That's different, that's called jumping after than falling on safe ground. What I am talking about is that in d&d 4e, they have a chance not to fall at all from the edge.
If they are blown nowhere near the edge but past it they should not have a roll to land where they simply are not. Sunburst is my main defense in PvP and you want to make those not already immune to it less effected. I'd have to say go to hell on that notion, clerics have already been nerfed to the ground in PvP. In d&d 4e the direction in which everything is blown isn't individually calcuted, in this game it is and there is your chance.
My 2c, so feel free to disagree.
Cliff-Tossing is an interesting mechanic that requires positioning and timing. It's not just press a button and win as many think it is. I don't see the big problem in "requiring" a cw, nobody whines about requiring a dc, also it isn't true that a cw is required, GFs can do the same job most of the time.
I don't know why so many people think that trash mobs MUST be slaugthered at all costs or it's a cheat. I really don't like this way of thinking, it's like saying that you have to kill a boss in 5 minutes, so when you gear up you must slow your dps or you are cheating.
Every dungeons should be designed with skippable packs of mobs and required ones. If all adds were to be killed I don't think you could get by in any T2 with a full group of 12k gs geared people in less than 2 hours during a farm run.
Punting is a legitimate strat, it's not a cheat. There are mobs immune to positional displacement for a reason, there are invisible walls (which I hate since if you can't toss, there should be a visible obstacle) and you trade a fast kill for no loot.
Trash mobs has and always will be a time sink, the problem here vs tabletop D&D is that once you know the shortcut, everyone does that because you reapeatedly do the same content over and over. That's why I really hope they expand the foundry to create new dungeons and encounter design.
On a sidenote I'm amused that some people think you can replicate exactly a pen&paper game in an action MMO.
First of all D&D is based on luck of the draw (not that is totally random, but the random factor of a roll has a very high weight in the success), this is a high skill-cap game.
Second it isn't realtime, you don't need split-second reactions, you can "pause" it whenever you want.
Third you play with RL friends and your dm can alter the rules to accomodate the game.
Fourth you don't farm the same place, you generally have unique experiences every time and there are no bugs you can exploit.
EDIT: I think adding weight to mobs would introduce some nice and interesting additional factors for tossing. It doesn't make much sense that I can throw the same distance a mob which is twice as tall as me and a mob which is 1/3rd of me.
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al3xdentonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
My 2c, so feel free to disagree.
Cliff-Tossing is an interesting mechanic that requires positioning and timing. It's not just press a button and win as many think it is.
This.
As a CW I am just tired of hearing people complaining, people who do not even have a clue about how the cw's mechanics work.
Especially since last patch and DC nerfs, a CW has to move, dodge, generate tons of AP, place singularity correctly and can't afford to miss the timing of the push. I am not saying this is insanely hard, but at least it is far from being a no-brainer-win-button-gameplay.
So I feel sad for the OP that it does not feel the dungeons like CN to be epic, but for CWs it is. I can share his disapointment in dungeons where CWs are completely useless, like Frozen Heart.
There is a problem and it is not the tossing mechanics, but the million adds spawning over and over again. And one last thing : pushing trash in the void is just so much fun, I would regret that the devs take that fun away.
If they are blown nowhere near the edge but past it they should not have a roll to land where they simply are not. Sunburst is my main defense in PvP and you want to make those not already immune to it less effected. I'd have to say go to hell on that notion, clerics have already been nerfed to the ground in PvP. In d&d 4e the direction in which everything is blown isn't individually calcuted, in this game it is and there is your chance.
I am talking about how it works in D&D 4e, I couldn't care less about what you QQ about clerics in PvP.
Also, I am talking about different things:
It is not about where the mob is going to land, the thing is that in d&d4e, the mobs can only be pushed away, but never upwards; so if the mob is pushed next to the edge of a cliff (bottomless or not), they have a save roll to grab themselves to the edge before than falling; if they fail the roll they will fall and will suffer of falling damage, given the distance to the bottom, they will either die or not; then if they stay alive, they can climb, jump, find the way around, whatever.
In NW, there is not a save roll to prevent you from falling of the cliffs, there is only a chance to fall into a safe ground without dying and the mobs have that weird ability to jump long distances (talking about trash mobs).
I am not against this mechanic, I think its great, but what I also think is that the mobs/players should have a chance to grab themselves to the ground before than falling 1 inch of the cliff; if that's too hard to do, then a chance to reduce the pushback distance; otherwise a chance to resist the pushback.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
so wait, mobs can push you down a cliff but you can't?
