Farewell Foundry

katah1969 · June 2013

It is with a heavy heart and great frustration that I have decided to stop creating within the Foundry and publishing my works. I've decided upon this course of action for four reasons.

First, the current method in which Foundry creators are recognized is flawed beyond belief. So much so that from the start I've questioned myself as to why I want to put so much time and energy into creating something that chances are will never be brought to light and if I am lucky enough to get some spotlight my quest will be subject to hoards of children who simply lack the maturity to rate something with rational and reason. Free to play and especially free to download with nothing but an email address is always going to be like this. Also, I am sick of seeing Foundry NON-Quests getting the spot light. Hate me, bash me, whatever but a quest that is not a quest should not be in the best category. I simply shouldn't be regardless of if you agree or not.

Second, the rating and review system offers no reward to the creator. When people have the ability to stealth rate 1 and 2 star reviews with no opportunity given to make the experience better, there can be no Foundry winners. My quest is by no means a solid 5 star quest, but I guarantee it is not a 1, 2 or even a 3 star quest either. If you don't know me or have not seen my quest then I invite you to go take a quick look before I withdraw it. Simply search for Exarah's Tomb and it will appear.

Third, my work is being reviewed and rated by an uneducated and ignorant game community. How is a person who does not know or understand Foundry creator limitations supposed to really rate our work based on what they experienced? I've been rated low stars from everything based on loot drops, to encounter difficulty, to the player getting an Ogre achievement while killing a Kobold because I needed a boss type encounter just to name a few. The quest is too easy for 3 out of 5 classes and too hard for the remaining 2 - no matter how easy it is. At level 20 a control wizard struggles and eats potions like mad doing what a level 20 guardian can do on the hardest setting on my slider. The player base simply does not know what the Foundry can or cannot do so if something limits them (3 stars from a control wizard because there was nothing to "control" /shrug) they bite back with 1, 2 or 3 starred teeth.

Fourth, and this is really my reason for stopping - I simply am not thick skinned enough to go in one day with 4 and half stars and the very next I'm down to 4. If my quest sucked I'd at least understand. I think I'll just play the game now and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks of my creation.

Anyway... flame away if you need I understand these rants suck, but is some small measure it helps.

Good luck to the Foundry Community... I'll see ya in your quests!

Take care everyone.

kurre2 · June 2013

I know the feelin and I can totally see where you are coming from. I do. But honestly, why bother how a bunch of anonymous people rate your work? If the building is fun, keep building, don't bother about the HAMSTER. They will always be there in one form or another. Build for yourself. And if that isnt fun...well you are doing the right thing. Take care.

zahinder · June 2013

Search is so f'd that star rating is almost irrelevant for people finding/playing your missions.

So why care at all about rating?

Me, I live for the fraction who enjoy and appreciate the kind of quests I develop.

But if you don't have the stomach for that, fair enough -- better to decide now than flame-out in four months.

dzogen · June 2013

Obviously by your post/ rant the adulation and ratings of the community is of great importance to you. Yet you say the community is "uneducated and ignorant." You may want to look at what that's all about.

Good luck to you. Maybe you can find a better place to tell your stories without so many morons in it.

zoiks100 · June 2013

You're putting too much emphasis on the rating system. Don't fall into the trap of expecting 5s just because most people give them out like candy, they're misusing the system just as badly as the people who use low scores out of spite.

Would you honestly rate your quest at 4.5 stars? Remember, if you're using the 5 star system the correct way that means 4.5 is better than great, but a little less than exceptional.

If you would, then I guess it might be best to stop creating quests. Which is a shame because I thought that quest was pretty good at least in its current state.

If you wouldn't, then why put so much emphasis on keeping a rating you wouldn't even give yourself?

There are lots of valid reasons to lose interest in creating quests with the foundry, it's very flawed currently and you even touch on a few of its flaws in your post. But personally I don't consider ratings to be an even remotely valid reason. If you can ignore the ratings, then I hope you change your mind. If not, well farewell then I suppose.

oortexplorer · June 2013

Hopefully you'll reconsider once you've calmed down and thought it through. Just have to decide what is most important to you, I guess. If you can get some people to play and really enjoy your quest, it's a success regardless of all the other b.s. There are stupid and immature people playing Neverwinter, but that will always be the case with every game, movie, book, etc. etc. etc. There are also lots of really cool people. The quest screen is not perfect, but I've gotten a feel for how it's set up and it isn't that bad. Definitely needs to be re-worked, but the more reviews you build up, the less important the odd 1 or 2 star review becomes. They have already said there is a revamp of the rating & search system for the Foundry in the works. Stay patient, it's coming.

