You keep attacking me personally, but yet won't refute my ideas. That is a sign you have nothing to refute it with, so you are just trying to insult me until I agree with you. That doesn't work very well. In truth I don't think GWFs are that OP, I know if one gets a hold of my CW I am probably dead, but not all the time. The key is to move stay away from him and do damage on the run. And I never said TRs were OP, I said the ability to be able to do damage without impunity was OP. It might not be a massive amount of damage but it does add up in the end.
Oh man, who insulted who first buddy?
guess you aren't smart enough to come up with your own replies.
I hate when people do that. That passive-aggressive HAMSTER doesn't fly with me and when someone calls them out on it, they use the "why are you attacking me personally" line.
No point of replying to any of your posts if you're just going to act like you didn't instigate it.
I hate when people do that. That passive-aggressive HAMSTER doesn't fly with me and when someone calls them out on it, they use the "why are you attacking me personally" line.
No point of replying to any of your posts if you're just going to act like you didn't instigate it.
You didn't call me out on it. You insulted me back, but my point about you ignoring the ideas I have posted in this thread stands. I never once said I didn't insult you, but your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I insulted you for posting a stupid comment where you changed the quote of what I said. You have no respect for others therefore why should I have any respect for you? Also, I never asked why you were attacking me personally, I gave the reason you were, but then again goes to your reading comprehension level again.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lol, says the man who cries about perma-stealth rogues and yet doesn't realize the most OP class in pvp right now is the sentinel GWF.
Popular vote currently rates GWF at 3rd in most overpowered class.. I'd have to agree with the first and second.. third and fourth is a close race between gwf/cw imo.. Definitely situational.. Why is this discussion even continuing to take place.. the perma stealth build will be nerfed one way or another on the basis of what it can effectively do in pve alone..
You didn't call me out on it. You insulted me back, but my point about you ignoring the ideas I have posted in this thread stands. I never once said I didn't insult you, but your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I insulted you for posting a stupid comment where you changed the quote of what I said. You have no respect for others therefore why should I have any respect for you? Also, I never asked why you were attacking me personally, I gave the reason you were, but then again goes to your reading comprehension level again.
My reading comprehension is fine, I just can't believe a grown man got his feelings hurt because I changed what you post. And why should I have respect for you? Who are you, an anonymous person on the internet that doesn't pay my bills?
A true perma-stealth build who specced into INT doesn't do that much damage. They waste two encounters slots for B&S and shadow strike and their CoS damage is nothing compared to a burst TR.
Stealth doesn't need to be reworked, you're complaining about the wrong thing. It's the powerful enchants that give CoS spam it's deadly burst.
A person geared with Greater/Perfect Vorpal and Greater tenebrous is going to hit you hard regardless if they're in stealth or not.
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honoraryorangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Holy moly, the amount of mindless, idiotic TR players in this thread is amazing.
You really believe you should be able to perma stealth while attacking other plays? That kind of thinking seriously requires some sort of brain damage...
My reading comprehension is fine, I just can't believe a grown man got his feelings hurt because I changed what you post. And why should I have respect for you? Who are you, an anonymous person on the internet that doesn't pay my bills?
It is thinking like that is why the world is such a crappy place today. Go back no more than 40-50 years and people had respect for each other. You didn't disrespect a stranger just because you didn't know them. You will not go far in life with the attitude you have. To get respect you must give respect, you disrespected me first and I returned it in kind.
As to you're other post you still aren't understanding what I am saying. I have not been saying the amount of damage caused is the problem but the fact any damage caused for a sustained period of time that you can't respond to is an unfair advantage to have. The fact a perma-stealth rogue can sit in stealth and stay just out of visual range and cause damage without impunity is what makes the build OP.
It is thinking like that is why the world is such a crappy place today. Go back no more than 40-50 years and people had respect for each other. You didn't disrespect a stranger just because you didn't know them. You will not go far in life with the attitude you have. To get respect you must give respect, you disrespected me first and I returned it in kind.
As to you're other post you still aren't understanding what I am saying. I have not been saying the amount of damage caused is the problem but the fact any damage caused for a sustained period of time that you can't respond to is an unfair advantage to have. The fact a perma-stealth rogue can sit in stealth and stay just out of visual range and cause damage without impunity is what makes the build OP.
This is the world we live in. I will not go far in life you say? Most people that I know in my line of work didn't rise to the top fast because they were nice and respectful. More like manipulative and opportunistic. Like how most CEOs are manipulative psychopaths that climb the corporate ladder and have golden parachutes waiting for them if they get fired? Right?
