AP build?

skyewolf1

OK I've see the CWs that seem to be able to cast Arcane Singularity almost one after the other and I'm wonder what they're using for AP gain?

I can't seem to gain AP fast enough to be able to cast it often enough to deal with adds in a timely manner. I realize there's probably a post in here already about it so if someone could just point me in the right direction that'd be great.

johneco1

The only time I have seen that is when they are able to group a bunch of mobs then cast AS, wait for them to drop out of the ball and then use shield on them which I guess regenerates a lot of action points. Here again though this is only when there are a lot of bad guys in one spot.

Here is a good example: http://www.twitch.tv/deagen/c/2325627

threeravens

You need:

1) 5+ mobs
2) the following aoe powers: Steal Time, Shield Pulse, Entangling Force in TAB
3) Procedure: cast Singularity to gather them in -> Shield pulse them when they're about to get sucked in (that way AS will still pull them back in a tight group) -> cast Steal Time (have a round of at-wills or whatnot) -> cast Entangling Force

With enough mobs (5 probably won't be enough unless you have a lot of AP regen) this will regenerate your AP bubble from 0 to 100% in one rotation.

skyewolf1

Thank you . I was testing the shield pulse thing but without an actual mob to test on wasn't getting any good results. I did find a better rotation of powers to use to regenerate AP faster than what I *was* using. Steal Time generates a ridiculous amount in comparison to just about anything else (not including the shield pulse trick that I haven't tested out yet to get it right).

It's sad that storm pillar is so good at generating AP but so sucky in damage....I only have it slotted to generate AP between fights.

okaminosuke

It is not only about skills you use but also about stats you have. You need:
1. Proper skill rotation, described by above posters
2. High Intelligence + Wisdom
3. High Recovery (3k+ at least)
4. Proper treats giving bonus to AP gain.

Having this all makes going AP instantly from empty to full possible even with smaller amount of mobs/worse positioning. In some fights every second of delay with casting your daily may cost you and your team life so most efficient build and skill rotation is crucial for CW. Some players don't give a **** about high recovery/ap gain and focus mainly on dps. Well I wish them luck when they go as a solo CW. They will need it.

skyewolf1

okaminosuke wrote: »

It is not only about skills you use but also about stats you have. You need:
1. Proper skill rotation, described by above posters
2. High Intelligence + Wisdom
3. High Recovery (3k+ at least)
4. Proper treats giving bonus to AP gain.

Having this all makes going AP instantly from empty to full possible even with smaller amount of mobs/worse positioning. In some fights every second of delay with casting your daily may cost you and your team life so most efficient build and skill rotation is crucial for CW. Some players don't give a **** about high recovery/ap gain and focus mainly on dps. Well I wish them luck when they go as a solo CW. They will need it.

Thanks for this. I'm definitely on the low end on recovery but then I'm still building my gear set as well so I've got a little leeway still there. I'm still carrying green rings. My dps and damage is mostly for keeping me alive at this point and helping on the boss when I'm not dealing with adds.

I still need practice but I'll be honest, out of my toons (TR, DC and CW) I'm rather enjoying my CW the most so far.

hellorco

I tend to AS then ST immediatedly after so I can pop shield well before AS sucks all up. With shield fix I basically recast shield while mobs do last 2s of the animation and once out I EF to keep them grouped then I have a short mm combo and ST is up again (in case I'm not already full on AP again). I feel safer with ST just after AS, you can run close to the singularity without having mobs **** you.

tyrtallow

There is not so much an AP build as an AP setup. And playstyle is what dictates whether a CW is acting stupidly or not. Your build has little to do with it - the only requirement is that you don't skip AS, Steal Time and probably Enfeeble/Shield + paragon feat-related ones. Even a CW who went all Int/Cha is going to be able to chain AS as long as he/she stacks recovery, which all CWs must do. Then, for course, there's the Archmage set.

And there is no CW "rotation". If we go by WoW terms, we have "priority system". While some spells do work better in sequence, timing is also important. You might want to hold back casting Steal Time for just a few seconds if you expect the cleric's Astral Shield to go out while you're surrounded, for example.

skyewolf1

So what, in you guy's opinion is better in the tab, EF or CoI? I've got CoI in there right now but I'm still just testing.

okaminosuke

skyewolf1 wrote: »

So what, in you guy's opinion is better in the tab, EF or CoI? I've got CoI in there right now but I'm still just testing.

Tabbed Entangling Force generates a lot of AP if cast properly so it's definitely the best skill to put into mastery slot for most fights.

However for some encounters you would want to sacrifice a bit of AP gain and put Repel into your mastery slot to throw group of mobs from cliffs. This is very situational so you make this switch only when you know you will have a chance to use it soon enough.

Conduit of Ice is a very good skill for Thaumaturge for its -15% mitigation debuff but I wouldn't put this one into mastery slot and I don't know any CW doing this. Entangling Force is too good for AP gain to replace it under tab button.

skyewolf1

Thanks! Yeah that's what I was wondering, and I like the way EF pulls mobs back together again when used in the tab slot.

kerrovitarra

okaminosuke wrote: »

Conduit of Ice is a very good skill for Thaumaturge for its -15% mitigation debuff but I wouldn't put this one into mastery slot and I don't know any CW doing this. Entangling Force is too good for AP gain to replace it under tab button.

