Pulling agro off the cleric has been easy but near impossible to pulling agro off the TR or CW. IMO Sent specced GWF's need an on demand hard taunt.
I honestly dont think its the GWF's role to pull aggro off of those DPS heavy classes. I'm not trying to pull aggro of the CW ... I am using their mob clustering to my advantage. The CW teleport is effective enough for them to get clear and push and shield will always give them space.
As far as the TR goes ... they are their own problem. :P More specifically ... the guardian fighter is the one that needs to pull the big target off of the TR.
The cleric is the only one I really worry about ... I help the CW when I can but mostly just try to add to the damage of whatever is on them to get mobs out of the way faster.
One thing that bothers me is that Conquest GFs (their DPS spec) can hold threat waaaaaay better than our Sentinel (tanking) spec can, while still not being all THAT squishy. (Now, I'm not asking to be as good as a GF of any spec at holding threat, but I would like to come closer than I currently feel like I am.)
Our Sentinel spec still doesn't seem to have the level of threat generation that it needs in order to fully perform the offtanking role to the level that it should.
One thing I do like about the GWF class is that, since we are generally the "fill in" character in a balanced party, and since Unstoppable and Sprint are nice, we are usually the ideal candidate for running into a group of mobs to help up a party member who got downed. Immunity to most CC via unstoppable means only a limited range of knockback/knockup effects can break our revive channel, and a combination of Sprint and CaGI can let us perform fast positioning swaps that can make the revive much safer to begin with (less chance of the person insta-sploding from AoE as soon as they stand back up). This is especially true if the downed person is the CW and the mobs are running wild as a result, meaning that everyone else is very busy. I like reviving people when they've been downed -- it feels nice -- and it's one of the niches of the class I greatly enjoy (ironically, I rarely have the time or safety available to help people up on my DC unless they managed to die in a very convenient place -- I'm too busy keeping everyone else from going down!).
I agree. Defense should be in your gear and should be the least of your concern in powers and feats. In group play the cleric will compensate for the lack of defense (as well as the temp HP) my gear is angled towards power, defense and recovery with a little armor penetration and deflection thrown in for good measure. my powers are geared towards control and AoE and my feats and passives are geared towards damage enhancement (crit and damage buffs) and mobility.
3k recovery>3k crit>2.2k arm pen>power>defense>deflect. You can't skip 3k recovery, it is the most important factor at this moment(cdr action points).Also you can not skip critical ,since feats synergize with it (Student of the Sword, Deep Gash for example). Armor Pen will give you more damage than power until you get to capstone, so it is better than Power until that point. Destroyer is the best passive in high end gear as it goes for PvE, with Steel Blitz second if you have the crit capstone (if not Weapon Master is 2nd).
Thats the basics as it goes for PvE dps GWF. At that point, you will perfom a lot better than CWs in aoe (even if they push off edges half the instance), and pretty close with TRs. As for tanking, I don't think it is the best option to bring a GWF, maybe we will be forced more into it when ranger or any other dps class is released (i hope with appropriate class adjustments). Right now if you want to give to GWF a role that he best performs in, that is AoE cleaving, thats what he exceeds over other classes and is best at. He is not better at controling over a CW, or tanking than a GF. You maybe can do the later, but not as effectively as a GF would do.
In my experience, I don't see the reason atm to roll into Sentinel for PvE, since with Unstoppable, Astral Shield, some pots and avoiding enemy effects, you can survive enough to cleave them down. That in my opinion is what GWF is most effective at.
Edit :
Like most experienced players say, we lack role and benefits into group over bringing a second class instead of GWF. We need some tweeks to be efficient to groups with our unique role, not just as a tank wanna be filler in place of GF.
I agree with most people. 5 target cap is wrong (we already have the limitation of area of swing). We also need something extra to buff the group so they think about bringing a GWF over something else. Studend of the Sword doesn't seem to be enough to even consider it (maybe they should make it an aura around us, or buff group members with +arm pen instead of its current state), I don't know, and I don't like getting to a publicer's field. But in my opinion, the truth is that GWF while is a nice class, it lacks effectiveness for a group. They have to do something to be more desirable now, and even more when ranger will be released, or we are as good as dead.
