2)Thats the main point of this build. Even if target immune to CC, chill stacks still apply to it and with CoI they wont dissapear in 2 seconds. This stated in patch notes and it works.
So, TR or GWF (same thing for GF in block) - yea, they gonna run around immune to CC, some of them slowed though, since slow applies on top of GWF big-red-guy mode (they can sprint normally tho) and on top of GF blocking. BUT! with 6 stacks of chill on them. So as soon as GF show his HAMSTER out of the shield, or GWF red-mode over or after 5s in case of TR they gonna be frozen. And then frozen again and again. And again. Untill they eventually die and spam in chat "OMFG WTF IS THIS CC! NERF!!!1";))
CoI (on Spell Mastery) can freeze? I tested powers pre-patch and yesterday in PvP and CoI alone can't freeze. For the freeze after 6 Chill Stacks I HAVE to use RoF. Is this different for you for some reason?
And how can you freeze them so often in a row? I mean, at some point your encounters are on cooldown. Are you only using RoF in this time?
EDIT:
While immunity on u still can kite with teleports like a normal wizard, even better, since u have speed buff from Glacial Movement (which stacks by the way xD)
CoI (on Spell Mastery) can freeze? I tested powers pre-patch and yesterday in PvP and CoI alone can't freeze. For the freeze after 6 Chill Stacks I HAVE to use RoF. Is this different for you for some reason?
And how can you freeze them so often in a row? I mean, at some point your encounters are on cooldown. Are you only using RoF in this time?
For the record the answer to your question is ironically enough located in the section you choose to quote.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
I know what I quoted, but I wanted to confirm it because my experiences are different.
He wasn't implying that CoI by itself can freeze, he was saying it maintains applied chill stacks even on CC immune targets. It does that off of tab too, but on tab it produces them so that one tap from anything that applies chill puts it at six and are thus frozen. Ergo, when a targets CC immunity in PvP wears off Frozen is instantly applied as they carry their six stacks around for a short time before a surprise freeze.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
He wasn't implying that CoI by itself can freeze, he was saying it maintains applied chill stacks even on CC immune targets. It does that off of tab too, but on tab it produces them so that one tap from anything that applies chill puts it at six and are thus frozen. Ergo, when a targets CC immunity in PvP wears off Frozen is instantly applied as they carry their six stacks around for a short time before a surprise freeze.
He said "they gonna be frozen" - that's ambiguous:
a) frozen by CoI itself, what I asked, or
b) frozen by a RoF tick.
So I just wanted to know if our experiences differ. :-D
And by the way, only RoF seems to be able to freeze when 6 Chill Stacks are reached. I tried it with Chill Strike, Icy Rays, CoI and Chilling Cloud - non of them freeze on their own.
Again: MY experiences.
He said "they gonna be frozen" - that's ambiguous:
a) frozen by CoI itself, what I asked, or
b) frozen by a RoF tick.
So I just wanted to know if our experiences differ. :-D
And by the way, only RoF seems to be able to freeze when 6 Chill Stacks are reached. I tried it with Chill Strike, Icy Rays, CoI and Chilling Cloud - non of them freeze on their own.
Again: MY experiences.
He obviously doesn't organize his posts very well, but your testing must have consisted of thinking about it because I know for a fact Chilling Cloud can freeze all on it's own. Go hit a training dummy with the 3rd hit six times.
Icy Terrain can also freeze all on it's own.
Chill Strike and Icy Ray don't apply enough stacks on their own, and CoI only applies stacks in tab. In fooling around with it, no it does not freeze on it's own. Sadly, that is the only part of your post that's true and it had nothing to do with anything anyone actually said.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
He obviously doesn't organize his posts very well, but your testing must have consisted of thinking about it because I know for a fact Chilling Cloud can freeze all on it's own. Go hit a training dummy with the 3rd hit six times.
Okay, then I have a false memory. And no, I did actual testing.