As for your argument about not responding, what class do you play? The sustained damage only stacks if you don't dodge or blink to break up the CoS stacks. If you stand there and do nothing, yes, you will be taken down from 100-0 in no time.
This is the world we live in. I will not go far in life you say? Most people that I know in my line of work didn't rise to the top fast because they were nice and respectful. More like manipulative and opportunistic. Like how most CEOs are manipulative psychopaths that climb the corporate ladder and have golden parachutes waiting for them if they get fired? Right?
As for your argument about not responding, what class do you play? The sustained damage only stacks if you don't dodge or blink to break up the CoS stacks. If you stand there and do nothing, yes, you will be taken down from 100-0 in no time.
Again you miss the point. You say your reading comprehension is fine but I have spelled it out for you several times. You keep coming back to the amount of damage which I have said several times is not the part I find OP. As for CEOs were respectful to all sorts of people when they were climbing the ladder. You never know who someone might know when you disrespect them in the corporate world. That teenage you cuss out outside your building might end up being the CEO's son/daughter.
I have to wonder what class I play has to do with anything? if you must know I have one of each class expect DC. I only have one at 60 but I will let you figure out which one that is on your own.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Y'all don't know how to PVP. I deal with Stealth rogues all the time it's they're very easy to kill with my GWF and GF. Run to a point. Find the shimmer, KD/stun-lock rotation. Rogues are so amazingly squishy and they fall fast. With my CW, I telly to my melee party members. I don't have a cleric so I can't tell you (heal yourself, drop an A. Shield, pray and fast?).
Simple stuff, people. Unless they're decked out with Soulforge/Vorpal/Tenebrous, they aren't a problem. By the way, ANY class with Soulforge/Vorpal/Tenebrous is a problem.
Ive seen a few of these videos now and a few of these builds.
I wonder, am I the only one in this game who can see stealthed players when they get close?
I have people in my guild telling me you cant, but i often get attacked if I venture to close to anyone in stealth, and i can spot rogues aswell as they pass by me, and engage them.
When watching these videos, they are going into groups of people without taking a hit.......
Again you miss the point. You say your reading comprehension is fine but I have spelled it out for you several times. You keep coming back to the amount of damage which I have said several times is not the part I find OP. As for CEOs were respectful to all sorts of people when they were climbing the ladder. You never know who someone might know when you disrespect them in the corporate world. That teenage you cuss out outside your building might end up being the CEO's son/daughter.
I have to wonder what class I play has to do with anything? if you must know I have one of each class expect DC. I only have one at 60 but I will let you figure out which one that is on your own.
A perma-stealth rogue can't just sit in stealth like it's no tomorrow. Any AoE will knock them out of stealth real fast. Yea, I can sit in stealth and stay out of visual range and cause damage without impunity because you know why? I'm squishy as hell without stealth or ITC being up. Once my stealth is up and I get focused, I'm done.
You're complaining about a TR who specced for a 1v1 build but pvp is a team game. I haven't met any perma-stealth TR that can take on 3 people at once. I have met plenty of GWFs that can though. If you don't like dying to a perma-stealth rogue, then get better gear or get better at pvp because seriously, I can't remember the last time I died to a perma-stealth TR.
Ive seen a few of these videos now and a few of these builds.
I wonder, am I the only one in this game who can see stealthed players when they get close?
I have people in my guild telling me you cant, but i often get attacked if I venture to close to anyone in stealth, and i can spot rogues aswell as they pass by me, and engage them.
When watching these videos, they are going into groups of people without taking a hit.......
I dont get it
I see their vorpal and plague fire enchants all the time. Then again, people see my vorpal enchant as well.
Ive seen a few of these videos now and a few of these builds.
I wonder, am I the only one in this game who can see stealthed players when they get close?
I have people in my guild telling me you cant, but i often get attacked if I venture to close to anyone in stealth, and i can spot rogues aswell as they pass by me, and engage them.
When watching these videos, they are going into groups of people without taking a hit.......
I dont get it
I can see them too if they get close, but my thing is the smart ones just sit back using cloud of blades to soften you up. The range at which you can see them depends a lot too on their stats.