Because while leveling for the first time ever in this game I got pushed and instantly killed by one of those rat-like things in the jungley map where you have to fix bridges, and yeah it was a cliff.
So then i took revenge and when i got back i casted a divine sunburst. I enjoyed it. I loved it. Since then i have pushed everyhing i could from cliffs/ledges/whatever .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I want this class in NW.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As a CW I am just tired of hearing people complaining, people who do not even have a clue about how the cw's mechanics work.
Especially since last patch and DC nerfs, a CW has to move, dodge, generate tons of AP, place singularity correctly and can't afford to miss the timing of the push. I am not saying this is insanely hard, but at least it is far from being a no-brainer-win-button-gameplay.
So I feel sad for the OP that it does not feel the dungeons like CN to be epic, but for CWs it is. I can share his disapointment in dungeons where CWs are completely useless, like Frozen Heart.
There is a problem and it is not the tossing mechanics, but the million adds spawning over and over again. And one last thing : pushing trash in the void is just so much fun, I would regret that the devs take that fun away.
Wow, you have to move around.....So hard.
It is just press a button and win. You just do the same thing over and over again and it makes killing the boss in CN so easy a wow kid could do it with his eyes closed.
I realize without doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE to even beat the boss but I'd rather have it unbeatable than be the easiest thing in the game to do. So they need to fix the boss fights, I get it. However, what you are saying is just not true. It is a no brainer and you know it.
It is just press a button and win. You just do the same thing over and over again and it makes killing the boss in CN so easy a wow kid could do it with his eyes closed.
I realize without doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE to even beat the boss but I'd rather have it unbeatable than be the easiest thing in the game to do. So they need to fix the boss fights, I get it. However, what you are saying is just not true. It is a no brainer and you know it.
You are not playing CW do you? IT IS NOT EASY...
Exactly as the guy said, it's not a nightmare difficulty but it's far far away from being easy. And exactly as he pointed out , especially after nerfs..
Have you actually ever finished CN after patch? I can tell you that you need two CW's and both needs to hell know what to do.
Sorry I never post here but I had to just because the sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is staggering. I'm honestly not sure if its the players of Cryptic's fault at this point. Let me put it this way:
Cryptic created two classes.
One that specializes in knocking mobs off cliffs (CW)
One that specializes in doing damage to large amounts of grouped up enemies (GWF)
And no one thought that these classes mechanics would clash? BWAHAHAAHA.
This forum gets better every time I pop in to see how NW is doing lol. You know it's bad when 90% of threads are fix this, fix that, omg this is broken, I'm quitting, etc.
And whats better, is people actually defend some of the broken mechanics. Like a tabletop D&D game tailor made for you and 4 of your friends holds the same merit when applied to thousands of online players.
It is just press a button and win. You just do the same thing over and over again and it makes killing the boss in CN so easy a wow kid could do it with his eyes closed.
I realize without doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE to even beat the boss but I'd rather have it unbeatable than be the easiest thing in the game to do. So they need to fix the boss fights, I get it. However, what you are saying is just not true. It is a no brainer and you know it.
So when you see people asking for EXPERIENCED CW for last boss in CN it must be overexxaggerating, not a real need.
Roll a cw, then go to CN and play solo, with an experienced cw and a bad one.
- Solo requires not only experience but gimmick gear (you know they changed aggro? guess who takes it now that AS is nerfed)
- Playing together with a bad cw is probably worse than solo, you screw up singularity timing and spread mobs around due to mistiming shield/repel
- Playing together with a good cw (supposing you are not the bad one:) gives you hints on where and when to use singularity and when and WHERE you should position to use your skills.
Are you a butthurt gf/gwf who isn't invited to CN cause you can't throw adds? I am sorry for you, I don't think this should happen. But that doesn't mean it's as forgiving as you think it is. Generally you screw up once and your party has to wipe. So if you thikn it's not a problem in therms of difficulty, is very annoying being the only responsible for a wipe.
One that specializes in knocking mobs off cliffs (CW)
One that specializes in doing damage to large amounts of grouped up enemies (GWF)
And no one thought that these classes mechanics would clash? BWAHAHAAHA. .
I don't really see the point. You just play differently depending on where you are and what is your group comp. The problem is when killing enemies is far worse than pushing them. For CN you want to throw wiz and wights on the balcony BECAUSE THEY CAN'T RESPAWN. If they didn't respawn, killing them would be an option.
And fyi, CWs has few spells which helps grouping up mobs and not everyone runs around with ice storm and shiled pop to spread them around.
It's not about the class, it's about the player's decisions.
Here's some advice for the CWs out there.. stop using any type of knockback power and let the GWFs do their job, which is chopping adds into little chunks instead of knocking the adds away from the GWFs stealing their damage.
