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GWF Issues, and how to fix them:
spacejew
Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
Introduction:
There are three main points of failure for the GWF as a class that I will elaborate on below. I came to these conclusions after a lengthy think on all the things that fall short when playing a GWF compared to other popular classes. These are things that caused me to enjoy playing pretty much every class I've tried more than the GWF. I feel that the GWF does have potential, and if it works in your pre-made group of awesome players that's great for you. Most people don't have the option to power game all five members of their team.
Please recognize the above before posting that GWF is 'fine' because you max the DPS meter by clearing trash on your way to the boss fight. I once believed it was 'fine' too, and the drawbacks to the GWF don't present themselves until you reach T2. If you have not taken part in T2, or if you're leveling a GWF, please think before posting. I wish I had.
I thought a little about it after last nights rage post in this thread, and I think that these three main things are the biggest source of GWF rage.
Point One:
Unstoppable needs more customization. You need to be able to change it's duration, remove the damage debuff, or alter the attack rate/crit rate/damage buff that is provided (One, or all of them, depending on feat tree). These need to be feats embedded very high on the feat tree for each class. I'll go into what needs to be removed from the feat tree's to make room for these new feats in point 3.
You can already change the way, and the speed, that you gain Determination but that is an utterly boring thing to change and it requires you to skip out on DPS class skills that are pretty much required to not be #4 on every dungeon chart. The only significant way Determination gain is changed is by taking the Destroyer cap, which is probably the worst tree out of the three, or by skipping DPS class skills for determination skills that are completely and utterly underwhelming in every way, shape, and form outside of PvP.
Unstoppable should function by gaining determination from damage for each and every feat tree, and it should be based on damage. Leave Determination generation from being hit alone, but it needs to generate on doing damage too.
Point Two:
Marks need to stop falling off when the GWF is hit. The feat for improved marks needs to be moved very high in the Sentinel feat tree so that DPS Instigator/Destroyers can not reach it and have their cap. They will also miss out on some of the bonuses in point 3.
The reason I say that marks need to stop falling off is because they are literally useless as-is. You might get one or two hits in on a marked target. The duration is pretty long otherwise, and that upper duration on marks needs to be lowered to account for the new function. GWF are intended to be hit, there is no way around that, and marks falling off on being hit feels like you're being punished for doing what you're supposed to do. There is also no effective way to stop add's that have aggro on someone else from chasing them in order to take advantage of your marks. Come and Get It combined with Not So Fast does not slow the targets enough to take aggro.
Since GWF can't block or dodge out of the way effectively there is no way to maintain marks in the current game or in the test server. I'm thinking 5 or 6 seconds is reasonable for a 15% damage increase in the tanking tree. The IBS marks might need their own duration and behavior for DPS GWF, but to be utterly honest marks should probably just be removed from IBS completely. They're unreliable, short lived, and don't add much to overall DPS. You could excise them completely and probably never notice.
They need to be there to help Sentinel's with gear centered around defense/deflect do more damage for aggro. That's it. In the same vein, the Instigator cap needs to be changed as well. Nothing in the GWF feat tree's should disappear when you are hit. If anything, you should get bonuses for being hit since that is what is required to use your class skill. This is the biggest design failure of the GWF, and it's why I say there is very little synergy. You are literally punished for using your class skill, or for even attempting to use your class skill.
Point Three:
Feats need to be changed around to have less synergy with individual Dailies and Encounters and more synergy with changing Unstoppable. As things currently stand, you absolutely must have slam as one of your dailies. It doesn't matter what tree you feated into, they all use Slam. This is some of the most lazy class design I've seen among the classes. There is no way you can use any other Daily in any situation. Sure, you can pop Crescendo but why on earth would you when Slam outperforms literally every other option you could possibly use in any situation. It's that bad, and yes it is that boring.
Even CW can get away without using Arcane Singularity, even if people would complain they can ignore it. There is no way any GWF can ignore Slam. It is impossible. This dovetails into Slam being an incredibly boring ability no matter which tree you feat into. GWF, more than the TR or CW at the very least, is limited to certain abilities within their feat tree. This is true in the form of their at-wills, their encounters, and even their dailies. After you pick a feat tree, the abilities you will use are set in stone for all intents and purposes. You don't need to remove all the encounter and daily synergy, but most of it needs to go if the GWF is ever going to be played by more than a minority of masochists and PvP fanatics.