You're not thinking rationally. Regardless of how you feel, that's the way the class was designed for this game, and they can't change it without drastically re-working the feat tree. This is an amount of work that is simply unreasonable to expect at this time. You want rogues to only have one ability to use from within stealth before it drops? Fine, but all those feats around gaining combat advantage, attacking from within stealth, etc. would have to replaced with ones that simply increase damage outside of stealth. The rogue is supposed to be the single target DPS class, used to burn down the HP of high priority targets in PvE dungeons; and if you take away stealth, he still needs to do the same amount of overall damage on single targets. That means rogues would become even easier to play and even more "game-breaking" in PvP/PvE. They'd have incredible damage without having to use stealth, and wouldn't need to worry whether they had combat advantage or not.
It's just unfeasible.
zomg pink text makes it so much more dramatic i think imma start doing this too
Holy moly, the amount of mindless, idiotic TR players in this thread is amazing.
You really believe you should be able to perma stealth while attacking other plays? That kind of thinking seriously requires some sort of brain damage...
you also forgot all the mindless idiotic CWs, GFs and GWFs
Ive seen a few of these videos now and a few of these builds.
I wonder, am I the only one in this game who can see stealthed players when they get close?
I have people in my guild telling me you cant, but i often get attacked if I venture to close to anyone in stealth, and i can spot rogues aswell as they pass by me, and engage them.
When watching these videos, they are going into groups of people without taking a hit.......
I dont get it
A lot of complainers that think perma-stealth is unreasonable don't get it either. It's exactly as you say, when you're close enough to a stealthed TR you will see him, if you do AoE damage or just got lucky swinging your sword, you will see him. If the TR attacks (granted, not so much with CoS) you will see him.
It's really baffling to see how some people just want to stick with that 'perma-stealth UBER!!' jig while they should know that perma-stealth is in no way what they are describing.
Ah well, some people just enjoy deliberate ignorance I guess, makes them better whiners.
Why would the feats for combat advantage need to be reworked? You can have combat advantage out of stealth as long as someone is on the other side of the target or certain abilities are used. Why not change some of the stealth talents to also provide the bonus when you have combat advantage? Don't look now I just solved the problems you said were unfeasible to solve. That wouldn't make them game breaking in any way because than they would have to coordinate their attacks with someone else which is what a rogue is suppose to do. They are meant to be the ones that stab in the back as the fighter beats you in the face. Stop acting like stealth is the only thing a TR can do. I have played my girlfriend's TR from time to time and I never had to have stealth to kill things it just helped to get the first hit and to fight battle on my terms.
You've fixed nothing. All you've done is change the rogue's role in the game. The thing you need to realize is that rogue are currently strikers; and the only single target melee DPS in the game. It's fine that you have an idea of what rogues should do in this game, but that's not how the developers designed them. They made us an in-your-face striker class, who pretty much has combat advantage throughout the duration of a fight, even if its one on one. So not only do you want to change the way of feats work, but you want to change our entire playstyle, and you call this feasible? Your image of what a rogue should be has no bearing on what we actually are in this game. Honestly, when I picked the class I had the same idea as you. I thought we'd be sneaky little weaklings, but I've realized that we are really more swashbuckling duellist's, than cowardly thieves. Our class armor sets even reflect this point. We are basically designed as fighters who use dirty tricks and flashy moves to overcome better armored opponents, but we are still frontline fighters. You may not like that, and it's fine, but in order to change our role completely in the game to opportunistic weaklings; you would have to do a lot more than "change a few stealth feats to CA bonuses". You're oversimplifying the issue by a wide margin.
If you really played on your "girlfriend's" rogue account, then you would know how difficult it is to "coordinate attacks" and "take advantage of positions" in PvP fights. Everyone is constantly jumping around and there's so many bright flashing attacks, stuns, and CC; that's it's nearly impossible to do what you're suggesting. Stealth is our way of keeping CA even amongst all this chaos.
Oh, and I'm not acting like stealth is all we can do. I sometimes don't even use it. But to use you rogue at it's most effective, against a player who knows how to play their GF, GWF, or CW expertly, then you will certainly need as much help as you can get. Stealth is the great equalizer, and that's why it's our tab button. Here's a small question, if you did make stealth have a ridiculous cooldown so that we are hardly ever in it, what then should our tab button do?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
And all the TRs that are abusing this will tell you that won't work. It would nerf them to much. lol
Well, Dailies are supposed to be incredibly powerful. All B&S does is refill stealth. That's not going to win you any fights. If you look at the other rogue dailies, they are a game-changer. They make it so that a fight that you are losing, is suddenly going in your favor or even over. At the very least, B&S would have to have some devastating impact on a opponent who hits the dummy. A severe damage penalty or an extremely long daze. Something.