And fyi, CWs has few spells which helps grouping up mobs and not everyone runs around with ice storm and shiled pop to spread them around.
It's not about the class, it's about the player's decisions.
That no one uses in most dungeons because why dps what you can just knock off a cliff? If you give players multiple ways to do something, they will always chose the easiest way. A group COULD run CN with 3 GWF, 1 DC, 1 Rouge, but it'll never happen because it's too difficult. It's bad game design all around. Bad mob design, bad level design, bad battle design, just bad.
Why do you think this game is flopping so badly? Cryptic has no clue how to balance a thing, they just attempt to fix anything the players cry about and this may come as a surprise, but the players don't have a clue about balance either. Every person will simply cry about any weakness their class has which creates a cycle of everyone wanting their class to be the best. Listening to the public too much leads to a hot mess. For example in this thread:
CW will always say that ledge killing is not op, because they are desired for it.
GWF will always say ledge killing is broken and needs to be removed, because it eliminates the main job of a GWF.
CW also has moves to pull mobs together, working nicely with GWF, but knocking mobs off ledges is easier so most don't do it.
Now the trick is to ask yourself, what would be better for the game. Not for you, but the game. The problem is that players rarely do that. Players just want their class to be the best or whatever makes raids go the fastest and to hell with everything else.
Now this happens in just about every MMO. The trick is to do whats best for the game, not necessarily the player. Now Cryptic needs to do whats best for the game, but they won't. They want subs, not a good game, so they'll appeal to which ever side cries the loudest in order to keep the most subs. (game is too far underwater to hope for new subs)
It's never really about player decisions in situations like this. Give a person 2 options, and they will always chose the quickest most efficient option, it's just human nature. The only way to change is to take away or fix one of the options.
Then get rid of the adds or make our power/skills more damaging as so we can out right kill them, pick your choice and like I said adds are not challenge, they are an annoyance.
P.S.: You OP are exactly what my sig describes.
Be a Leet D00D, can't think of something smart? Always blame the economy.
Kids should not have access to the internet, problem solved instantaneously. Btw, why don't you guys go exploit in rift? I heard it is the best place for special kids to play at these days. Go, go dum(b)steps-> burrrrrps, wadadadadada, burrrrrrrps.... crazy kids...
Serious now, i hope cryptic is going to to get rid of all the imbalances that are attracting certain "types" of people.
Here's some advice for the CWs out there.. stop using any type of knockback power and let the GWFs do their job, which is chopping adds into little chunks instead of knocking the adds away from the GWFs stealing their damage.
Which sounds fine in theory, but in practice it takes GWFs forever to AoE down anything but the weakest adds, assuming they can even get them grouped up close enough to hit them with their cleaves that cap at 5 targets, because they have to stop damage over and over to move out of the spammed AoE attacks that everything with more than 6 hit points seems to possess. That time spent moving out of the red circles of 10 mobs, moving around to a clear side (or in some cases simply having to wait till you can go back in) is time not spent on killing them, meaning those mobs put down even MORE red circles, which slows down the damage on them even more, and the vicious circle makes the whole experience unfun for you AND the group. I play a GWF and there are times I wish the CWs in these pugs WOULD toss a bunch of the adds off a cliff because they absolutely suck to kill. My own damage be damned, having to kill everything takes WAY too long.
CWs don't have that problem, even ignoring the cliff tossing, because they don't have to get back into melee range to deal their damage, they simply move to ANY clear spot and start damage again. Given this game's sick fetish for enemies that spam melee range AoE knockbacks, and AoEs in general, the CW's ability to operate from range, BY ITSELF, makes them a better class to bring, even if they technically deal less AoE damage than GWFs, for the sole reason that they can apply it more consistently.
To fix all this cliff tossing, and to give the GWF an actual role (that isn't speccing Sentinel and being OP in PvP), would probably require the total removal of the ability to toss mobs off cliffs, and a general nerfing of sizable proportions on all trash and add HP, and slow down the speed the adds spam AoEs.
OR.
There could be drastically less trash and adds, but they have the HP of the big adds we see today, and you need to single target them to get them down properly, and GWFs (and CWs) start dealing single target damage like TRs and lose the focus on AoE.