Chill Strike and Icy Ray don't apply enough stacks on their own
They don't need to. I tested it with 6 Chill Stacks on a dummy and then casted CS and IR. Besides their own effect, they don't transition to "frozen", though they add Chill Stacks when below 6. I guess they only refresh the Chill Stacks when 6 Stacks are reached - like the first two hits of Chilling Cloud refresh the Stacks now.
I think most people that demand a team take two CW are doing so because most CW build for their damage first and team utility/CC/recharge second. You only really need one CW, if you have two it's just because with two of them it's not as big of a deal when they screw up royally when pulling off ultra specific exploits that they came up with because they play with damage focused CW.
Like people demanding that you put Repel on tab. Five targets knocked versus infinite targets knocked on Shield Pulse...yeah real useful there when compared to the huge AP gain on Entangling Force on tab. Or Conduit of Ice, which doesn't build AP anywhere near as fast but has uncapped freeze limits. This lets you recover quickly from any 'oops' moments, whereas if you built for DPS you're probably dead after any screw ups as you aren't rocking enough recharge. As a bonus, if you don't have ET on tab and you screw up your AS/Shield Burst you are now dead in the water. Five targets knocked back isn't going to save you. Congrats.
With Int and Wis as your two primary stats, you build AP faster and all your skills recharge faster. Most CW are probably building for Int and Cha for the increased damage on criticals and added Combat Advantage damage. Even if a mage does concentrate on dealing damage, they don't perform as well as a GWF at actually doing said damage. If they built for damage, yeah you might need two because neither of them built their characters to be control monsters. A mage doesn't even do the single-target damage or the AoE damage of a GWF. This assumes the GWF isn't an idiot, but since people are already building team loadouts that are idiot proof, I think that it's just a fact that lots of people make it into T1 and T2 that still haven't learned how to play their class in the end game.
Some boss fights do rely too much on CW doing things perfectly, and a lot of people rage if you mess up even once. This is also because people would rather take the time to gather up huge groups of add's and drag them to specific area's of the map to knock them off instead of just clearing them. Since a lot of groups apparently don't believe in taking GF or GWF, they also get zero chances to fix any errors that any of the players might make. Great for a perfect group of players, less perfect if you're a human or do PUG's.
Just as an example, I did Spellplague last night on both my CW and my GWF. My GWF completed it, my CW did not because the cleric, who had not played since the AS nerf, demanded that I put Repel on tab instead of ET even though ET allowed me to perma Singularity. That didn't matter though, because by darn it Repel is all that matters. So he quit after one attempt at the boss, which failed because the rogue, not me, got knocked into the Acid from behind. Our GF didn't grab the add in time, and the rogue wasn't paying attention, yet somehow it's my fault while I'm chain AS'ing everything into the drink? Yeah, whatever. He rage quit after the first attempt, and blamed me for other people's screw up's.
For the record, the rogue got knocked into the acid just before the end phase when I played through on my Destroyer Reaping Strike build GWF just like the Rogue in my CW's instance. I was the one that burned the boss down the rest of the way after he died. So whatever, believe what you will about classes and loadouts. Control Wizards do amazing control and crappy damage unless you're playing with boneheads.
This is coming from the perspective of someone that has a CW and a GWF in T2.
Well that saved me a lot of typing , great points made and very well said . Maybe you expressed yourself rather emotionally but I know how frustrating it is when you're forced to solo queue from time to time and bump into people that try to tell you how to play your class when they haven't even learned yet how to play theirs for instance .
He said "they gonna be frozen" - that's ambiguous:
a) frozen by CoI itself, what I asked, or
b) frozen by a RoF tick.
So I just wanted to know if our experiences differ. :-D
Rofl are u serious, bro? Ok, my bad, hahah i assumed u, guys, know only RoF and Icy Ground "Freeze" things in this game. So, yea, u should channel RoF for 0.5 seconds or so after immunity ends in order to have stun (with 6 stacks).
And how can you freeze them so often in a row? I mean, at some point your encounters are on cooldown. Are you only using RoF in this time?
Its about encounter sequence.