And we would still have abilities like Shadow Strike and Gloaming Cut to refill stealth instantly. So what would this fix?
Don't get me wrong, I would totally prefer your idea. Having Lashing Blade + SE are encounter abilities would truly make us overpowered. We would be unstoppable.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
The stealthy rogue is but one archetype in a myriad of types of rogues.
Indeed friend. The rogue in this game is clearly based more on a powerful melee striker, than a cowardly sneaker. Look at the CG trailer. That rogue wasn't hiding. She wasn't making sure she was in the shadows or only attacking preoccupied enemies. She was fighting hordes of enemies alone, face-to-face, and even took on a big heavily-armored bruiser. People don't like the rogue being the premier fighter class. They see their GWF with the huge hulking sword and bulky armor and wonder why they are off-tank defenders. It's just silly.
We are not sneaky cowards in this game. We are more swashbuckling duellists. Roguish bladesmen, who excel on the battlefield. We use unscrupulous tactics and dirty tricks, to overcome heavily-armored enemies. We are essentially Bronn from Game of Thrones.
Holy moly, the amount of mindless, idiotic TR players in this thread is amazing.
You really believe you should be able to perma stealth while attacking other plays? That kind of thinking seriously requires some sort of brain damage...
Not necessarily? I just don't want the entire stealth mechanic nerfed into oblivion just because of some "exploitable" build I don't even use. Most of the suggestions in this thread don't simply make perma-stealth impossible. They make the stealth mechanic itself practically useless. You are fully capable of making a balanced Saboteur rogue who relies on stealth, but can't use it permanently, and sacrifices damage for it. Yet, they would be completely useless if these suggestions were used.
And I frankly don't trust PWI to properly balance classes in this game without utterly breaking something.
You've fixed nothing. All you've done is change the rogue's role in the game. The thing you need to realize is that rogue are currently strikers; and the only single target melee DPS in the game. It's fine that you have an idea of what rogues should do in this game, but that's not how the developers designed them. They made us an in-your-face striker class, who pretty much has combat advantage throughout the duration of a fight, even if its one on one. So not only do you want to change the way of feats work, but you want to change our entire playstyle, and you call this feasible? Your image of what a rogue should be has no bearing on what we actually are in this game. Honestly, when I picked the class I had the same idea as you. I thought we'd be sneaky little weaklings, but I've realized that we are really more swashbuckling duellist's, than cowardly thieves. Our class armor sets even reflect this point. We are basically designed as fighters who use dirty tricks and flashy moves to overcome better armored opponents, but we are still frontline fighters. You may not like that, and it's fine, but in order to change our role completely in the game to opportunistic weaklings; you would have to do a lot more than "change a few stealth feats to CA bonuses". You're oversimplifying the issue by a wide margin.
If you really played on your "girlfriend's" rogue account, then you would know how difficult it is to "coordinate attacks" and "take advantage of positions" in PvP fights. Everyone is constantly jumping around and there's so many bright flashing attacks, stuns, and CC; that's it's nearly impossible to do what you're suggesting. Stealth is our way of keeping CA even amongst all this chaos.
Oh, and I'm not acting like stealth is all we can do. I sometimes don't even use it. But to use you rogue at it's most effective, against a player who knows how to play their GF, GWF, or CW expertly, then you will certainly need as much help as you can get. Stealth is the great equalizer, and that's why it's our tab button. Here's a small question, if you did make stealth have a ridiculous cooldown so that we are hardly ever in it, what then should our tab button do?
The Rogues I worry about in PvP are not the Perma-stealth ones it is the ones that use stealth like it should be. They use it to start the fight on their terms and as an escape mechanic to reset a fight for them. The perma-stealth BS is just annoying and if you guys are so determined to have it then I say give all PvE Bosses the ability to see through stealth, and make it to where you can not capture a control point when in stealth, not even sure why you can here but not in STO. If they do that I will just keep moving away from the idiot CoB perma-stealth rogue that is too unskilled to do anything else.
problem is a lot of people think stealth builds are anywhere remotely close to executioner dps. my executioner rogue can kill most opponents wheater they see me or not, a perma stealth rogue running out of stealth is just a sitting duck.
the only thing that makes stealth builds OP is tenebrous but then again tenebrous makes anything OP. i tried the perma stealth build whitout tene (i'm poor) and it sucks compared to my regular pve with a bit of pvp care build.
if there is one thing i, as a rogue, consider OP about my character is the way lurker's assault interacts with +stealth feats and encounters. right now you can setup your rogue (even an executioner one, yo ujust need to be human) so that encounters won't break stealth during lurkers meaning you can use an unlimited amount of impact shots at +60% power (no charges used up from stealth) with decent range and possibly finish off with a (likely) 1hit ko lashing blade. it's not intended for enocunters to not break stealth during lurker, that much i think is OP.