0
torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There in lies the problem, when the game launched they were not billed as a defender, and as a pure defender they honestly suck.
they are an off tank that was per the wiki a DPS that could off tank, I've had mine since closed beta, I've watched them go from where they should be, to completely worthless, to sub par. Right now they are still sub par. It is not a pure damage boost we need, more of an effectiveness that we need. GWF are not needed in dungeons, bring along a CW for control + better aoe. Bring along a GF for a crapton better tanking. Bring along a TR for boss murder. As long as our hits are capped at 5 targets and we don't bring anything else to the table besides limited aoe dps we will be sub par. While sometimes I do pug and i feel like a god vs some of the other classes i remember to take a look at their gear.... then i look at how much I'm out damaging them by. Yes i might be getting 4-8 million more dps but then again im **** near fully enchanted out with AoW and Vigilant sets, I have 3 ancient swords just so i can swap em out and do the best i can all with different enchants depending on what is needed.. Yet they with T-1 gear can do not to much less damage than me. I have to try and burn everything, keep on top of my game, glitch/cancel animations to be effective(yes this is a bug and hopefully will be fixed just so people shut up about it), and god forbid if a CW or DC wants to punt stuff around.
While yes it is rather fun to have all of this, if you bring it to another class you will excel to even greater heights than a GWF can hope to achieve. While i do not want a pure out damage buff, i would like stuff like uncapped targets (stupid idea for the aoe class to have them capped to begin with) Unstopable unlocking different abilities within our skills as i believe spacejew did a write up on. And above all less reliance on bringing a CW that wants to gimp himself to help out a GWF.
Off tanking makes it a defender class, unless my reasoning is flawed. It has a sustained DPS with a mild AoE format which I would argue is the main mode of its off-tanking ( not taunting targets ). You pull them by hitting them. you just have to hit a lot of them as fast as possible. The Main tank will not get flanked by mobs that are dead. And getting flanked is the biggest problem I noticed when playing a GF.
I'm not at level cap yet so I wont go on about how accomplished I am as a GWF. But I have heard people say that they suck below level 40 ... I'm not seeing that. I'm getting piles of kills and can effectively protect a cleric and the flank of a GF.
Technically no class is "needed", but some are easier to play. CW is not nearly as intense or entertaining as the GWF. The combination of their ranged attacks, dailies, teleport and control powers, the CW are the easy mode. DC is the only other class that is near the intensity of the GWF if they are actively engaged in healing. If their healing isn't required, they can be pretty dull too.
If you are in the game for the gear or glory then maybe GWF isn't the class for you. You will have an easier time with a ranged DPS or a striker class. I like the class because of all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I need to process while I am playing it. I'm not looking for a class with a "me win" button.
I prefer play a main tank, but in this game the battlefield management seems to fall on the GWF and CW's because of the endless waves of mobs. That is why I took a chance on this much maligned class ... and I am glad I did.
0
torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
3k recovery>3k crit>2.2k arm pen>power>defense>deflect. You can't skip 3k recovery, it is the most important factor at this moment(cdr action points).Also you can not skip critical ,since feats synergize with it (Student of the Sword, Deep Gash for example). Armor Pen will give you more damage than power until you get to capstone, so it is better than Power until that point. Destroyer is the best passive in high end gear as it goes for PvE, with Steel Blitz second if you have the crit capstone (if not Weapon Master is 2nd).
Thats the basics as it goes for PvE dps GWF. At that point, you will perfom a lot better than CWs in aoe (even if they push off edges half the instance), and pretty close with TRs. As for tanking, I don't think it is the best option to bring a GWF, maybe we will be forced more into it when ranger or any other dps class is released (i hope with appropriate class adjustments). Right now if you want to give to GWF a role that he best performs in, that is AoE cleaving, thats what he exceeds over other classes and is best at. He is not better at controling over a CW, or tanking than a GF. You maybe can do the later, but not as effectively as a GF would do.
In my experience, I don't see the reason atm to roll into Sentinel for PvE, since with Unstoppable, Astral Shield, some pots and avoiding enemy effects, you can survive enough to cleave them down. That in my opinion is what GWF is most effective at.
I have a defense focus in gear because of the feat that translates 20% of that into power.