Which sounds fine in theory, but in practice it takes GWFs forever to AoE down anything but the weakest adds, assuming they can even get them grouped up close enough to hit them with their cleaves that cap at 5 targets, because they have to stop damage over and over to move out of the spammed AoE attacks that everything with more than 6 hit points seems to possess. That time spent moving out of the red circles of 10 mobs, moving around to a clear side (or in some cases simply having to wait till you can go back in) is time not spent on killing them, meaning those mobs put down even MORE red circles, which slows down the damage on them even more, and the vicious circle makes the whole experience unfun for you AND the group. I play a GWF and there are times I wish the CWs in these pugs WOULD toss a bunch of the adds off a cliff because they absolutely suck to kill. My own damage be damned, having to kill everything takes WAY too long.
CWs don't have that problem, even ignoring the cliff tossing, because they don't have to get back into melee range to deal their damage, they simply move to ANY clear spot and start damage again. Given this game's sick fetish for enemies that spam melee range AoE knockbacks, and AoEs in general, the CW's ability to operate from range, BY ITSELF, makes them a better class to bring, even if they technically deal less AoE damage than GWFs, for the sole reason that they can apply it more consistently.
To fix all this cliff tossing, and to give the GWF an actual role (that isn't speccing Sentinel and being OP in PvP), would probably require the total removal of the ability to toss mobs off cliffs, and a general nerfing of sizable proportions on all trash and add HP, and slow down the speed the adds spam AoEs.
OR.
There could be drastically less trash and adds, but they have the HP of the big adds we see today, and you need to single target them to get them down properly, and GWFs (and CWs) start dealing single target damage like TRs and lose the focus on AoE.
Either way, something needs to be done.
I don't know about that, even with the cap of 5 targets, a GWF with WMS, unstoppable and slam all working at the same time + Destroyer, and Steel Blitz as passives, can take out mobs pretty quick, especially trash mobs, throw in the occasional Restoring strike and IBS for damage on the tougher ones and you're all set.
If they make it so trash mobs can't be knocked off ledges and leave them with their HP and dmg in tact. Players will never run dungeons when it is not DD. Who wants to spend 2 hours in a dungeon to have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a drop that is useful. In fact the ratio is actually less than that because you can still get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot drops. But another problem is that even in dungeons like spellplague where the group is tossing mobs off the edges players complain that it's taking too long. So just imagine if the block up the edges but don't adjust any of the HP on them. Two hours to run spellplague, no one would do it.
If they prevent knocking mobs off then they HAVE to reduce their HP dramatically. If not, the game will quickly die.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So when you see people asking for EXPERIENCED CW for last boss in CN it must be overexxaggerating, not a real need.
Roll a cw, then go to CN and play solo, with an experienced cw and a bad one.
- Solo requires not only experience but gimmick gear (you know they changed aggro? guess who takes it now that AS is nerfed)
- Playing together with a bad cw is probably worse than solo, you screw up singularity timing and spread mobs around due to mistiming shield/repel
- Playing together with a good cw (supposing you are not the bad one:) gives you hints on where and when to use singularity and when and WHERE you should position to use your skills.
Are you a butthurt gf/gwf who isn't invited to CN cause you can't throw adds? I am sorry for you, I don't think this should happen. But that doesn't mean it's as forgiving as you think it is. Generally you screw up once and your party has to wipe. So if you thikn it's not a problem in therms of difficulty, is very annoying being the only responsible for a wipe.
Yeah, experienced means you know how to cliff drop. That's really all it means. It doesn't mean you are good or skilled.
You're right I do have a level 60 GF geared out. I also have a level 60 CW geared out....I hate playing them both. I'm just not the run of the mill street scum that plays this game.
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al3xdentonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
Yeah, experienced means you know how to cliff drop. That's really all it means. It doesn't mean you are good or skilled.
You're right I do have a level 60 GF geared out. I also have a level 60 CW geared out....I hate playing them both. I'm just not the run of the mill street scum that plays this game.
I have read all your answers warflux, and obviously once you have decided that pushing off mobs is easy and is a win button you are not even able to just read and just take into consideration what experienced CWs have to say about the Dracolich fight.
If you had played your CW in CN, which I highly doubt you have done since the balance patch, you would not say it is easy.
I would like to see you having to sing correctly, while dodging 2 fireballs AOE, Draco's hands, and possibly some wights AOE, cause obviously you know that CWs now take all aggro from the trash mobs, while your cleric astral shield just vanished and it is on cooldown, and then, not to miss your timing on the push.
These situations happen more that you may think, and once again, I am not saying this is insanely hard, but on the other hand it is not easy.
I am talking about the reality of the fight, and not what false perception you have of it. Every CW that fights Draco regulary experienced these situations and it is in those cases that you see who is experienced and who is not. I could also talk about coordination problems between CWs like double sings or problems like repealing correctly a red wizard stuck next to the boss.