1) On squishy targets (like TR, CW) there is no need to freeze taht much. So i use: CoI+Chill Strike+RoE (just after u finished casting CS - CS have a flight time, while RoE instant, so RoE hits before CS). At this time u should have 5-6 stacks and target microstunned from CS, so, use RoF and freeze. Than continue to spam RoF for like 1 second, and use Icy Rays (CoI still on, helping with stacks) - at this time u should be at 4-5 stacks of chill. Than spam RoF for 1.5 secs and freeze it again. Since im geared offensively, usually target is dead or soulforged at this time (even before that).
2) On tanky DC/GFs use another sequence: CoI + RoE + spam RoF till 1st freeze (its pretty quick to occur, may be 2 seconds). Than use CS (microstun - 2nd so-called-freeze) and spam RoF - freeze again (3d). Than Icy Rays and spam RoF - 4th freeze. After that time, if target still alive your CoI and RoE should be cooled down. So rinse and repeat.
3)GWF - well, that guy is annoying. Not hard, but annoying. And it really depends on current situation due to those CC immunities.
Rofl are u serious, bro? Ok, my bad, hahah i assumed u, guys, know only RoF and Icy Ground "Freeze" things in this game. So, yea, u should channel RoF for 0.5 seconds or so after immunity ends in order to have stun (with 6 stacks).
1) On squishy targets (like TR, CW) there is no need to freeze taht much. So i use: CoI+Chill Strike+RoE (just after u finished casting CS - CS have a flight time, while RoE instant, so RoE hits before CS). At this time u should have 5-6 stacks and target microstunned from CS, so, use RoF and freeze. Than continue to spam RoF for like 1 second, and use Icy Rays (CoI still on, helping with stacks) - at this time u should be at 4-5 stacks of chill. Than spam RoF for 1.5 secs and freeze it again. Since im geared offensively, usually target is dead or soulforged at this time (even before that).
2) On tanky DC/GFs use another sequence: CoI + RoE + spam RoF till 1st freeze (its pretty quick to occur, may be 2 seconds). Than use CS (microstun - 2nd so-called-freeze) and spam RoF - freeze again (3d). Than Icy Rays and spam RoF - 4th freeze. After that time, if target still alive your CoI and RoE should be cooled down. So rinse and repeat.
3)GWF - well, that guy is annoying. Not hard, but annoying. And it really depends on current situation due to those CC immunities.
Thanks for your guidelines.
EDIT:
But one question regarding 1.). You described as your rotation: "CoI+Chill Strike+RoE"
But Chill Strike can be dodged. Wouldn't it be better to switch that with Icy Rays and use Chill Strike when the player can't dodge anymore (i.e. because of freeze, or the immobilization from Icy Rays)?
I gave up on pvp after the patch. Its just a joke for CW's. Even before the patch they weren't as strong as people thought. GWFs were just underpowered, clerics were gods at winning points, Rouges shotted everything, and GFs didn't know how to play their class. Before patch it was TR, DC, CW, GF, and then GWF power wise. CW's CC sucked, and the only reason they were strong is because enfeeble was op.
Post patch, the power level is TR, GF (their ability to help cap points especially), GWF, CW, DC. Its painful how bad CW's are. They are the squishiest class, with the 3rd best CC ability, and do less damage then most classes. Rouges can still crit for 18k with lashing, or just use CoS + stealth and be invulnerable while killing me. Not to mention good rouges tend to run impossible to catch (or is it kill?) making them take no damage and be immune to cc...lol. GFs can stun lock until death (something CONTROL wizards could never do), and GWFs are an all around pain. I basically stopped pvping even though I used to enjoy it.
I was frustrated after the patch as well but I have been doing okay once I got the hang of the new balance. You have to use teleport smartly to avoid CC otherwise you are dead. This is pretty much how it works for everyone. If you get CC'd early in the fight your gonna die because every class can pump out extreme dmg. Knowing what your enemy is likely to do is very helpful.
GF - They are gonna want to get close enough to knock you down. I use Ray of Frost to break their blocking and then tele away when they are almost in range of their knockdown. Remember they do have some range with this. Ray of Frost after tele to block them then go through my normal rotation. Just accept if you get knocked down one time and your dead. IF they know what they are doing they might go immune, just run away and get to high ground.