Conclusion
If the balance changes posted on the test server are all that changes before a ranger or warlock is released, you will never see or hear from GWF again. Since I sincerely doubt Cryptic is going to take a second look at balance patching before they start cranking out new classes, I think the decision to reroll is probably the only solution.
If you really love the GWF and feel it's working fine as-is then kudos to you. I will never play in a group with GWF again if I can reasonably help it past T1 dungeons. I don't care if you're consistently #1 or #2 on the damage charts, every bit of the GWF damage is pad damage from trash add's that the CW could have handled without you. There is nothing in the balance patch that makes CW less able to deal damage, as a matter of fact they are fixing Chill so that it works on crowd control immune mobs I.E. bosses. If anything, it's going to make it even worse on GWF since the AoE DPS CW tree is being fixed to function on CC immune add's and bosses.
Betcha missed that little detail in the patch notes didn't you? I know I almost did, but it's there. Plain as day.
There are three main points of failure for the GWF as a class that I will elaborate on below. I came to these conclusions after a lengthy think on all the things that fall short when playing a GWF compared to other popular classes. These are things that caused me to enjoy playing pretty much every class I've tried more than the GWF. I feel that the GWF does have potential, and if it works in your pre-made group of awesome players that's great for you. Most people don't have the option to power game all five members of their team.
Please recognize the above before posting that GWF is 'fine' because you max the DPS meter by clearing trash on your way to the boss fight. I once believed it was 'fine' too, and the drawbacks to the GWF don't present themselves until you reach T2. If you have not taken part in T2, or if you're leveling a GWF, please think before posting. I wish I had.
I thought a little about it after last nights rage post in this thread, and I think that these three main things are the biggest source of GWF rage.
Point One:
Unstoppable needs more customization. You need to be able to change it's duration, remove the damage debuff, or alter the attack rate/crit rate/damage buff that is provided (One, or all of them, depending on feat tree). These need to be feats embedded very high on the feat tree for each class. I'll go into what needs to be removed from the feat tree's to make room for these new feats in point 3.
You can already change the way, and the speed, that you gain Determination but that is an utterly boring thing to change and it requires you to skip out on DPS class skills that are pretty much required to not be #4 on every dungeon chart. The only significant way Determination gain is changed is by taking the Destroyer cap, which is probably the worst tree out of the three, or by skipping DPS class skills for determination skills that are completely and utterly underwhelming in every way, shape, and form outside of PvP.
Unstoppable should function by gaining determination from damage for each and every feat tree, and it should be based on damage. Leave Determination generation from being hit alone, but it needs to generate on doing damage too.
Point Two:
Marks need to stop falling off when the GWF is hit. The feat for improved marks needs to be moved very high in the Sentinel feat tree so that DPS Instigator/Destroyers can not reach it and have their cap. They will also miss out on some of the bonuses in point 3.
The reason I say that marks need to stop falling off is because they are literally useless as-is. You might get one or two hits in on a marked target. The duration is pretty long otherwise, and that upper duration on marks needs to be lowered to account for the new function. GWF are intended to be hit, there is no way around that, and marks falling off on being hit feels like you're being punished for doing what you're supposed to do. There is also no effective way to stop add's that have aggro on someone else from chasing them in order to take advantage of your marks. Come and Get It combined with Not So Fast does not slow the targets enough to take aggro.
Since GWF can't block or dodge out of the way effectively there is no way to maintain marks in the current game or in the test server. I'm thinking 5 or 6 seconds is reasonable for a 15% damage increase in the tanking tree. The IBS marks might need their own duration and behavior for DPS GWF, but to be utterly honest marks should probably just be removed from IBS completely. They're unreliable, short lived, and don't add much to overall DPS. You could excise them completely and probably never notice.
They need to be there to help Sentinel's with gear centered around defense/deflect do more damage for aggro. That's it. In the same vein, the Instigator cap needs to be changed as well. Nothing in the GWF feat tree's should disappear when you are hit. If anything, you should get bonuses for being hit since that is what is required to use your class skill. This is the biggest design failure of the GWF, and it's why I say there is very little synergy. You are literally punished for using your class skill, or for even attempting to use your class skill.