If you would take this into consideration you would never talk of Dracolich like a "win button fight", and one more time I highly doubt that you have been fighting Draco that much with your CW or you would know about what I am talking.
If you had played your CW in CN, which I highly doubt you have done since the balance patch, you would not say it is easy.
I would like to see you having to sing correctly, while dodging 2 fireballs AOE, Draco's hands, and possibly some wights AOE, cause obviously you know that CWs now take all aggro from the trash mobs, while your cleric astral shield just vanished and it is on cooldown, and then, not to miss your timing on the push.
Once you get the pattern (mob + ability combo) down & figure out which mobs you can safely face tank, it's pretty easy.
(.-.)
& even the tracking hands leave plenty of time to teleport out of the way
If they make it so trash mobs can't be knocked off ledges and leave them with their HP and dmg in tact. Players will never run dungeons when it is not DD. Who wants to spend 2 hours in a dungeon to have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a drop that is useful. In fact the ratio is actually less than that because you can still get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot drops. But another problem is that even in dungeons like spellplague where the group is tossing mobs off the edges players complain that it's taking too long. So just imagine if the block up the edges but don't adjust any of the HP on them. Two hours to run spellplague, no one would do it.
If they prevent knocking mobs off then they HAVE to reduce their HP dramatically. If not, the game will quickly die.
QFT, I'm ok with stopping adds kicking off the cliffs, IF they reduce their HP (easier to kill) or strength in numbers (less to kill)!
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al3xdentonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
Once you get the pattern (mob + ability combo) down & figure out which mobs you can safely face tank, it's pretty easy.
(.-.)
& even the tracking hands leave plenty of time to teleport out of the way
Once you get the pattern, true.
But from the OP perspective, just clicking on "win button" is enough, you do not need any knowledge of the fight or timing precision.
Like I said, it is what makes experienced CWs and non-experienced ones. Anyways there are still situations (for instance when it is time to bump shield or repel and suddently you have to dodge hands or die, do not tell me this never happens) which are not easy to handle.
Once you get the pattern, true.
But from the OP perspective, just clicking on "win button" is enough, you do not need any knowledge of the fight or timing precision.
Like I said, it is what makes experienced CWs and non-experienced ones. Anyways there are still situations (for instance when it is time to bump shield or repel and suddently you have to dodge hands or die, do not tell me this never happens) which are not easy to handle.
Yop, you just know you wont make the bump, but you are so close and you so much want to. But if you would go for it you would be screwed. Each CW needs to fight this little person inside saying go for it!
Well dracolich isn't the hardest thing in the world guys, but it's probably the hardest thing IN THIS GAME. I'm not here to say how terribly hard it is, but honestly if you speak from the perspective of somebody who did like 15 runs there, well that's an overkill. Consider doing it the first 3-4 times when you actually don't know perfectly the strat and consider also that playing from EU is about 200ms, and this also excluding the fact that sometimes singularity bugs and mobs gets untargetable.
So what is the real problem then? Have no idea what you are talking about, honestly. The dungeons are poorly designed and have tons of trash mobs. The way people get around it by cliff dropping only makes it worse imo. Either get rid of it or completely redesign it? I don't know any better solution but if you do then feel free to say.
Well TBH if you think the combat mechanics are boring, why are you still playing the game? What you call trash is fun to kill if you like them! If you don't like the game but enjoy the rewards, then there's a major issue with how you spend your time. If you don't like it and have a choice, don't do it. If you can't pay attention to something more than 5 minutes like many people nowadays, then you shouldn't play dungeons at all. But if you can concentrate for 40 mins to 1h on something specific then it's really a lot of fun.
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warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well TBH if you think the combat mechanics are boring, why are you still playing the game? What you call trash is fun to kill if you like them! If you don't like the game but enjoy the rewards, then there's a major issue with how you spend your time. If you don't like it and have a choice, don't do it. If you can't pay attention to something more than 5 minutes like many people nowadays, then you shouldn't play dungeons at all. But if you can concentrate for 40 mins to 1h on something specific then it's really a lot of fun.
So you're saying there is no merit in suggesting a change to the way it works if I don't like it?
I could use the same stupid argument on your post. If you don't like my post then don't respond to it. I could argue you are wasting your time with your post.
People should be able to voice their concerns. I enjoy playing enough to not quit yet but that is my decision, not yours. Please go find someone else to dictate to.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
If they are blown nowhere near the edge but past it they should not have a roll to land where they simply are not. Sunburst is my main defense in PvP and you want to make those not already immune to it less effected. I'd have to say go to hell on that notion, clerics have already been nerfed to the ground in PvP. In d&d 4e the direction in which everything is blown isn't individually calcuted, in this game it is and there is your chance.