I am running a half-orc so I wasn't putting that much focus into my crit chance ... did buff the crit impact though.
the crit bleed buff was based on power so I wanted to keep that focused. I thought sacrificing a few % of crit chance for increased power would have a better overall effect.
I will probably respec when I get to 60 anyway so thanks for the tips. I have been seeing the benefit of recovery + armor pen. I may need to increase my armor pen a little and scale down the defense. I will try that on my next gear rotation.
Off tanking makes it a defender class, unless my reasoning is flawed. It has a sustained DPS with a mild AoE format which I would argue is the main mode of its off-tanking ( not taunting targets ). You pull them by hitting them. you just have to hit a lot of them as fast as possible. The Main tank will not get flanked by mobs that are dead. And getting flanked is the biggest problem I noticed when playing a GF.
I'm not at level cap yet so I wont go on about how accomplished I am as a GWF. But I have heard people say that they suck below level 40 ... I'm not seeing that. I'm getting piles of kills and can effectively protect a cleric and the flank of a GF.
Technically no class is "needed", but some are easier to play. CW is not nearly as intense or entertaining as the GWF. The combination of their ranged attacks, dailies, teleport and control powers, the CW are the easy mode. DC is the only other class that is near the intensity of the GWF if they are actively engaged in healing. If their healing isn't required, they can be pretty dull too.
If you are in the game for the gear or glory then maybe GWF isn't the class for you. You will have an easier time with a ranged DPS or a striker class. I like the class because of all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I need to process while I am playing it. I'm not looking for a class with a "me win" button.
I prefer play a main tank, but in this game the battlefield management seems to fall on the GWF and CW's because of the endless waves of mobs. That is why I took a chance on this much maligned class ... and I am glad I did.
Technically a TR can be called a defender class by your logic? or a DC? just because you can ALSO do something does not mean that is your primary role. The major problems people have with GWF is that they are not needed, hell in CN not wanted. There are classes that are NEEDED, you MUST bring a DC to a party or you will fail, its **** near REQUIRED to bring a CW to a party for t2 dungeons. Try downing spider without a TR, no one else pulls the dps off that is needed. CN ... yeah anyone who has ever ran it understands all those problems already. Just because you can tank does not make you a defender, you are a DPS first tank secondary, you are also supposed to be the AOE god in the game. GWF are not, not vs anyone who can play their CW correctly. I never said i want a "me win" button but when there is not a role that is not performed better by another class then why bring the lower performing one? You don't take the beater car to the race track, you don't let the bench warmer try and win you the championship. You bring the best you have, and when GWF is out performed by every other class then the question remains.... why?
You have to be careful with that feat modification. Comparing Titan's to Avatar of War, you are only gaining an increase in defense in the low 1000's, while increasing your survivability by an even larger faction due to the regeneration and huge deflection value. Life steal on the titan's set is sub-par. (though still reasonable.) As the sentinel capstone only increases by 20%, this gives us a conversion of roughly 240 more power then you wearing any other gear set from our base feat. At 4000k power, that only adds approx. 5% damage for a dps average.
The way GWF gear is based currentlyd, it isn't a particularly useful conversion. (though required, in a way.) Even our low t1's will outperform the conversion of defense to power when you are looking for a boost in power.
Meh, only thing I'd like to see for Sentinel GWFs is to not be queued as a DPS in PUGs. GFs & DCs basically have no queue time, while we fumble around until we've squeezed into a ready-made.
2 GWFS, 3 TRs, 2 GFs, 1 HR, 1 CW
0
torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You bring the best you have, and when GWF is out performed by every other class then the question remains.... why?
That's a great question. There are few possible obvious cases:
1) The GWF has a flawed design. It cannot statistically be as effective as other classes.
2) The GWF requires more effort or ability to be as effective as other classes.
Ranged classes are easier to play ... always. With equal effort and ability once should be more effective with a ranged class. I expect the ranger to be the really popular one if it is a ranged DPS. People will love that especially if it is burst DPS. Generally my CW will sit in one area and fling things around. Melee classes need to run around the map to be effective. This leads me to believe that at the moment 2 is still a likely candidate as a cause of its ineffectiveness. I'm not at all surprised that the classes in this game that require a great deal of positioning and strategy get the most hate. GF and GWF require a hell of a lot more effort in terms of positioning. The DC,CW are effectively ranged and the TR is a striker (find the big thing and kill it).