TR - If they are perma invis build you have to find them. Even if you do if they run with a certain power they will go immune and stealth back up. If they are not perma invis then tele to avoid dmg and find them then Entangle them and go through normal dmg rotation. Remember any time a TR jumps in the air it could be very bad for you.
CW - whoever gets the first entangle is probably going to win. Also whoever has their daily up.
GWF - just try and stay at range as much as possible. Go through normal dmg rotation as soon as you see them on screen and hope they don't know what they are doing. A good GWF is going to go immune to CC sprint to you, CC you, and then kill you before you can tele.
DC - entangle from max range then run through your dmg rotation. Some of them are a bit "tanky" Ray of Frost them at the end of your dmg rotation to block them if they don't die. If you have Ice knife use it at the beginning of the fight after RoE of course.
Good luck every class has dmg in this game even us. Perma invis rogue's and Immune GFs are the only thing I would consider OP but maybe I just don't know how to fight them properly yet.
I am by no means a great PvPer and I don't have any SS of me going 30-1 or nothing but I do ok if my group is decent. I'm not one of the better PvPer's, heck I'm not even one of the better CW on my server but I have gotten better.
Get your full PvP set and good enchants if you can. I don't have enchants slotted yet so I am limited in what I can do in PvP. Gear is very important, more so than I realized early on.
I was frustrated after the patch as well but I have been doing okay once I got the hang of the new balance. You have to use teleport smartly to avoid CC otherwise you are dead. This is pretty much how it works for everyone. If you get CC'd early in the fight your gonna die because every class can pump out extreme dmg. Knowing what your enemy is likely to do is very helpful.
Great advice, Abandinus, some of my observations:
GF - They are gonna want to get close enough to knock you down. I use Ray of Frost to break their blocking and then tele away when they are almost in range of their knockdown. Remember they do have some range with this. Ray of Frost after tele to block them then go through my normal rotation. Just accept if you get knocked down one time and your dead. IF they know what they are doing they might go immune, just run away and get to high ground.
Agreed. Use At-Wills to break block, stay at range. Once block is down they are as squishy as anybody else.
TR - If they are perma invis build you have to find them. Even if you do if they run with a certain power they will go immune and stealth back up. If they are not perma invis then tele to avoid dmg and find them then Entangle them and go through normal dmg rotation. Remember any time a TR jumps in the air it could be very bad for you.
My second toughest opponent. I can survive if I time the dodge right, but finishing them off requires timing and a little luck. You need to keep them thinking they will win until their health is low enough that you can CC them and then finish them off before they get free and stealth away. The problem is, sometimes they think right or dodge well and you are toast...
CW - whoever gets the first entangle is probably going to win. Also whoever has their daily up.
Disagree a little on this one. Whoever gets the LAST entangle is probably going to win. Of course, sometimes the last one is also the first one. It is not necessarily wise to blow EF first thing...
GWF - just try and stay at range as much as possible. Go through normal dmg rotation as soon as you see them on screen and hope they don't know what they are doing. A good GWF is going to go immune to CC sprint to you, CC you, and then kill you before you can tele.
Toughest fight for me, 1 v 1, by far. Having strong movement buffs and using well-timed dodges while he's immune, staying away, and not getting knocked down are the keys. If you do everything perfectly, or he's not as skilled a player as he can be, you have a chance to get him CC'd when he's vulnerable and burn him down.
This fight, the Rogue, and the Guardian are the reasons I started this thread: they have more control 1 v 1 against me than I have against them!
DC - entangle from max range then run through your dmg rotation. Some of them are a bit "tanky" Ray of Frost them at the end of your dmg rotation to block them if they don't die. If you have Ice knife use it at the beginning of the fight after RoE of course.
Again, somewhat disagree. I find it better to wait until the Cleric is hurt, around half health, before applying CC/RoE; then burn him down when he desperately wants to heal himself, but can't.
Good luck every class has dmg in this game even us. Perma invis rogue's and Immune GFs are the only thing I would consider OP but maybe I just don't know how to fight them properly yet.