I've been following a few quests I really liked (including yours) and I think you're up over 600 reviews in what is really, in the grand scheme of things, a pretty short amount of time. I just got a couple of back-to-back 1 star reviews after slowly building up my score and there is no doubt it's hella-frustrating. But I am getting plays every day, and working to make the next one even better. Most of your reviews are very positive - focus on them and ignore the clowns. It won't be long before you're over a thousand plays. Even if it falls off, if you make another kickass quest and people subscribe to you, they'll discover this one as well.

TL : DR version - don't withdraw your quest! It's really good. Ignore the stupid people, and enjoy the fact that hundreds of people have played and enjoyed it.

xhrit · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

I think I'll just play the game now and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks of my creation.

Do what makes you happy. If you are making foundry quests for fame and glory, you are doing it wrong. If you are making quests that you want to play then who cares what anyone else thinks?

raphaeldisanto · June 2013

If the only reason you create something is for the recognition and adulation you hope to achieve from it I venture to suggest you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons.

zahinder · June 2013

Man. I wish I had 600 plays! Heh.

shorlong · June 2013

zahinder wrote: »

Man. I wish I had 600 plays! Heh.

No kidding! Mine was streamed, has three video reviews and was even reviewed on an external site (I didn't even know that happened, I just randomly googled my short code and found it...) and I STILL have less than 80 plays and 55 reviews...

And you know what? I'm not leaving the Foundry. I am working on perfecting it, making it better, and the people who liked it will hopefully replay, and I will make the next 9 quests as planned, even if it's just for the 40 some people who enjoyed the first one.

warpact · June 2013

The anonymous 1-2 star ratings can be frustrating, but ones where they actually leave a comment can be funny when you think about it. Too long, little reward, no resource nodes, or other nonsensical things. My favorite is, I hate spiders. If they're going to waste their time running your entire mission just to troll you, then let them. The more visible your content, the more likely you are to be subject to trolls. That's an inescapable truth.

glantorx · June 2013

Yes some people are born awkward for instance I have a quest in beta protected by a 4 digit code lock to stop people from running it and rating/commenting before it's ready BUT someone hacked in and complained that it was unfinished had some errors and some bad dialog, even when it was stated in BETA do not play, Go figure. As stated above if you enjoy the making then that is reward enough, you will never stop the idiots from making fools of themselves because that's what they do.

mandodo69 · June 2013

I cant say I fully agree but he/she does have a point. When you create and publish a quest, it gets lost and you have to search for it. I currently have 2 and the only way to find them is to "Search" them(typing not scrolling on anything like that). So if you create a foundry mission and publish it, there is NO way to even know it exists unless somebody tells somebody. Plus it's not like we have a shard wide listings board where we can post for everybody to see and say, "Hey guy's, I have a new foundry mission out". Also I know some people will complain about my post and before you do, I AM a SILVERSTAR(special foundry access before game went into closed beta) and I do not care about star ratings or AD donations. Almost ALL of the "Best" and "Featured" were out in closed beta since the start and people who played beta to see how foundry missions work only played those 20 missions and thats ALL we had in closed beta. So these foundry missions had already 5 stars and were labled "Best" and "Featured" before the 2nd close beta. I have been here since alpha started and again I am a silverstar. So my rant here that has prevented me from doing any more is because when you create and publish a quest, it gets lost unless somebody(s) features it. I am the guild leader of The Guild Of Icewind Dale and all 140 guildies could not find my foundry mission without "searching" for it. On top of that I had to tell them to search my @handle so it would even show up. A lot of people are having this problem. In beta we could scroll EVERY mission created. Now it get's harder and harder to promote your mission. BTW you can look here in the forums and find sections where people posted their missions but, like most, I almost never visit the site, seeing as how I have a guild website free of trolls. So I hope posting this was the right thing to do and maybe I should keep this to my guild website but, I do hold hope that there is some decent people swimming these forums.