I have yet to see the data for #1.
In any case however, you should probably consider another class. you are clearly unhappy about this one.
The cap is what really makes this class fall behind. 5 enemies, really? That's nothing in some of these dungeons. Does CW have a cap? If not then ours should be removed, or at the very least raised.
Removing the cap won't buff us very much. Yes we will have higher totals.
You will also still need to hit a mob 2-3x more than any other class (except maybe DC).
We should get an inherent damage bonus that scales with amount of mobs hit. People would have a reason to take a GWF.
We should be just as useful as a CW in regards to fighting hordes of monsters. They can handle a large crowd by controlling them and pitching them off a cliff. a GWF should be able to handle the same crowds as effectively or otherwise there is no reason to take a GWF over a CW even when you already have a CW in the group.
How about remove cap and increase damage per enemy hit while unstopable is going. So basically if 30 mobs around we a beast if 1-3 mobs we still meh. It would also have to be a meaningful increase per mob say 5-8%? If you think about it this way it would force GWF to always want to be fighting huge groups, it would also force the CW to WANT to pull everything together for us.
Honestly I love both my GF and GWF, but since my GF is basically done (yeah I need a couple better enchants.. who doesn't?) and since they still haven't fixed Knight's Valor I've been messing around on my GWF.
I picked Half orc, not for racials or anything like that.. They are simply the largest character model and I'm kind of digging the tusks. If they ever put in Goliaths or Half-giants/firbolgs or something I will prolly reroll.
These are my thoughts from the viewpoint of a Guardian Fighter who has farmed every dungeon legitimately converting to a GWF.
First thing I noticed was that the At-Wills you start with... are horrible. In fact not a single At-Will does anywhere close to Weapon damage.. which seems bloody wrong. If I were making this class First At-Will would have been Wicked Strike. It's the only At-will that much fits in with my idea of a DnD 2hand warrior, big sweeping hits that pretty much just cleave through stuff. The damage of the class however seems... off. I don't mean on the DPS charts or anything, small quick attacks just do not much fit my idea of a GREAT-WEAPON fighter.
Second thing is.. God this class is so much faster than my GF. GFs feel like turtles, even when they aren't blocking. While this one can just zip out of red, and speed to reposition etc.
Third would be that while a lot of the feats are amazing, a lot of the active powers are kind of meh. The passives seem good though.
There's more but I will leave it at that for now.
0
templarknight91Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The cap is what really makes this class fall behind. 5 enemies, really? That's nothing in some of these dungeons. Does CW have a cap? If not then ours should be removed, or at the very least raised.
I've played other MMORPGs where the AoE class max targets is 5-10, so having 5 Cap isn't anything new to me, but they do tend to throw tons of mobs at us in these Dungeons so maybe it should be raised to 10 and add a feat to make it +5 more for a total of 15. could probaby take away that useless combat advantage feat at the end of our Heroic tree
Comments
I honestly dont think its the GWF's role to pull aggro off of those DPS heavy classes. I'm not trying to pull aggro of the CW ... I am using their mob clustering to my advantage. The CW teleport is effective enough for them to get clear and push and shield will always give them space.
As far as the TR goes ... they are their own problem. :P More specifically ... the guardian fighter is the one that needs to pull the big target off of the TR.
The cleric is the only one I really worry about ... I help the CW when I can but mostly just try to add to the damage of whatever is on them to get mobs out of the way faster.
Our Sentinel spec still doesn't seem to have the level of threat generation that it needs in order to fully perform the offtanking role to the level that it should.
One thing I do like about the GWF class is that, since we are generally the "fill in" character in a balanced party, and since Unstoppable and Sprint are nice, we are usually the ideal candidate for running into a group of mobs to help up a party member who got downed. Immunity to most CC via unstoppable means only a limited range of knockback/knockup effects can break our revive channel, and a combination of Sprint and CaGI can let us perform fast positioning swaps that can make the revive much safer to begin with (less chance of the person insta-sploding from AoE as soon as they stand back up). This is especially true if the downed person is the CW and the mobs are running wild as a result, meaning that everyone else is very busy. I like reviving people when they've been downed -- it feels nice -- and it's one of the niches of the class I greatly enjoy (ironically, I rarely have the time or safety available to help people up on my DC unless they managed to die in a very convenient place -- I'm too busy keeping everyone else from going down!).