I am by no means a great PvPer and I don't have any SS of me going 30-1 or nothing but I do ok if my group is decent. I'm not one of the better PvPer's, heck I'm not even one of the better CW on my server but I have gotten better.
Get your full PvP set and good enchants if you can. I don't have enchants slotted yet so I am limited in what I can do in PvP. Gear is very important, more so than I realized early on.
Excellent point on the CW vs. CW fight. I should clarify, I don't just EF them as soon as possible because like I said you have to think about what they are gonna do to you. Because I know that just like me they want to EF me and then blow me up I actually hold on my EF. If I see them coming I know they are gonna EF fairly early in the fight so I actually tele 2 or 3 times directly at them. This serves 2 purposes.
1. If I'm lucky I dodge their EF blowing the CD which means I will most likely win.
2. I have Reapers Touch so I get 15% more dmg with at will when within 20'.
Comments
And how can you freeze them so often in a row? I mean, at some point your encounters are on cooldown. Are you only using RoF in this time?
lol, nice
For the record the answer to your question is ironically enough located in the section you choose to quote.
He wasn't implying that CoI by itself can freeze, he was saying it maintains applied chill stacks even on CC immune targets. It does that off of tab too, but on tab it produces them so that one tap from anything that applies chill puts it at six and are thus frozen. Ergo, when a targets CC immunity in PvP wears off Frozen is instantly applied as they carry their six stacks around for a short time before a surprise freeze.
a) frozen by CoI itself, what I asked, or
b) frozen by a RoF tick.
So I just wanted to know if our experiences differ. :-D
And by the way, only RoF seems to be able to freeze when 6 Chill Stacks are reached. I tried it with Chill Strike, Icy Rays, CoI and Chilling Cloud - non of them freeze on their own.
Again: MY experiences.
He obviously doesn't organize his posts very well, but your testing must have consisted of thinking about it because I know for a fact Chilling Cloud can freeze all on it's own. Go hit a training dummy with the 3rd hit six times.
Icy Terrain can also freeze all on it's own.
Chill Strike and Icy Ray don't apply enough stacks on their own, and CoI only applies stacks in tab. In fooling around with it, no it does not freeze on it's own. Sadly, that is the only part of your post that's true and it had nothing to do with anything anyone actually said.
Yep, forgot about this spell.
They don't need to. I tested it with 6 Chill Stacks on a dummy and then casted CS and IR. Besides their own effect, they don't transition to "frozen", though they add Chill Stacks when below 6. I guess they only refresh the Chill Stacks when 6 Stacks are reached - like the first two hits of Chilling Cloud refresh the Stacks now.
I'm aware of that, but thanks.
Well that saved me a lot of typing , great points made and very well said . Maybe you expressed yourself rather emotionally but I know how frustrating it is when you're forced to solo queue from time to time and bump into people that try to tell you how to play your class when they haven't even learned yet how to play theirs for instance .
Again: is this a joke?;) Or u implying i use dem hackz or just a liar? Ofc, my experience is the same as yours!xD
Its about encounter sequence.
1) On squishy targets (like TR, CW) there is no need to freeze taht much. So i use: CoI+Chill Strike+RoE (just after u finished casting CS - CS have a flight time, while RoE instant, so RoE hits before CS). At this time u should have 5-6 stacks and target microstunned from CS, so, use RoF and freeze. Than continue to spam RoF for like 1 second, and use Icy Rays (CoI still on, helping with stacks) - at this time u should be at 4-5 stacks of chill. Than spam RoF for 1.5 secs and freeze it again. Since im geared offensively, usually target is dead or soulforged at this time (even before that).
2) On tanky DC/GFs use another sequence: CoI + RoE + spam RoF till 1st freeze (its pretty quick to occur, may be 2 seconds). Than use CS (microstun - 2nd so-called-freeze) and spam RoF - freeze again (3d). Than Icy Rays and spam RoF - 4th freeze. After that time, if target still alive your CoI and RoE should be cooled down. So rinse and repeat.