mandodo69 · June 2013

I also wanted to add that the "Daily Foundry" was a stupid idea. Maybe not at first but, in time it did make people not want to play foundry missions unless they can recieve quest rewards for the Daily. Now there are missions that I played that are superb but have little to no rating so they dont qualify for daily quest rewards. Sadly because of this 80%(im just guessing) of people wont play foundry missions unless they can get that AD from the daily quests.

glantorx · June 2013

mandodo69 wrote: »

I also wanted to add that the "Daily Foundry" was a stupid idea. Maybe not at first but, in time it did make people not want to play foundry missions unless they can recieve quest rewards for the Daily. Now there are missions that I played that are superb but have little to no rating so they don't qualify for daily quest rewards. Sadly because of this 80%(im just guessing) of people wont play foundry missions unless they can get that AD from the daily quests.

Totally agree this is the major problem, even with a top notch quest it can still not be found or played, only the current top ones get played over and over again just because people can find them. We need some sort of classification set by the authors, as used in these forums #combat, #story. #puzzle etc. The daily quest should be reworked as stated here on the forums before so as longer quests are attractive to play and reviewing new ones gains a bonus.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

Third, my work is being reviewed and rated by an uneducated and ignorant game community.

Welcome to your new life as a commercial artist. The artist is always to blame despite what limitations you may have. I am not mocking you by the way, I am just telling you how it really is.

redneckronin · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

It is with a heavy heart and great frustration that I have decided to stop creating within the Foundry and publishing my works. I've decided upon this course of action for four reasons.

I understand to some extent all of the reasons you have listed.

I wish you well wherever you go from here.

I'm going to say just one thing about why I make Foundry Quest: because I enjoy the challenge of crafting a story (which was why for 19 of the 20 years I was a PnP Roleplayer I was the DM/GM). For me it is crafting the story that matters.

I'm not great with the Foundry Tools, but I can tell a story.

Now, I'm sure a lot of the people who play Foundry Quests are looking for something that is quick and easy and doesn't require too much thinking just to qualify for the Foundry Daily.

So be it, they are missing out on some truly excellent story telling. Quests like Mind Of Darkness, Nightmare On Market Street, Bonderleaf's Thorough Aggregator etc all take story-telling to a level so far not even imagined by the people who create "official" content. Now I am reasonably certain my "story crafting" is close to that level, but my ability to deliver that via the Foundry is still no "there". So I still create Foundry content to hone my understanding and use of the Foundry so that I can improve on the visual and interactive elements of my story-crafting.

Yeah, the review system is open to abuse, and most players who have never even tried to populate an empty room (much less craft an entire quest) with the Foundry will never appreciate just how much effort goes in to making a Quest.

Hanging around the Forums you get familiar with the names, and when I get a review from a fellow Author, I am always happy even if it is not the 4 or 5 star review I would, deep down, like because I know I'll be getting "informed" feedback.

I'll be honest here, the highlight of my Foundry Career was getting a 5 Star rating for the story and NPC crafting in Part 2 of my campaign from an Author whose work is miles ahead of my own. Yes it made me "feel good", and it was more than enough to off set any bad reviews from non-Author players.

Which is why I'd like to see an Author Review phase for publishing, so that the initial response to our work is from fellow Authors who not only understand the effort required, but who can help us hone our quests before going properly "live" with them.

Ultimately, I do this because I enjoy it. I was happy with Part 1 of my campaign, until I learned what I learned making Part 2. Now Part 1 seems lacklustre and somewhat amateurish and I will revisit it to fine tune it.

But if all my reviews for Part 1 had been "lols u suk 1 star" ratings, I'd still have had a crack at Part 2.

I guess what I'm saying is do you believe your Foundry Quest was a "good piece of work", would you be happy with it if you were your only critic? And if the answer to that is Yes, then you don't really need the rating system, and nor should you care about the effect "trolls" have on it.

All The Best

maerwin · June 2013

In PnP, you would be happy if 6-7 people enjoyed your quest. Here, your quest has been played by 600 people. With 4 stars as average, that's at least 400-500 who liked it. I'd say that's pretty **** success! Why care about those who didn't like it?

also:

...My quest is by no means a solid 5 star quest...
... I simply am not thick skinned enough to go in one day with 4 and half stars and the very next I'm down to 4

You are contradicting yourself. You don't think your quest deserves 5 stars, yet get upset when people give it 4 stars on average? That doesn't make sense

oortexplorer · June 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

Now, I'm sure a lot of the people who play Foundry Quests are looking for something that is quick and easy and doesn't require too much thinking just to qualify for the Foundry Daily.