The Rogues I worry about in PvP are not the Perma-stealth ones it is the ones that use stealth like it should be. They use it to start the fight on their terms and as an escape mechanic to reset a fight for them. The perma-stealth BS is just annoying and if you guys are so determined to have it then I say give all PvE Bosses the ability to see through stealth, and make it to where you can not capture a control point when in stealth, not even sure why you can here but not in STO. If they do that I will just keep moving away from the idiot CoB perma-stealth rogue that is too unskilled to do anything else.
If you can come up with a way to get rid of perma-stealth builds without utterly breaking the stealth mechanic, then be my guest. I just can't personally think of a way to do it, and that's what worries me. We both have our worries. The rest of your suggestions are silly. Using stealth on bosses and when capping points are completely fair tactics, which fit the rogue character and are not gamebreaking. The real problem is that it's a tactic used by perma-stealth rogues, who completely use the stealth mechanic in a way it wasn't really meant to be used. I can't solo a PvE dungeon boss, but apparently they can (or at least anecdotal evidence suggests they can). We shouldn't all be punished for that. It's unfair.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
If you can come up with a way to get rid of perma-stealth builds without utterly breaking the stealth mechanic, then be my guest. I just can't personally think of a way to do it, and that's what worries me. We both have our worries. The rest of your suggestions are silly. Using stealth on bosses and when capping points are completely fair tactics, which fit the rogue character and are not gamebreaking. The real problem is that it's a tactic used by perma-stealth rogues, who completely use the stealth mechanic in a way it wasn't really meant to be used. I can't solo a PvE dungeon boss, but apparently they can (or at least anecdotal evidence suggests they can). We shouldn't all be punished for that. It's unfair.
I didn't say that a rogue wouldn't be able to use stealth while on fighting a boss, I just said the boss would have a buff that lets them see the rogue in stealth. That way you still get the bonus damage for being in stealth but a rogue can't solo a boss by using perma-stealth. The only time this would become a problem is if the tank can't hold aggro on the boss. As for being able to cap while in stealth it isn't silly to take that away if you can be perma-stealth. I mean really how are you even contesting someone's control over an area if you are hiding. That is like saying when a country sends a spy into another country they are vying for control of target country. If you are hiding you aren't trying to assert dominance over an area.
I didn't say that a rogue wouldn't be able to use stealth while on fighting a boss, I just said the boss would have a buff that lets them see the rogue in stealth. That way you still get the bonus damage for being in stealth but a rogue can't solo a boss by using perma-stealth. The only time this would become a problem is if the tank can't hold aggro on the boss. As for being able to cap while in stealth it isn't silly to take that away if you can be perma-stealth. I mean really how are you even contesting someone's control over an area if you are hiding. That is like saying when a country sends a spy into another country they are vying for control of target country. If you are hiding you aren't trying to assert dominance over an area.
As a rogue I rely on being temporarily hidden from the boss many times throughout a fight. Especially in the days when GF weren't welcome in dungeons. Your problem is with people being able to do this indefinitely, and that's what you should be worried about changing. I shouldn't be penalized for something someone else is doing. And the small amount of time my character has in stealth is essential, but not game-breaking.
Capturing points is a game mechanic. You're thinking about it too much. Contesting someone's control of an area usually involves more than just standing on a circle, and there's usually more than 10 people involved. None of it really makes sense, and it doesn't have to.
Being able to use stealth while capturing points isn't game-breaking. Perma-stealth is (supposedly). In my experience, my stealth is gone before I can fully cap an area, and that's why I only pop it when I see someone coming or I'm half-way there. Since people can see that a cap is being taken, even if you are stealthed, they can just use AoE/pushbacks and stop you even if they can't see you. It's perfectly balanced. The only thing that breaks it is once again, perma-stealth.