Cliff-Tossing is an interesting mechanic that requires positioning and timing. It's not just press a button and win as many think it is. I don't see the big problem in "requiring" a cw, nobody whines about requiring a dc, also it isn't true that a cw is required, GFs can do the same job most of the time.
I don't know why so many people think that trash mobs MUST be slaugthered at all costs or it's a cheat. I really don't like this way of thinking, it's like saying that you have to kill a boss in 5 minutes, so when you gear up you must slow your dps or you are cheating.
Every dungeons should be designed with skippable packs of mobs and required ones. If all adds were to be killed I don't think you could get by in any T2 with a full group of 12k gs geared people in less than 2 hours during a farm run.
Punting is a legitimate strat, it's not a cheat. There are mobs immune to positional displacement for a reason, there are invisible walls (which I hate since if you can't toss, there should be a visible obstacle) and you trade a fast kill for no loot.
Trash mobs has and always will be a time sink, the problem here vs tabletop D&D is that once you know the shortcut, everyone does that because you reapeatedly do the same content over and over. That's why I really hope they expand the foundry to create new dungeons and encounter design.
On a sidenote I'm amused that some people think you can replicate exactly a pen&paper game in an action MMO.
First of all D&D is based on luck of the draw (not that is totally random, but the random factor of a roll has a very high weight in the success), this is a high skill-cap game.
Second it isn't realtime, you don't need split-second reactions, you can "pause" it whenever you want.
Third you play with RL friends and your dm can alter the rules to accomodate the game.
Fourth you don't farm the same place, you generally have unique experiences every time and there are no bugs you can exploit.
EDIT: I think adding weight to mobs would introduce some nice and interesting additional factors for tossing. It doesn't make much sense that I can throw the same distance a mob which is twice as tall as me and a mob which is 1/3rd of me.
This.
As a CW I am just tired of hearing people complaining, people who do not even have a clue about how the cw's mechanics work.
Especially since last patch and DC nerfs, a CW has to move, dodge, generate tons of AP, place singularity correctly and can't afford to miss the timing of the push. I am not saying this is insanely hard, but at least it is far from being a no-brainer-win-button-gameplay.
So I feel sad for the OP that it does not feel the dungeons like CN to be epic, but for CWs it is. I can share his disapointment in dungeons where CWs are completely useless, like Frozen Heart.
There is a problem and it is not the tossing mechanics, but the million adds spawning over and over again. And one last thing : pushing trash in the void is just so much fun, I would regret that the devs take that fun away.
I am talking about how it works in D&D 4e, I couldn't care less about what you QQ about clerics in PvP.
Also, I am talking about different things:
It is not about where the mob is going to land, the thing is that in d&d4e, the mobs can only be pushed away, but never upwards; so if the mob is pushed next to the edge of a cliff (bottomless or not), they have a save roll to grab themselves to the edge before than falling; if they fail the roll they will fall and will suffer of falling damage, given the distance to the bottom, they will either die or not; then if they stay alive, they can climb, jump, find the way around, whatever.
In NW, there is not a save roll to prevent you from falling of the cliffs, there is only a chance to fall into a safe ground without dying and the mobs have that weird ability to jump long distances (talking about trash mobs).
I am not against this mechanic, I think its great, but what I also think is that the mobs/players should have a chance to grab themselves to the ground before than falling 1 inch of the cliff; if that's too hard to do, then a chance to reduce the pushback distance; otherwise a chance to resist the pushback.
"The harder the game, the better."
Because while leveling for the first time ever in this game I got pushed and instantly killed by one of those rat-like things in the jungley map where you have to fix bridges, and yeah it was a cliff.
So then i took revenge and when i got back i casted a divine sunburst. I enjoyed it. I loved it. Since then i have pushed everyhing i could from cliffs/ledges/whatever .
I want this class in NW.
Wow, you have to move around.....So hard.
It is just press a button and win. You just do the same thing over and over again and it makes killing the boss in CN so easy a wow kid could do it with his eyes closed.
I realize without doing this it is IMPOSSIBLE to even beat the boss but I'd rather have it unbeatable than be the easiest thing in the game to do. So they need to fix the boss fights, I get it. However, what you are saying is just not true. It is a no brainer and you know it.
You are not playing CW do you? IT IS NOT EASY...
Exactly as the guy said, it's not a nightmare difficulty but it's far far away from being easy. And exactly as he pointed out , especially after nerfs..
Have you actually ever finished CN after patch? I can tell you that you need two CW's and both needs to hell know what to do.