3k recovery>3k crit>2.2k arm pen>power>defense>deflect. You can't skip 3k recovery, it is the most important factor at this moment(cdr action points).Also you can not skip critical ,since feats synergize with it (Student of the Sword, Deep Gash for example). Armor Pen will give you more damage than power until you get to capstone, so it is better than Power until that point. Destroyer is the best passive in high end gear as it goes for PvE, with Steel Blitz second if you have the crit capstone (if not Weapon Master is 2nd).
Thats the basics as it goes for PvE dps GWF. At that point, you will perfom a lot better than CWs in aoe (even if they push off edges half the instance), and pretty close with TRs. As for tanking, I don't think it is the best option to bring a GWF, maybe we will be forced more into it when ranger or any other dps class is released (i hope with appropriate class adjustments). Right now if you want to give to GWF a role that he best performs in, that is AoE cleaving, thats what he exceeds over other classes and is best at. He is not better at controling over a CW, or tanking than a GF. You maybe can do the later, but not as effectively as a GF would do.
In my experience, I don't see the reason atm to roll into Sentinel for PvE, since with Unstoppable, Astral Shield, some pots and avoiding enemy effects, you can survive enough to cleave them down. That in my opinion is what GWF is most effective at.
Edit :
Like most experienced players say, we lack role and benefits into group over bringing a second class instead of GWF. We need some tweeks to be efficient to groups with our unique role, not just as a tank wanna be filler in place of GF.
I agree with most people. 5 target cap is wrong (we already have the limitation of area of swing). We also need something extra to buff the group so they think about bringing a GWF over something else. Studend of the Sword doesn't seem to be enough to even consider it (maybe they should make it an aura around us, or buff group members with +arm pen instead of its current state), I don't know, and I don't like getting to a publicer's field. But in my opinion, the truth is that GWF while is a nice class, it lacks effectiveness for a group. They have to do something to be more desirable now, and even more when ranger will be released, or we are as good as dead.
Off tanking makes it a defender class, unless my reasoning is flawed. It has a sustained DPS with a mild AoE format which I would argue is the main mode of its off-tanking ( not taunting targets ). You pull them by hitting them. you just have to hit a lot of them as fast as possible. The Main tank will not get flanked by mobs that are dead. And getting flanked is the biggest problem I noticed when playing a GF.
I'm not at level cap yet so I wont go on about how accomplished I am as a GWF. But I have heard people say that they suck below level 40 ... I'm not seeing that. I'm getting piles of kills and can effectively protect a cleric and the flank of a GF.
Technically no class is "needed", but some are easier to play. CW is not nearly as intense or entertaining as the GWF. The combination of their ranged attacks, dailies, teleport and control powers, the CW are the easy mode. DC is the only other class that is near the intensity of the GWF if they are actively engaged in healing. If their healing isn't required, they can be pretty dull too.
If you are in the game for the gear or glory then maybe GWF isn't the class for you. You will have an easier time with a ranged DPS or a striker class. I like the class because of all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I need to process while I am playing it. I'm not looking for a class with a "me win" button.
I prefer play a main tank, but in this game the battlefield management seems to fall on the GWF and CW's because of the endless waves of mobs. That is why I took a chance on this much maligned class ... and I am glad I did.
I have a defense focus in gear because of the feat that translates 20% of that into power.
I am running a half-orc so I wasn't putting that much focus into my crit chance ... did buff the crit impact though.
the crit bleed buff was based on power so I wanted to keep that focused. I thought sacrificing a few % of crit chance for increased power would have a better overall effect.
I will probably respec when I get to 60 anyway so thanks for the tips. I have been seeing the benefit of recovery + armor pen. I may need to increase my armor pen a little and scale down the defense. I will try that on my next gear rotation.