I don't want my character crippled because of something someone else is doing. Mess with their character, not mine.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
As a rogue I rely on being temporarily hidden from the boss many times throughout a fight. Especially in the days when GF weren't welcome in dungeons. Your problem is with people being able to do this indefinitely, and that's what you should be worried about changing. I shouldn't be penalized for something someone else is doing. And the small amount of time my character has in stealth is essential, but not game-breaking.
Capturing points is a game mechanic. You're thinking about it too much. Contesting someone's control of an area usually involves more than just standing on a circle, and there's usually more than 10 people involved. None of it really makes sense, and it doesn't have to.
Being able to use stealth while capturing points isn't game-breaking. Perma-stealth is (supposedly). In my experience, my stealth is gone before I can fully cap an area, and that's why I only pop it when I see someone coming or I'm half-way there. Since people can see that a cap is being taken, even if you are stealthed, they can just use AoE/pushbacks and stop you even if they can't see you. It's perfectly balanced. The only thing that breaks it is once again, perma-stealth.
I don't want my character crippled because of something someone else is doing. Mess with their character, not mine.
I am not trying to take stealth away or even have it nerfed. I just want to see this perma-stealth BS go away. I am fine with you using Stealth as it is intended to take capture points or fight a boss, but there are those abusing something the Devs overlooked. I like rogue classes in most games and usually end up playing them, but we both agree perma-stealth is broke.
As a rogue I rely on being temporarily hidden from the boss many times throughout a fight. Especially in the days when GF weren't welcome in dungeons. Your problem is with people being able to do this indefinitely, and that's what you should be worried about changing. I shouldn't be penalized for something someone else is doing. And the small amount of time my character has in stealth is essential, but not game-breaking.
Capturing points is a game mechanic. You're thinking about it too much. Contesting someone's control of an area usually involves more than just standing on a circle, and there's usually more than 10 people involved. None of it really makes sense, and it doesn't have to.
Being able to use stealth while capturing points isn't game-breaking. Perma-stealth is (supposedly). In my experience, my stealth is gone before I can fully cap an area, and that's why I only pop it when I see someone coming or I'm half-way there. Since people can see that a cap is being taken, even if you are stealthed, they can just use AoE/pushbacks and stop you even if they can't see you. It's perfectly balanced. The only thing that breaks it is once again, perma-stealth.
I don't want my character crippled because of something someone else is doing. Mess with their character, not mine.
You being penalised isnt the be all and end all. If a class is being used in a way to break the boundries of what is reasonable then it needs to be changed. Its simple. I can boil it down to one issue with regards to your posts over an over again.
Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me
This game is so unbalanced in pvp and pve. Now that there is 20 man pvp the devs need to react or lose players. Now again you will say okay you leave dont pick on me .......
Expect the nerfbat but dont expect it to be balanced look at what the devs did to the CW and the buffs they gave to the GF and GWF.
Just relax and look at it from another classes point of view insead of your one limited view.
Comments
Oh man, who insulted who first buddy?
I hate when people do that. That passive-aggressive HAMSTER doesn't fly with me and when someone calls them out on it, they use the "why are you attacking me personally" line.
No point of replying to any of your posts if you're just going to act like you didn't instigate it.
Popular vote currently rates GWF at 3rd in most overpowered class.. I'd have to agree with the first and second.. third and fourth is a close race between gwf/cw imo.. Definitely situational.. Why is this discussion even continuing to take place.. the perma stealth build will be nerfed one way or another on the basis of what it can effectively do in pve alone..
My reading comprehension is fine, I just can't believe a grown man got his feelings hurt because I changed what you post. And why should I have respect for you? Who are you, an anonymous person on the internet that doesn't pay my bills?
A true perma-stealth build who specced into INT doesn't do that much damage. They waste two encounters slots for B&S and shadow strike and their CoS damage is nothing compared to a burst TR.
Stealth doesn't need to be reworked, you're complaining about the wrong thing. It's the powerful enchants that give CoS spam it's deadly burst.
A person geared with Greater/Perfect Vorpal and Greater tenebrous is going to hit you hard regardless if they're in stealth or not.
You really believe you should be able to perma stealth while attacking other plays? That kind of thinking seriously requires some sort of brain damage...
As to you're other post you still aren't understanding what I am saying. I have not been saying the amount of damage caused is the problem but the fact any damage caused for a sustained period of time that you can't respond to is an unfair advantage to have. The fact a perma-stealth rogue can sit in stealth and stay just out of visual range and cause damage without impunity is what makes the build OP.
