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Why the DF nerf is a good thing. TR needs more emphasis on Encounters.
gravethought
Member Posts: 31
The Duelist's Fury nerf is a step in the right direction. People can cry all they want about not being top damage anymore but in the end those things will work themselves out. What I want to talk about is the TR's reliance on Duelist's Fury to do damage. This is amplified by the quirky and nonsense mechanics that the bleed uses as well as how horrible our low cooldown encounters are at doing damage, and I want to talk about those.
Once you get to 10 stacks the bleeds damage gets "locked" using whatever self buffs you had active. It also decides to either crit every tick or decides not to. This lead to the following: A TR starts stacking bleeds then hits lurkers and utilizes every bonus imaginable, then cross his fingers and prays to whatever god he worships that the bleed crits. If it does the rest of the fight becomes "don't lose the bleed". The rest of the buttons on your bar might as well not be there because their influence on your damage is relatively meaningless (the wicked reminder debuff gets a excuse but this often falls off as the highest priority is DON'T LOSE THAT BLEED). It's also INCREDIBLY frustrating when the bleed doesn't crit, as you have to literally stop using DF and let the bleed fall off. Then you have to start all over. Let's face it good dps on a boss comes down to a coin flip.
So how can we fix this? First of all the bleeds damage needs to be updated in real time, and when lurker's is over the damage bonus should be lost. At the very least applying a new stack when you are at 10 should update the bleeds damage based on your current buffs. Next, each tick of the dot should roll crit individually. It should not be a coin flip whether or not you get a good bleed. With these two changes in place, TR damage would be less random but probably overall lower. Which brings me to my next biggy.....
BUFF ENCOUNTER DAMAGE
No not lashing blade. Blitz, Wicked reminder, etc. I know that power has been boosted on the test realm, but I was there and it is not enough. It will never be enough while DF has bad mechanics. Wicked reminder should be our go-to encounter in pve, we should be mashing it every chance we get, yet it is clunky with a sluggish animation and relatively low damage. The debuff is the only thing worth it. I'd also like to see the cylinder area increased so we can hit more targets, the current ones are so tiny that you have to have the mobs in a CW black hole to hit more than two targets.
Basically right now TR's are an auto-attack class in pve, and the only thing that matter is gimmick-boosting that auto-attack and riding the bleed for the rest of the fight. This is boring and horrible design, and as mentioned leads to huge dps swings based on luck.
Once you get to 10 stacks the bleeds damage gets "locked" using whatever self buffs you had active. It also decides to either crit every tick or decides not to. This lead to the following: A TR starts stacking bleeds then hits lurkers and utilizes every bonus imaginable, then cross his fingers and prays to whatever god he worships that the bleed crits. If it does the rest of the fight becomes "don't lose the bleed". The rest of the buttons on your bar might as well not be there because their influence on your damage is relatively meaningless (the wicked reminder debuff gets a excuse but this often falls off as the highest priority is DON'T LOSE THAT BLEED). It's also INCREDIBLY frustrating when the bleed doesn't crit, as you have to literally stop using DF and let the bleed fall off. Then you have to start all over. Let's face it good dps on a boss comes down to a coin flip.
So how can we fix this? First of all the bleeds damage needs to be updated in real time, and when lurker's is over the damage bonus should be lost. At the very least applying a new stack when you are at 10 should update the bleeds damage based on your current buffs. Next, each tick of the dot should roll crit individually. It should not be a coin flip whether or not you get a good bleed. With these two changes in place, TR damage would be less random but probably overall lower. Which brings me to my next biggy.....
BUFF ENCOUNTER DAMAGE
No not lashing blade. Blitz, Wicked reminder, etc. I know that power has been boosted on the test realm, but I was there and it is not enough. It will never be enough while DF has bad mechanics. Wicked reminder should be our go-to encounter in pve, we should be mashing it every chance we get, yet it is clunky with a sluggish animation and relatively low damage. The debuff is the only thing worth it. I'd also like to see the cylinder area increased so we can hit more targets, the current ones are so tiny that you have to have the mobs in a CW black hole to hit more than two targets.
Basically right now TR's are an auto-attack class in pve, and the only thing that matter is gimmick-boosting that auto-attack and riding the bleed for the rest of the fight. This is boring and horrible design, and as mentioned leads to huge dps swings based on luck.
Post edited by gravethought on
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you sir are horrible and didnt even read his message....
to the OP i agree our bleed should be updated real time and each tick should have the chance to tick... which from what i read the bleed will be reapplied when you use DF after the 10th stack. So you have 10 stacks you use DF its updated even if you dont let hte dot drop off.