Technically a TR can be called a defender class by your logic? or a DC? just because you can ALSO do something does not mean that is your primary role. The major problems people have with GWF is that they are not needed, hell in CN not wanted. There are classes that are NEEDED, you MUST bring a DC to a party or you will fail, its **** near REQUIRED to bring a CW to a party for t2 dungeons. Try downing spider without a TR, no one else pulls the dps off that is needed. CN ... yeah anyone who has ever ran it understands all those problems already. Just because you can tank does not make you a defender, you are a DPS first tank secondary, you are also supposed to be the AOE god in the game. GWF are not, not vs anyone who can play their CW correctly. I never said i want a "me win" button but when there is not a role that is not performed better by another class then why bring the lower performing one? You don't take the beater car to the race track, you don't let the bench warmer try and win you the championship. You bring the best you have, and when GWF is out performed by every other class then the question remains.... why?
The way GWF gear is based currentlyd, it isn't a particularly useful conversion. (though required, in a way.) Even our low t1's will outperform the conversion of defense to power when you are looking for a boost in power.
That's a great question. There are few possible obvious cases:
1) The GWF has a flawed design. It cannot statistically be as effective as other classes.
2) The GWF requires more effort or ability to be as effective as other classes.
Ranged classes are easier to play ... always. With equal effort and ability once should be more effective with a ranged class. I expect the ranger to be the really popular one if it is a ranged DPS. People will love that especially if it is burst DPS. Generally my CW will sit in one area and fling things around. Melee classes need to run around the map to be effective. This leads me to believe that at the moment 2 is still a likely candidate as a cause of its ineffectiveness. I'm not at all surprised that the classes in this game that require a great deal of positioning and strategy get the most hate. GF and GWF require a hell of a lot more effort in terms of positioning. The DC,CW are effectively ranged and the TR is a striker (find the big thing and kill it).
I have yet to see the data for #1.
In any case however, you should probably consider another class. you are clearly unhappy about this one.
It really needs more of a damage increase when hitting multiple mobs (and remove cap).
Single target is TR domain. Control is the wizards. Swinging a 6ft hunk of metal into a crowd is GWF.
Give us more of a damage increase when smacking more than 1 mob.
Nothing like running t2's and feeling like the 3rd wheel on a bicycle.
Leveling my CW now and have two slots opened up for the new classes when they get implemented.
You will also still need to hit a mob 2-3x more than any other class (except maybe DC).
We should get an inherent damage bonus that scales with amount of mobs hit. People would have a reason to take a GWF.
We should be just as useful as a CW in regards to fighting hordes of monsters. They can handle a large crowd by controlling them and pitching them off a cliff. a GWF should be able to handle the same crowds as effectively or otherwise there is no reason to take a GWF over a CW even when you already have a CW in the group.
I picked Half orc, not for racials or anything like that.. They are simply the largest character model and I'm kind of digging the tusks. If they ever put in Goliaths or Half-giants/firbolgs or something I will prolly reroll.
These are my thoughts from the viewpoint of a Guardian Fighter who has farmed every dungeon legitimately converting to a GWF.
First thing I noticed was that the At-Wills you start with... are horrible. In fact not a single At-Will does anywhere close to Weapon damage.. which seems bloody wrong. If I were making this class First At-Will would have been Wicked Strike. It's the only At-will that much fits in with my idea of a DnD 2hand warrior, big sweeping hits that pretty much just cleave through stuff. The damage of the class however seems... off. I don't mean on the DPS charts or anything, small quick attacks just do not much fit my idea of a GREAT-WEAPON fighter.
Second thing is.. God this class is so much faster than my GF. GFs feel like turtles, even when they aren't blocking. While this one can just zip out of red, and speed to reposition etc.
Third would be that while a lot of the feats are amazing, a lot of the active powers are kind of meh. The passives seem good though.
There's more but I will leave it at that for now.
Pretty sure they're talking about CC Immunity through the passive Tab Unstoppable.
I've played other MMORPGs where the AoE class max targets is 5-10, so having 5 Cap isn't anything new to me, but they do tend to throw tons of mobs at us in these Dungeons so maybe it should be raised to 10 and add a feat to make it +5 more for a total of 15. could probaby take away that useless combat advantage feat at the end of our Heroic tree