Point Three:
Feats need to be changed around to have less synergy with individual Dailies and Encounters and more synergy with changing Unstoppable. As things currently stand, you absolutely must have slam as one of your dailies. It doesn't matter what tree you feated into, they all use Slam. This is some of the most lazy class design I've seen among the classes. There is no way you can use any other Daily in any situation. Sure, you can pop Crescendo but why on earth would you when Slam outperforms literally every other option you could possibly use in any situation. It's that bad, and yes it is that boring.
Even CW can get away without using Arcane Singularity, even if people would complain they can ignore it. There is no way any GWF can ignore Slam. It is impossible. This dovetails into Slam being an incredibly boring ability no matter which tree you feat into. GWF, more than the TR or CW at the very least, is limited to certain abilities within their feat tree. This is true in the form of their at-wills, their encounters, and even their dailies. After you pick a feat tree, the abilities you will use are set in stone for all intents and purposes. You don't need to remove all the encounter and daily synergy, but most of it needs to go if the GWF is ever going to be played by more than a minority of masochists and PvP fanatics.
Conclusion
If the balance changes posted on the test server are all that changes before a ranger or warlock is released, you will never see or hear from GWF again. Since I sincerely doubt Cryptic is going to take a second look at balance patching before they start cranking out new classes, I think the decision to reroll is probably the only solution.
If you really love the GWF and feel it's working fine as-is then kudos to you. I will never play in a group with GWF again if I can reasonably help it past T1 dungeons. I don't care if you're consistently #1 or #2 on the damage charts, every bit of the GWF damage is pad damage from trash add's that the CW could have handled without you. There is nothing in the balance patch that makes CW less able to deal damage, as a matter of fact they are fixing Chill so that it works on crowd control immune mobs I.E. bosses. If anything, it's going to make it even worse on GWF since the AoE DPS CW tree is being fixed to function on CC immune add's and bosses.
Betcha missed that little detail in the patch notes didn't you? I know I almost did, but it's there. Plain as day.
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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Comments
The only other way I could see fixing class stacking is to do a DR system similar to WoW that would make it stupid to take more than one of a certain class or to make it so knocking mobs off cliffs is no longer a thing.
It's an even deeper problem than that. The fact of the matter is that there are two separate classes within Control Wizard. There is the Arcane focused CW and the Chill focused CW. Ignoring the problem of ledge knocking, as there are plenty of fights where this is a non issue, there's still the problem that CW can stack two different things with two different builds.
If you want to get really crazy, there's also the fact that an arcane CW can play off the chill CW's stacks. Is it stupid there are two discrete classes within Control Wizard when using both of them make GWF inconsequential? Yes, yes it is.
Essentially it's a complete design failure that can't be fixed, so it won't be fixed. I only wrote the above as a game plan if Cryptic gets their rears in gear, but to be utterly honest this is stuff that should have been addressed far before the game got to an 'open beta' or 'launch' footing.
With half the feats, class skills, and abilities not working even as Cryptic intended them for any of the current classes I feel that it's pretty much a lost cause for the GWF for at least six months to a year. This is why I suggest rerolling now, it will allow you to enjoy Neverwinter for the foreseeable future, whereas GWF will just result in you rage quitting the game if you play it long enough.
Also, to fuel further discussion along these lines...
I included the following as part of a post in another thread, and since this topic does put some emphasis on the importance of improving and diversifying Unstoppable as a mechanic, I will copy-pasta it here for further thought and feedback:
---
Conceivably it might be nice to add bonus effects to various Encounters if we're Unstoppable at the time we're using them. (Since Encounters don't seem to get any faster or stronger during Unstoppable, I suppose it's currently preferable not to use ANY encounters during Unstoppable unless we must -- this could change that for the better.) Some example bonuses:
Daring Shout -> briefly weakens enemy offense if used while unstoppable.
Come and Get It -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Not So Fast -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Takedown -> sends out a small AoE shockwave that knocks down the primary target and up to 4 other nearby targets, if used while unstoppable.
Mighty Leap -> animates faster and briefly stuns up to 5 targets in its radius, if used while unstoppable.
Roar -> the pushback component is much stronger if used while unstoppable.
Etc.
There's any number of things that could be done to help the encounters, and implementing many of them as bonus effects on Unstoppable seems like a reasonable move.