So be it, they are missing out on some truly excellent story telling. Quests like Mind Of Darkness, Nightmare On Market Street, Bonderleaf's Thorough Aggregator etc all take story-telling to a level so far not even imagined by the people who create "official" content.

This is really a key point that needs to be underlined. There are a number of people looking for a "daily', who may not necessarily be interested in story or map crafting. They want a 15-minute run to get some astral diamonds. Some of them are not particularly bright, some are just very young, some are great people who haven't really given the Foundry all that much thought. All we can do, really, is provide great quests and hope that they enjoy them. Any of these people can burn through a quest and give it a low rating for whatever reason, without thinking it has any real importance.

For me personally, I am very interested in story and after playing a few foundry missions that were generally okay or mediocre, it was only when I started working on my own and play-testing a bunch here on the forum that I realized how much quality work there is in there. I think it's the same for a lot of people.

Red's post reminds me that I had Market Street in my queue when I started posting here, and never ended up playing it because I was testing so many new quests. Since I love the other two he mentioned, I will play it and also Red's quest shortly. Word of mouth may move slowly, but it's the best form of advertising.

drakesigar · June 2013

maerwin wrote: »

In PnP, you would be happy if 6-7 people enjoyed your quest. Here, your quest has been played by 600 people. With 4 stars as average, that's at least 400-500 who liked it. I'd say that's pretty **** success! Why care about those who didn't like it?

There are just over 600 reviews, but as for actual plays the quest info claims almost 1000.

This is like a millionaire claiming he has no money.

katah1969 wrote: »

I've questioned myself as to why I want to put so much time and energy into creating something that chances are will never be brought to light

katah1969 wrote: »

My quest is by no means a solid 5 star quest, but I guarantee it is not a 1, 2 or even a 3 star quest either.

katah1969 wrote: »

Fourth, and this is really my reason for stopping - I simply am not thick skinned enough to go in one day with 4 and half stars and the very next I'm down to 4.

Oh the ego...

wuhsin · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

Fourth, and this is really my reason for stopping - I simply am not thick skinned enough to go in one day with 4 and half stars and the very next I'm down to 4. If my quest sucked I'd at least understand.

I've maintained an adjusted rating of 4.1 over the past couple of days. With over a hundred more reviews, most of which are five or four stars, my adjusted rating has PLUMMETED by 0.6 points. The average rating has not fallen. To me, these numbers just don't add up. I got another one star this morning, neither the adjusted or average rating have changed. But after getting about twenty more five stars, ten more four stars, and about five three stars, the adjusted rating SOMEHOW plummets. I don't understand it. I really think an admin or mod or somebody just clicked on my quest, and deducted however many points they wanted so that the newest exploit map could sit on top of mine for a while. Yeah, those few anonymous 1 stars are some bs, even worse is when you get a review from someone who obviously loved the map but they still give a HAMSTER poor rating.

"Wonderful concept! A refreshing break from typical foundries, I loved seeing the famous wizards, and making an army. I wish all Foundry missions were this good." - 2 stars.

lolsorhand · June 2013

warpact wrote: »

The anonymous 1-2 star ratings can be frustrating, but ones where they actually leave a comment can be funny when you think about it. Too long, little reward, no resource nodes, or other nonsensical things. My favorite is, I hate spiders. If they're going to waste their time running your entire mission just to troll you, then let them. The more visible your content, the more likely you are to be subject to trolls. That's an inescapable truth.

Yes haha.. Best ones I've seen so far is "easy" and "good encounters, bad story." On my Hack n' slash

wuhsin · June 2013

lolsorhand wrote: »

Yes haha.. Best ones I've seen so far is "easy" and "good encounters, bad story." On my Hack n' slash

I used the difficulty slider mechanism to give players a choice between an easy mode and a hard mode in my map. I still get plenty of down-votes because it's too easy.

delthanin · June 2013

wuhsin wrote: »

I used the difficulty slider mechanism to give players a choice between an easy mode and a hard mode in my map. I still get plenty of down-votes because it's too easy.