Cryptic created two classes.
One that specializes in knocking mobs off cliffs (CW)
One that specializes in doing damage to large amounts of grouped up enemies (GWF)
And no one thought that these classes mechanics would clash? BWAHAHAAHA.
This forum gets better every time I pop in to see how NW is doing lol. You know it's bad when 90% of threads are fix this, fix that, omg this is broken, I'm quitting, etc.
And whats better, is people actually defend some of the broken mechanics. Like a tabletop D&D game tailor made for you and 4 of your friends holds the same merit when applied to thousands of online players.
So when you see people asking for EXPERIENCED CW for last boss in CN it must be overexxaggerating, not a real need.
Roll a cw, then go to CN and play solo, with an experienced cw and a bad one.
- Solo requires not only experience but gimmick gear (you know they changed aggro? guess who takes it now that AS is nerfed)
- Playing together with a bad cw is probably worse than solo, you screw up singularity timing and spread mobs around due to mistiming shield/repel
- Playing together with a good cw (supposing you are not the bad one:) gives you hints on where and when to use singularity and when and WHERE you should position to use your skills.
Are you a butthurt gf/gwf who isn't invited to CN cause you can't throw adds? I am sorry for you, I don't think this should happen. But that doesn't mean it's as forgiving as you think it is. Generally you screw up once and your party has to wipe. So if you thikn it's not a problem in therms of difficulty, is very annoying being the only responsible for a wipe.
I don't really see the point. You just play differently depending on where you are and what is your group comp. The problem is when killing enemies is far worse than pushing them. For CN you want to throw wiz and wights on the balcony BECAUSE THEY CAN'T RESPAWN. If they didn't respawn, killing them would be an option.
And fyi, CWs has few spells which helps grouping up mobs and not everyone runs around with ice storm and shiled pop to spread them around.
It's not about the class, it's about the player's decisions.
That no one uses in most dungeons because why dps what you can just knock off a cliff? If you give players multiple ways to do something, they will always chose the easiest way. A group COULD run CN with 3 GWF, 1 DC, 1 Rouge, but it'll never happen because it's too difficult. It's bad game design all around. Bad mob design, bad level design, bad battle design, just bad.
Why do you think this game is flopping so badly? Cryptic has no clue how to balance a thing, they just attempt to fix anything the players cry about and this may come as a surprise, but the players don't have a clue about balance either. Every person will simply cry about any weakness their class has which creates a cycle of everyone wanting their class to be the best. Listening to the public too much leads to a hot mess. For example in this thread:
CW will always say that ledge killing is not op, because they are desired for it.
GWF will always say ledge killing is broken and needs to be removed, because it eliminates the main job of a GWF.
CW also has moves to pull mobs together, working nicely with GWF, but knocking mobs off ledges is easier so most don't do it.
Now the trick is to ask yourself, what would be better for the game. Not for you, but the game. The problem is that players rarely do that. Players just want their class to be the best or whatever makes raids go the fastest and to hell with everything else.
Now this happens in just about every MMO. The trick is to do whats best for the game, not necessarily the player. Now Cryptic needs to do whats best for the game, but they won't. They want subs, not a good game, so they'll appeal to which ever side cries the loudest in order to keep the most subs. (game is too far underwater to hope for new subs)
It's never really about player decisions in situations like this. Give a person 2 options, and they will always chose the quickest most efficient option, it's just human nature. The only way to change is to take away or fix one of the options.
P.S.: You OP are exactly what my sig describes.
EDIT: @nekoakurei not all mobs can be pushed and why would you waste half an hour to clear trash during a delve when you can run a second one?
Serious now, i hope cryptic is going to to get rid of all the imbalances that are attracting certain "types" of people.
Nothing more to add.
Which sounds fine in theory, but in practice it takes GWFs forever to AoE down anything but the weakest adds, assuming they can even get them grouped up close enough to hit them with their cleaves that cap at 5 targets, because they have to stop damage over and over to move out of the spammed AoE attacks that everything with more than 6 hit points seems to possess. That time spent moving out of the red circles of 10 mobs, moving around to a clear side (or in some cases simply having to wait till you can go back in) is time not spent on killing them, meaning those mobs put down even MORE red circles, which slows down the damage on them even more, and the vicious circle makes the whole experience unfun for you AND the group. I play a GWF and there are times I wish the CWs in these pugs WOULD toss a bunch of the adds off a cliff because they absolutely suck to kill. My own damage be damned, having to kill everything takes WAY too long.