Focusing on having Unstoppable add more CC or utility to our encounters (rather than just doing more damage) would also give us interesting decisions to make: keep At-Willing during Unstoppable for the heightened DPS, or throw in some encounters as well for extra CC or other utility? Since a game is a series of interesting choices, this seems to be a good idea from that perspective as well.
This is one of the reasons I feel the feat tree's themselves should focus more on how Unstoppable works and less emphasis on locking the player into using the same rotation forever. It's boring, ineffective, and limits player skill by an inordinate amount.
I have a GF as well and I think I may play that for a while whilst we wait to see how everything checks out at launch. I more than likely will roll up a CW only because the wait for a ranger and/or warlock looks to be a long one.
I agree that adding this versatility to our unstoppable would also make us a more viable option, however, it would still make a CW outclass us as they don't have to depend on being hit to gen there tab. As jew states with the current loadout of CW's it makes playing a GWF obsolete. Well see if raiding changes their position at all. As in all games though there will always be the good guy playing the odd class, but they will be few and far between.
The temporary HP added onto Unstoppable is proof in my mind that the developers have literally no vision for the Great Weapon Fighter. They are just trying stuff, and hoping some of the $#1t sticks in the gaps.
What metric were they looking at that said GWF didn't have enough HP?
EDIT:
I haven't posted my personal views on how GWF needs to be changed before today because I wasn't really sure what needed to change. I've seen lots of very specific idea's on what could or should be done to make it a more interesting class, but none of them really seemed to address my core concerns. The OP post is the end result of weeks of tinkering and playing around. I'm not going to put down hard numbers or exact feat changes because I'm not a game designer. If Cryptic wants to hire me to implement class changes I'd jump, but that ain't gonna happen. I've probably pissed off the developers with my constant complaining, but I want to make it clear I don't hate or dislike them at all. They make great games, it's just that those games always have big glaring problems that never really get sorted out.
It's undeniable that what they've come out with in Neverwinter is unique and interesting. I only QQ and complain like I do because it's so close to a really great game, but falls short in a lot of individual technical area's that add up to big issues.
If this would have been a subscription game with a lifetime purchase option for 200$ I'd have bought it, and still would even knowing what I know now.
Speaking from experience(hundreds of T2/CN runs) when CW's cannot be credited with 'Massive Damage'(the mechanic that grants full damage equal to the health of a mob that is thrown off a ledge) they are far from top AoE damage. That falls down to the GF/GWF.
We're getting a nice myriad of buffs next patch and TR's are getting their single target dropped tremendously with duelist's flurry ticking half as often and no longer taking a snapshot of current modifiers so holding a 40k/second bleed will no longer be possible.
I'm a big fan of Unstoppable in its current form, it allows us to eat a lot of AoE's that rogues have to roll from and GF's have to block. Having played a lot of GF I feel the GWF has the edge on survivability being able to animation cancel out of abilities with sprint and good utilization of mighty leap(has no target cap also) for uptime means that most the time I'll finish the dungeon with 0 deaths/falls.
I know i'll probably catch a lot of flak for this, but I've also played with other GWF's that are capable of playing the class to the fullest(top damage after a wipe-less CN run, every wipe on draco the TR/CW pulls ahead) - if you can't make yourself useful to the group in the current state of the class then no amount of changes will help you.
We have the best survivability, the best or at the very least top tier AoE damage and gimped(next patch, mediocre) single target damage. That is called balance, neverwinter is full of masses of mobs both in and out of boss fights. All you need is a competent CW that singularities properly and you can eat your heart out.
I'm sorry but after the 20th, if that's not good enough for you then you should seriously consider rerolling TR or CW. You can theory craft on class reworks until the cows come home but the gravity of the situation is that we're not even remotely close to being in as bad of a situation as people, mostly having no end-game experience, claim.
My question to you is this, have you played any other class outside of GWF to compare your skill to what you would be capable of on another class?
Sub question, have you run without a GWF in dungeons if you do have another class to compare yourself with? Disregarding dual DC, as it's being removed, do you feel that running with a GWF is worthwhile over taking two CW?
Why, or why not? I'm curious what add's you're tanking when one CW can perma-singularity and two can perma-singularity in a field of DoT both before and after the patch.