I've actually gotten the comment along the lines of "Played on easy diff. Boss was too easy."

That said, there's been a good number of helpful comments that I'm keeping in mind for my next quest.

runis12 · June 2013

"i wandered around forever trying to get to places on the map i can see but can't get to, wtf"

#Jump #Puzzle

timmen · June 2013

I made a HAMSTER map just for fun, and got a fair 2 stars. Though it took me about four hours to make it.
I wish they add boss encounters, so you can make a real dungeon.
And i do play others foundrys too, and review them the best i can, i look for the not reviewed ones.
sry for my crappy english.

vold316 · June 2013

I also quit the foundry, but it's more like a break. When they rethink the review system, specially for quests on review, not yet daily; and remove some big limitations I'll gladly come back to complete my unfinished job.

sphecida · June 2013

I wish I had even 20 plays on mine, and yes, it does suck when people don't read what your quest is about and then give it a low rating. I try to remind myself that I started working in the Foundry for myself. I wanted to learn how it worked, see what I could create with it, and if just one friend enjoyed my story, that was cool. I expect my quest will never see the light of day, but I'm going ahead with part 2 anyway. I'm still learning how to use the limited tools to make something more engaging, and you know what? When you compare Foundry quests to the game maps, the Foundry ones are just way more creative and interesting.

I totally understand your frustration with the system, and I don't mind your rant at all. I hope you leave your quest up, because I want to play it. Meanwhile, keep pushing for a better way to search quests and categorizing quests by type so that players can find the ones they enjoy.

I think the best part of participating in the Foundry has been meeting the other authors. I didn't expect to find such a smart, funny and kind group of people in this game.

zahinder · June 2013

Even with some of the personalities and drama, I've found the Foundry authors a much better, positive community than the general population.

Not... that that's a high bar, of course.

mrthebozer · June 2013

sphecida wrote: »

I didn't expect to find such a smart, funny and kind group of people in this game.

Not to mention helpful. The fact that folks are willing to take the time to proofread - actually proofread - the work of a stranger takes a baffling amount of generosity that I can only do my best to emulate with my own reviews, though time and my own ability to do so are not always on my side.

To Katah, I played "Exarah's" a while back and left the quest looking forward to a part 2. If it is not meant to be, then so be it - there is absolutely no reason to continue content creation if you are not getting what you want out of it. But I urge you, if you are in any way on the fence about this move, to take a second look at your reviews. Read the positive feedback, of which there is plenty, and ask yourself if people were enjoying it for the reasons you were happy enough with it to publish. If so, you reached your audience and connected with them successfully, which is no small feat.

1 Star reviews can mean anything. They can be objective honesty, subjective honesty, malicious dishonesty, sabotage, trolling, chemically enhanced, or a finger slip. The thing they are most likely to have in common is that they were left with little to no concern for the implication or consequence. With few exceptions, 1 star means the player just doesn't care either way, and never intended to.

I won't say to ignore the player count and star rating. Whatever your motivation, or how clear the unreliable nature of the rating system is, the numbers serve to encourage or discourage at some level. Simply put, kind words feel good. Just consider weighing in the reasons behind the numbers. If the good reviews match your goals, the bad reviews are weightless.

And whatever your decision, just make sure you are having fun.

hawthornberry · June 2013

glantorx wrote: »

The daily quest should be reworked as stated here on the forums before so as longer quests are attractive to play and reviewing new ones gains a bonus.

What I especially like about these ideas is that they're fairly easy for PerfectWorld to implement, yet would solve so much. It's one thing to say things like "give us more complex plot control" which would be a huge investment, but something as simple as "make a 30 minute average playtime count as two, not one, quest for the Daily Foundry quest" is something that a coder can probably do in an hour or two, but it would solve so much.

And giving an incentive to rating a quest that has few ratings would be easy enough -- even a token reward of 50 diamonds for submitting a rating for a rarely-rated quest is easy to code. (Though there's an exploit possibility there, in that you can publish a practically empty quest so your friends can rate it for the 50 each, then delete it, rinse and repeat. That one might take a little work to prevent.)

Doesn't mean we wouldn't like better control of objects, more assets, real boss fights, etc. but those are probably a lot bigger requests. These are probably easier to do than to explain.

Farewell Foundry

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