This is the world we live in. I will not go far in life you say? Most people that I know in my line of work didn't rise to the top fast because they were nice and respectful. More like manipulative and opportunistic. Like how most CEOs are manipulative psychopaths that climb the corporate ladder and have golden parachutes waiting for them if they get fired? Right?
As for your argument about not responding, what class do you play? The sustained damage only stacks if you don't dodge or blink to break up the CoS stacks. If you stand there and do nothing, yes, you will be taken down from 100-0 in no time.
I have to wonder what class I play has to do with anything? if you must know I have one of each class expect DC. I only have one at 60 but I will let you figure out which one that is on your own.
Simple stuff, people. Unless they're decked out with Soulforge/Vorpal/Tenebrous, they aren't a problem. By the way, ANY class with Soulforge/Vorpal/Tenebrous is a problem.
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I wonder, am I the only one in this game who can see stealthed players when they get close?
I have people in my guild telling me you cant, but i often get attacked if I venture to close to anyone in stealth, and i can spot rogues aswell as they pass by me, and engage them.
When watching these videos, they are going into groups of people without taking a hit.......
I dont get it
A perma-stealth rogue can't just sit in stealth like it's no tomorrow. Any AoE will knock them out of stealth real fast. Yea, I can sit in stealth and stay out of visual range and cause damage without impunity because you know why? I'm squishy as hell without stealth or ITC being up. Once my stealth is up and I get focused, I'm done.
You're complaining about a TR who specced for a 1v1 build but pvp is a team game. I haven't met any perma-stealth TR that can take on 3 people at once. I have met plenty of GWFs that can though. If you don't like dying to a perma-stealth rogue, then get better gear or get better at pvp because seriously, I can't remember the last time I died to a perma-stealth TR.
I see their vorpal and plague fire enchants all the time. Then again, people see my vorpal enchant as well.
zomg pink text makes it so much more dramatic i think imma start doing this too
Nah just you
hu?
im not forgetting them
A lot of complainers that think perma-stealth is unreasonable don't get it either. It's exactly as you say, when you're close enough to a stealthed TR you will see him, if you do AoE damage or just got lucky swinging your sword, you will see him. If the TR attacks (granted, not so much with CoS) you will see him.
It's really baffling to see how some people just want to stick with that 'perma-stealth UBER!!' jig while they should know that perma-stealth is in no way what they are describing.
Ah well, some people just enjoy deliberate ignorance I guess, makes them better whiners.
You've fixed nothing. All you've done is change the rogue's role in the game. The thing you need to realize is that rogue are currently strikers; and the only single target melee DPS in the game. It's fine that you have an idea of what rogues should do in this game, but that's not how the developers designed them. They made us an in-your-face striker class, who pretty much has combat advantage throughout the duration of a fight, even if its one on one. So not only do you want to change the way of feats work, but you want to change our entire playstyle, and you call this feasible? Your image of what a rogue should be has no bearing on what we actually are in this game. Honestly, when I picked the class I had the same idea as you. I thought we'd be sneaky little weaklings, but I've realized that we are really more swashbuckling duellist's, than cowardly thieves. Our class armor sets even reflect this point. We are basically designed as fighters who use dirty tricks and flashy moves to overcome better armored opponents, but we are still frontline fighters. You may not like that, and it's fine, but in order to change our role completely in the game to opportunistic weaklings; you would have to do a lot more than "change a few stealth feats to CA bonuses". You're oversimplifying the issue by a wide margin.
If you really played on your "girlfriend's" rogue account, then you would know how difficult it is to "coordinate attacks" and "take advantage of positions" in PvP fights. Everyone is constantly jumping around and there's so many bright flashing attacks, stuns, and CC; that's it's nearly impossible to do what you're suggesting. Stealth is our way of keeping CA even amongst all this chaos.
Oh, and I'm not acting like stealth is all we can do. I sometimes don't even use it. But to use you rogue at it's most effective, against a player who knows how to play their GF, GWF, or CW expertly, then you will certainly need as much help as you can get. Stealth is the great equalizer, and that's why it's our tab button. Here's a small question, if you did make stealth have a ridiculous cooldown so that we are hardly ever in it, what then should our tab button do?
Well, Dailies are supposed to be incredibly powerful. All B&S does is refill stealth. That's not going to win you any fights. If you look at the other rogue dailies, they are a game-changer. They make it so that a fight that you are losing, is suddenly going in your favor or even over. At the very least, B&S would have to have some devastating impact on a opponent who hits the dummy. A severe damage penalty or an extremely long daze. Something.
