fixing it, the devs complained that authors hadn't done enough to 'police themselves' (???), and grinders started a virulent campaign against the 'foundry elite.'

So... set your expectations very very low.

I've already been called an Elitist jerk plenty of times since I started my campaign to get this exploit map taken down.. What those people fail to realize is that I take it as a compliment.

lolsorhand

wuhsin wrote: »

I've already been called an Elitist jerk plenty of times since I started my campaign to get this exploit map taken down.. What those people fail to realize is that I take it as a compliment.

There's a difference between being an elitist, and being against obvious exploits.

wuhsin

lolsorhand wrote: »

There's a difference between being an elitist, and being against obvious exploits.

The Foundry is very important to me. I'd REALLY hate to see it ruined because the devs neglected to stop exploits like this. Just imagine what it will be like by the time about ten more guys post maps like this, and they all get hundreds of five stars, and all make alts to down-vote all their competition.... It's only going to get worse unless action is taken. The law of entropy states any process left unattended will go from a state of higher order to a state of higher disorder, and that's basically what we're seeing here.

zahinder

NW is not going to significantly police abuse, they just don't have the manpower.

All we can hope for is a few demonstrations and better systems.

lolsorhand

zahinder wrote: »

NW is not going to significantly police abuse, they just don't have the manpower.

All we can hope for is a few demonstrations and better systems.

Doesn't require manpower to remove a foundry that's clearly an abuse of their system. It's quite simple actually.

Edit: And this from one who doesn't even normally care about them, it has been sitting there quite calmly now for 2-3 weeks lol.)

wuhsin

lolsorhand wrote: »

Doesn't require manpower to remove a foundry that's clearly an abuse of their system. It's quite simple actually.

Edit: And this from one who doesn't even normally care about them, it has been sitting there quite calmly now for 2-3 weeks lol.)

Clicking a mouse does not require a lot of man-power... These guys should really try some of the manual labor a lot of us have to do for a living, just to buy their forty dollar mounts... And then make their quests for them on the side for free...

zahinder

But they'd have to devote someone to actually play through the mission, and then possibly to through some process to get someone with authority to sign off on removing it.

Plus any mission they remove is a potential source of complaint and problems.

chili1179

<chili1179 believes that> very few of the devs care about the foundry. Why? No profit motive.

We will see a trickle of updates here and there for the foundry while the main game gets hammered with content updates to keep the player base happy with dailies, achievements and cosmetic items that allow players to spend money to stay at the top of the game.

I dare a dev to prove me wrong.

wuhsin

chili1179 wrote: »

<chili1179 believes that> very few of the devs care about the foundry. Why? No profit motive.

We will see a trickle of updates here and there for the foundry while the main game gets hammered with content updates to keep the player base happy with dailies, achievements and cosmetic items that allow players to spend money to stay at the top of the game.

I dare a dev to prove me wrong.

Wow chili. You have a pretty valid point about there being no profit to the Foundry, and the rest of the game getting a lot more attention from the devs. The thing is, I'd love to pay for some Foundry packs if it would motivate the devs into giving the Foundry a little more love. The Gods know I use the Foundry way more than I'll ever use the white tiger mount I just purchased. But dang, how can I NOT buy a white tiger mount? The devs got me good when they made that one. lol