CWs don't have that problem, even ignoring the cliff tossing, because they don't have to get back into melee range to deal their damage, they simply move to ANY clear spot and start damage again. Given this game's sick fetish for enemies that spam melee range AoE knockbacks, and AoEs in general, the CW's ability to operate from range, BY ITSELF, makes them a better class to bring, even if they technically deal less AoE damage than GWFs, for the sole reason that they can apply it more consistently.
To fix all this cliff tossing, and to give the GWF an actual role (that isn't speccing Sentinel and being OP in PvP), would probably require the total removal of the ability to toss mobs off cliffs, and a general nerfing of sizable proportions on all trash and add HP, and slow down the speed the adds spam AoEs.
OR.
There could be drastically less trash and adds, but they have the HP of the big adds we see today, and you need to single target them to get them down properly, and GWFs (and CWs) start dealing single target damage like TRs and lose the focus on AoE.
Either way, something needs to be done.
I don't know about that, even with the cap of 5 targets, a GWF with WMS, unstoppable and slam all working at the same time + Destroyer, and Steel Blitz as passives, can take out mobs pretty quick, especially trash mobs, throw in the occasional Restoring strike and IBS for damage on the tougher ones and you're all set.
If they make it so trash mobs can't be knocked off ledges and leave them with their HP and dmg in tact. Players will never run dungeons when it is not DD. Who wants to spend 2 hours in a dungeon to have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a drop that is useful. In fact the ratio is actually less than that because you can still get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot drops. But another problem is that even in dungeons like spellplague where the group is tossing mobs off the edges players complain that it's taking too long. So just imagine if the block up the edges but don't adjust any of the HP on them. Two hours to run spellplague, no one would do it.
If they prevent knocking mobs off then they HAVE to reduce their HP dramatically. If not, the game will quickly die.
Yeah, experienced means you know how to cliff drop. That's really all it means. It doesn't mean you are good or skilled.
You're right I do have a level 60 GF geared out. I also have a level 60 CW geared out....I hate playing them both. I'm just not the run of the mill street scum that plays this game.
I have read all your answers warflux, and obviously once you have decided that pushing off mobs is easy and is a win button you are not even able to just read and just take into consideration what experienced CWs have to say about the Dracolich fight.
If you had played your CW in CN, which I highly doubt you have done since the balance patch, you would not say it is easy.
I would like to see you having to sing correctly, while dodging 2 fireballs AOE, Draco's hands, and possibly some wights AOE, cause obviously you know that CWs now take all aggro from the trash mobs, while your cleric astral shield just vanished and it is on cooldown, and then, not to miss your timing on the push.
These situations happen more that you may think, and once again, I am not saying this is insanely hard, but on the other hand it is not easy.
I am talking about the reality of the fight, and not what false perception you have of it. Every CW that fights Draco regulary experienced these situations and it is in those cases that you see who is experienced and who is not. I could also talk about coordination problems between CWs like double sings or problems like repealing correctly a red wizard stuck next to the boss.
If you would take this into consideration you would never talk of Dracolich like a "win button fight", and one more time I highly doubt that you have been fighting Draco that much with your CW or you would know about what I am talking.
Once you get the pattern (mob + ability combo) down & figure out which mobs you can safely face tank, it's pretty easy.
(.-.)
& even the tracking hands leave plenty of time to teleport out of the way
QFT, I'm ok with stopping adds kicking off the cliffs, IF they reduce their HP (easier to kill) or strength in numbers (less to kill)!
Once you get the pattern, true.
But from the OP perspective, just clicking on "win button" is enough, you do not need any knowledge of the fight or timing precision.
Like I said, it is what makes experienced CWs and non-experienced ones. Anyways there are still situations (for instance when it is time to bump shield or repel and suddently you have to dodge hands or die, do not tell me this never happens) which are not easy to handle.
Yop, you just know you wont make the bump, but you are so close and you so much want to. But if you would go for it you would be screwed. Each CW needs to fight this little person inside saying go for it!
Well TBH if you think the combat mechanics are boring, why are you still playing the game? What you call trash is fun to kill if you like them! If you don't like the game but enjoy the rewards, then there's a major issue with how you spend your time. If you don't like it and have a choice, don't do it. If you can't pay attention to something more than 5 minutes like many people nowadays, then you shouldn't play dungeons at all. But if you can concentrate for 40 mins to 1h on something specific then it's really a lot of fun.
So you're saying there is no merit in suggesting a change to the way it works if I don't like it?
I could use the same stupid argument on your post. If you don't like my post then don't respond to it. I could argue you are wasting your time with your post.
People should be able to voice their concerns. I enjoy playing enough to not quit yet but that is my decision, not yours. Please go find someone else to dictate to.