3)GWF - well, that guy is annoying. Not hard, but annoying. And it really depends on current situation due to those CC immunities.
P.S.
Sry for long post.
My videos
Nope. But different people can have different experiences.
Thanks for your guidelines.
EDIT:
But one question regarding 1.). You described as your rotation: "CoI+Chill Strike+RoE"
But Chill Strike can be dodged. Wouldn't it be better to switch that with Icy Rays and use Chill Strike when the player can't dodge anymore (i.e. because of freeze, or the immobilization from Icy Rays)?
Post patch, the power level is TR, GF (their ability to help cap points especially), GWF, CW, DC. Its painful how bad CW's are. They are the squishiest class, with the 3rd best CC ability, and do less damage then most classes. Rouges can still crit for 18k with lashing, or just use CoS + stealth and be invulnerable while killing me. Not to mention good rouges tend to run impossible to catch (or is it kill?) making them take no damage and be immune to cc...lol. GFs can stun lock until death (something CONTROL wizards could never do), and GWFs are an all around pain. I basically stopped pvping even though I used to enjoy it.
GF - They are gonna want to get close enough to knock you down. I use Ray of Frost to break their blocking and then tele away when they are almost in range of their knockdown. Remember they do have some range with this. Ray of Frost after tele to block them then go through my normal rotation. Just accept if you get knocked down one time and your dead. IF they know what they are doing they might go immune, just run away and get to high ground.
TR - If they are perma invis build you have to find them. Even if you do if they run with a certain power they will go immune and stealth back up. If they are not perma invis then tele to avoid dmg and find them then Entangle them and go through normal dmg rotation. Remember any time a TR jumps in the air it could be very bad for you.
CW - whoever gets the first entangle is probably going to win. Also whoever has their daily up.
GWF - just try and stay at range as much as possible. Go through normal dmg rotation as soon as you see them on screen and hope they don't know what they are doing. A good GWF is going to go immune to CC sprint to you, CC you, and then kill you before you can tele.
DC - entangle from max range then run through your dmg rotation. Some of them are a bit "tanky" Ray of Frost them at the end of your dmg rotation to block them if they don't die. If you have Ice knife use it at the beginning of the fight after RoE of course.
Good luck every class has dmg in this game even us. Perma invis rogue's and Immune GFs are the only thing I would consider OP but maybe I just don't know how to fight them properly yet.
I am by no means a great PvPer and I don't have any SS of me going 30-1 or nothing but I do ok if my group is decent. I'm not one of the better PvPer's, heck I'm not even one of the better CW on my server but I have gotten better.
Get your full PvP set and good enchants if you can. I don't have enchants slotted yet so I am limited in what I can do in PvP. Gear is very important, more so than I realized early on.
Great advice, Abandinus, some of my observations:
Agreed. Use At-Wills to break block, stay at range. Once block is down they are as squishy as anybody else.
My second toughest opponent. I can survive if I time the dodge right, but finishing them off requires timing and a little luck. You need to keep them thinking they will win until their health is low enough that you can CC them and then finish them off before they get free and stealth away. The problem is, sometimes they think right or dodge well and you are toast...
Disagree a little on this one. Whoever gets the LAST entangle is probably going to win. Of course, sometimes the last one is also the first one. It is not necessarily wise to blow EF first thing...
Toughest fight for me, 1 v 1, by far. Having strong movement buffs and using well-timed dodges while he's immune, staying away, and not getting knocked down are the keys. If you do everything perfectly, or he's not as skilled a player as he can be, you have a chance to get him CC'd when he's vulnerable and burn him down.
This fight, the Rogue, and the Guardian are the reasons I started this thread: they have more control 1 v 1 against me than I have against them!
Again, somewhat disagree. I find it better to wait until the Cleric is hurt, around half health, before applying CC/RoE; then burn him down when he desperately wants to heal himself, but can't.
Appreciate the advice!
1. If I'm lucky I dodge their EF blowing the CD which means I will most likely win.
2. I have Reapers Touch so I get 15% more dmg with at will when within 20'.