And we would still have abilities like Shadow Strike and Gloaming Cut to refill stealth instantly. So what would this fix?
Don't get me wrong, I would totally prefer your idea. Having Lashing Blade + SE are encounter abilities would truly make us overpowered. We would be unstoppable.
Indeed friend. The rogue in this game is clearly based more on a powerful melee striker, than a cowardly sneaker. Look at the CG trailer. That rogue wasn't hiding. She wasn't making sure she was in the shadows or only attacking preoccupied enemies. She was fighting hordes of enemies alone, face-to-face, and even took on a big heavily-armored bruiser. People don't like the rogue being the premier fighter class. They see their GWF with the huge hulking sword and bulky armor and wonder why they are off-tank defenders. It's just silly.
We are not sneaky cowards in this game. We are more swashbuckling duellists. Roguish bladesmen, who excel on the battlefield. We use unscrupulous tactics and dirty tricks, to overcome heavily-armored enemies. We are essentially Bronn from Game of Thrones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y
Not necessarily? I just don't want the entire stealth mechanic nerfed into oblivion just because of some "exploitable" build I don't even use. Most of the suggestions in this thread don't simply make perma-stealth impossible. They make the stealth mechanic itself practically useless. You are fully capable of making a balanced Saboteur rogue who relies on stealth, but can't use it permanently, and sacrifices damage for it. Yet, they would be completely useless if these suggestions were used.
And I frankly don't trust PWI to properly balance classes in this game without utterly breaking something.
Well it would be silly if a guy named Pinkfont typed in green, wouldn't it?
the only thing that makes stealth builds OP is tenebrous but then again tenebrous makes anything OP. i tried the perma stealth build whitout tene (i'm poor) and it sucks compared to my regular pve with a bit of pvp care build.
if there is one thing i, as a rogue, consider OP about my character is the way lurker's assault interacts with +stealth feats and encounters. right now you can setup your rogue (even an executioner one, yo ujust need to be human) so that encounters won't break stealth during lurkers meaning you can use an unlimited amount of impact shots at +60% power (no charges used up from stealth) with decent range and possibly finish off with a (likely) 1hit ko lashing blade. it's not intended for enocunters to not break stealth during lurker, that much i think is OP.
If you can come up with a way to get rid of perma-stealth builds without utterly breaking the stealth mechanic, then be my guest. I just can't personally think of a way to do it, and that's what worries me. We both have our worries. The rest of your suggestions are silly. Using stealth on bosses and when capping points are completely fair tactics, which fit the rogue character and are not gamebreaking. The real problem is that it's a tactic used by perma-stealth rogues, who completely use the stealth mechanic in a way it wasn't really meant to be used. I can't solo a PvE dungeon boss, but apparently they can (or at least anecdotal evidence suggests they can). We shouldn't all be punished for that. It's unfair.
As a rogue I rely on being temporarily hidden from the boss many times throughout a fight. Especially in the days when GF weren't welcome in dungeons. Your problem is with people being able to do this indefinitely, and that's what you should be worried about changing. I shouldn't be penalized for something someone else is doing. And the small amount of time my character has in stealth is essential, but not game-breaking.
Capturing points is a game mechanic. You're thinking about it too much. Contesting someone's control of an area usually involves more than just standing on a circle, and there's usually more than 10 people involved. None of it really makes sense, and it doesn't have to.
Being able to use stealth while capturing points isn't game-breaking. Perma-stealth is (supposedly). In my experience, my stealth is gone before I can fully cap an area, and that's why I only pop it when I see someone coming or I'm half-way there. Since people can see that a cap is being taken, even if you are stealthed, they can just use AoE/pushbacks and stop you even if they can't see you. It's perfectly balanced. The only thing that breaks it is once again, perma-stealth.
I don't want my character crippled because of something someone else is doing. Mess with their character, not mine.
You being penalised isnt the be all and end all. If a class is being used in a way to break the boundries of what is reasonable then it needs to be changed. Its simple. I can boil it down to one issue with regards to your posts over an over again.
Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me
This game is so unbalanced in pvp and pve. Now that there is 20 man pvp the devs need to react or lose players. Now again you will say okay you leave dont pick on me .......
Expect the nerfbat but dont expect it to be balanced look at what the devs did to the CW and the buffs they gave to the GF and GWF.
Just relax and look at it from another classes point of view insead of your one limited view.
Buff Nerf Buff Nerf it goes on and on.