Lol'd hard. Tell me any fight, where tabbed EF is better, than anything. As for me, i use EF only in PvP. For PvE this skill is near to useless. If you not a "b*tch duty" support mage, ofc.
CoI + IT + ST + Shield - best AoE damage and control combo. For PvE mage. PvE mage = thau tree. Rene sucks hard.

okaminosuke

kerrovitarra wrote: »

Lol'd hard. Tell me any fight, where tabbed EF is better, than anything. As for me, i use EF only in PvP. For PvE this skill is near to useless. If you not a "b*tch duty" support mage, ofc.

You can lol if you are ignorant and arrogant. This skill in tab slot requires no special explanation if you have brains to know when to use it. Don't want to get more than half of your AP bar instantly filled with one skill, putting minions together to make everyone's job easier? Your choice.

kerrovitarra

Man, shield burst do this work better than wasted mastery slot. I can maintain AS near 150% uptime on large (10~15 ea) packs (another AS even before previous explodes). I don't encountered any fight, where tabbed EF is needed. And I have only 3k recovery with INT+CHA build. So, you didn't answer, where tabbed EF is needed? For helping your TR taking first place in damage meter?

tyrtallow

Tabbed CoI does massive damage when combined with Icy Terrain/Storm Spell and it usually ends up freezing all nearby mobs as a bonus. With the above powers its main function is for DPS/control in areas where you can't throw enemies off cliffs, while at the same time proccing set bonuses. A favorite and integral part of the many standard setups among Renegades I know, since Renegades benefit the party more when they are spamming Magic Missiles on everything. CoI, being a fire and forget spell, is perfect for them.

And since we're on the topic, each CW is expected to be versatile and have several power setups, btw - swapping in/out powers until you find the ones that benefit your team most is normal unless you only run dungeons with one particular group.

skyewolf1

I'm LOLing now because this is the exact same argument(?) I keep running into throughout The Library forum . It seems we all have powers/feats/builds we like/are accustomed to or that we feel most comfortable with. I have no doubt I will eventually find mine. My main question was what builds AP quickest since I knew there were plenty of CWs out there that could cast AS in a much quicker succession than I seemed to be able to. So far Tabbed EF seems to build it faster than tabbed CoI...I like IT so I'm trying to find a place to slot that into my regular power usage. At this point I think it's either going to take the place of CoI or Shield since I haven't quite got the timing down just yet on the shield pulse/AS trick.

edited to add: Probably shield because now that I think about it IT plus CoI is good for freezing mobs into place and I have a lot of feats boosting my chill powers. (Speced Thaumaturge)

kerrovitarra

Could't agree with rene build. CoI better for thau, cause it does guaranteed bonus damage to you and party. And rene loses to thau in single target fights.

tyrtallow

A Renegade who tries outDPSing a Thaum using the standard method is doing it wrong. We are a tactical spec. In any case, you shouldn't be trying to outDPS a Thaum anyway.

But for the sake of argument if you can get Chaos Magic on multiple mobs (I have yet to fully understand how the effects stack on a single mob) and managed to consistently stack the +15% power bonus on you from multiple sources before you unload your strongest powers (yes they stack), then you might pull it off. If you get the healing effects instead... meh. At least you're still being an invaluable member of the group.

kerrovitarra

And what is a +15% of power? 450 power from 3k. And how much it gives bonus damage to your abilities? Hover cursor over your power stat in character list.

tyrtallow

Like I said, multiple instances. 5 targets bearing the +15% bonus is +75% power. I have yet to fully understand how it all stacks on just one mob though. And there's the resistance mitigation to go with it.

skyewolf1

Thanks everyone. Thanks to you guys I've got a basic powers set up that works much better for building AP and mob fights that I can now tweak to work with my own fighting style!

So nice to find helpful people in the forums for a change!

+1

hellorco

Rene doesn't get much using CoI, Thaum does, and tabbing it increases also the radius of the debuff, so no question about that. If you don't need dps EF on tab is just much easier AP generation, IT is a fixed value and doen't crit (so no additional AP from critPower), CoI doesn't stack that much and as Rene I like to group up mob with EF to optimize MM procs (if God blesses you, Chaos Magic has a rather small area).

threeravens

Just remember that the argument rolling around in this and other topic actually has a very solid underlying basis:

Which powers you use depends on the situation, the encounter, the group you are with, your feats. That's why for one tabbed ET is used for most fights, while for the other it will be CoI. You now have a solid basis of knowing what does what when - working out the rest is prretty much a case by case basis.

Example one: I'm in a group with a TR and GWF, they're doing alright dps-wise - I'm slotting CoI in TAB most likely.
Example two: I'm in a group with a second CW - I ask what he's using and end up switching out my CoI and IT for RoE and ET

etc. etc. etc.

skyewolf1

I've found a lot of groups expect like 100% uptime for Arcane Singularity from a single CW (Much like they expect the 100% uptime from Astral Shield from a DC even AFTER the nerf :P) so that's basically what I was trying to accomplish because my previously slotted powers were giving me precious little AP gain. It makes perfect sense to switch out your powers according to the situation though. I think CWs have a wider range of Powers to do this with compared to other classes.