What I do have issue with is that they just slapped a large nerf to DF instead of giving it a moderate nerf while buffing other abilities. As it stands, the only way TR was fulfilling its role as a striker was to take advantage of DFs higher than normal dps.
tl;dr: TR's had to use the overpowered DF ability to overcome the low baseline dps of their abilities. Nerfing DF was expected, but failing to add a significant buff to our other abilities is a mistake.
the increase that power adds to our base line encounters is awesome.... before i could on the dummy do 15 to 18k crit out of stealth with lashing blade.... i could take every piece of my armor off but my two weapons and still do 15 to 18k damage... it was all weapon damage based we hardly benefited from power at all. Now its not the case.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I actually liked the damage lock. it made it truly an attack that's only effective if you can be super aggressve and maintain it. even before the nerf, without any buff stacking on 10th bleed, DF was only slightly more dps than sly. now? if you do not buff stack your 10th bleed, you may as well use sly. that's how pathetic bleed tick rate is now
but yes, their encounters could use some reworking. lash and blitz are the only ones worth a **** for putting damage on the table, and even then, their contribution to our total damage was details, and utility abilities are pretty much always more desirable
deadly momentum definitely needed a fix though. never even knew it was +75% severity (I was scoundrel for pvp/pve versatility). I always thought dps rogues pulled a bit too far ahead of me mathematically...
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I agree. Our damage really comes from those bleeds. I think making us rely on duelist's flurry and bleeds for single target damage was intended though. We're a melee class that has to fight bosses with close ranged/AEO attacks. Dropping shadow strike and impossible to catch would hinder us a lot. We'd have to spec into things for better stamina if we lose impossible to catch, which also would make us lose dps time due to rolling or getting pushed. If we were to lose shadow strike we'd have to manually take adds every spawn over to the add groups or risk getting hit while someone picks the adds off of you (Again, losing DPS time). That leaves us with 1 encounter and an at-will with now, horrible bleed damage. Also having to dodge more without impossible to catch and being forced to move due to add attacks or bring adds to the add group risks losing our bleeds if not stacked high.
Yes, all of these classes needed to be nerfed, but not the way Cryptic did it. DF was OP but the bleed was too random. It was also HAMSTER how one of the early patches broke the bleed so that only 1 Rogue's bleed would count and not other Rogue(s) in the group. They finally fixed that garbage bug BUT they then made it so that 1 target could only get 10 stacks of bleed, regardless of how many Rogues are present... thus, gimping multiple Rogues in the same group yet again.
Post-nerf, I still do fine on my Rogue, but I'm also geared out. This nerf dropped my overall damage output by 20-25%, but I usually still come out on top of the damage charts, even ahead of geared out CWs sometimes. However, it's frustrating that I can't play my old style with 3 defensive Encounters and now I have to be more risky and take at least 1 offensive Encounter instead. Again, it also sucks that multiple Rogues in the same group are gimped because only of the 10 stack per target rule. The Power buff to our Encounters didn't offset the harsh nerf to Duelist's Flurry AND Deadly Momentum.
I agree with this up until your very last 2 words. Deadly momentum STATES that it gives 3/6/9/12/15% critical severity.
It was ACTUALLY giving you 15/30/45/60/75% .... that is not a nerf...that is called a FIX.
I think it would have been INFINITELY times better if:
They left duelist's flurry as was (except the part where it contributes 2 rogues bleeds to only 1 rogue)
---Make the bleed damage crit PER TICK OF THE BLEED!!! AND cause the newest bleed stack to replace the oldest bleed stack rather than the current "bleed lock" we have so that bleed damage is lowered BUT CONSISTENT!
....and just fixed deadly momentum
---Possibly tuning bleed damage somewhere along the line if it's consistent form proved to be terribly lower than its currently "zomg stack huge bleed win!" current format.
While ALSO improving our encounter skills ^^^ possibly to make up for bleed damage from above.
--Problem being, we generally tank bosses...so we need some defensive cooldowns, like has been mentioned, you need stealth to drop aggro on mobs, making shadow strike very close to required....and given we only have 2 dodges in a time frame...something to vastly improve stamina rate (maybe a remade feat to gain X% stamina per damage dealt?) so that we could drop our almost-necessary skill impossible to catch (being used as a 3rd dodge basically) and only leaving us with 1 offensive encounter to play with regardless of what build you go
I no longer run Deadly Momentum. While +15% Crit. Severity (fully stacked) is still nice, it's not nearly as good anymore. There are better Feats to put points into now.
To each their own i guess. I will forever call it a fix, and not a nerf.
When something is giving SIX TIMES!!!! it's intended and told values.... i call that broken, and so should anyone.
I'm so sorry you lost your "I win" button. I guess you'll have to try out the rest of the class now.
Or just other games.
I think rock-em-sock-em-robots is pretty similar to TR pre-nerf. They'd probably enjoy that one. Red is a bit OP though.
Use ItC for the higher dps up-time, not for the dodging.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
l2p. by the time you dodge every AE i facetank it with ItC and out-dps you. you call impossible to catch users lazy, i call them DPS machines.
Oh hey, some rando scrub GWF in here talking like he knows anything about Rogue and/or DF. Yeah, GWF is sooo hard to play. A 9 year old can play GWF. What do you do as a GWF? Pop Unstoppable and your other buffs and auto-attack. Real hard bro. You actually get rewarded for taking damage as GWF lol.
DF was never our "I win" button. In order to play a Rogue well, you need to dodge out of red stuff constantly, time your stealth correctly, keep a CRIT 10 stack of bleeds on mobs, help with CCs by using Smoke Bomb / Dazing Strike at the right times, constantly chase after mobs that CWs love to knock away, and oh... get rooted for 5 seconds (while doing all of the above) as the slow as f*ck DF winds up and hits.