How do you know that GWF does significantly more AoE damage than a CW if you've never run a dungeon without add knocking? Have you run it without knocking the add's off? If so, what was the end difference with your equally skilled CW?
Also, you failed utterly to read the first paragraph of my OP
I assume that if you've successfully run Castle Never hundreds of times that you're playing with a premade group of skilled Guild members. I also assume they are carrying you as it is patently impossible to carry a group as a GWF, although it is possible to carry a group on a TR or CW. I know that much from experience too.
This line in particular is what makes me think you don't know diddly. A CW can take advantage of their Singularity better than you can, and they do it in such a way that they kill all the add's except perhaps a few elite stragglers with back-to-back dailies that do not have any target cap at all. I'm sure the five add's you were beating on die first. I'm sure that matters, as the best you can hope for is to finish off that last quarter HP on the five remaining elites.
Finally, since CW can hit all the add's but do less damage, two blow the lid off any hope that the GWF could compete even doing less damage. It doesn't split, hits all the targets, and can be chained in such a way that all the add's are helpless the entire time.
Anything that is CC immune the TR burns alive.
We normally run 1 DC, so no 2 DC cheese. As to your question about add knocking, the first 70% of CN has no ledges to knock mobs off so singularity is used to stack mobs up into corners to be mowed down by AoE. I've played with good and bad players of every class, they all have their role to play and never have I felt carried.
I can maybe agree with adding unstoppable interaction to instigator and sentinel trees as I only play destroyer. Most the stuff I've said is based around the high mob density in CN which is a design philosophy that might change in the future, but CN and Gauntlgrym is all we're going to have for a few months until Module 1.
With TR's being toned down with the launch patch the only real elephant in the room would be scenarios where CW's can continuously group and push mobs off ledges for the majority of a dungeon because their raw AoE damage really isn't something special. I would be surprised if that hasn't been noted by the developers for future dungeons though.
I don't want to come across as an apologist for the sake of being an apologist because I know a lot of GWF's are having trouble getting into groups but the bulk of that is pure stigma. With AS no longer stacking and the patch notes for GWF basically reading as "buff buff buff buff buff" then hopefully public opinion will change.
I'm not saying other things don't need to be fixed...there are a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of topics needed to be addressed with the GWF. The unstoppable suggestions listed above actually sound very dynamic and fun, other topics include buffing destroyer tree (going to be basically unused after patch), an over-all buff to reaping strike (some time reduced off it's charge time, it's way to friggen long), a fix to the unstoppable/reaping strike bug. Another big thing I really hope gets changed down the road is more single target damage... People like to say "oh destroyer is a single target spec", and to all the people who say this, please uninstall. The single-target damage produced is still pathetic in destroyer spec, you're still an AoE class/spec. I'm not saying the single target damage should be on the level on rogues, but it definitely could use some adjustments to not make GWF's seem like they're hitting with a wet-noodle in single target fights (speaking purely pve here, i know the stun-lock build in pvp is quite OP). I strongly suggest a buff to GWF's single target encounter's damage... or maybe some kind of dynamic change that would affect their single target damage related to unstoppable/spec used somehow.
But nevertheless, unless the issue in my first paragraph is fixed, GWFs will not be invited to future content, ever. You could make any other changes you want, but as long as you have control wizards knocking adds off edges all day, the GWF role in a dungeon is shot out the window.
So you don't even acknowledge that two CW can perma-control add's while burning them? It's cool that it works for you and your group, I'm sure top tier players can make GWF ok. I wasn't trying to imply you cheese things with dual DC, I was simply discounting it from the equation. My issue is that CW is a better version of GWF in literally every respect when paired with another CW. The non-diminishing, uncapped damage of their abilities are simply better. It's the control/DPS equivalent of stacking DC rings, and you didn't ever need the dual rings to run two CW. The add's are stunned, in the air, frozen, and on fire with two CW.
If you can't admit that two stacked DoT's combined with two massive control classes out performs the piddling target capped, diminishing damage on GWF that's your business. It's not that GWF is completely non-viable, it's that there's another better option out there.
Basically you'll see what I mean about halfway into next month when GWF is still not taken into pug T2/CN. Guilds, and skilled premades, are another animal but even then you would no doubt perform better with two CW and no GWF.
How can you say that when you admit that what you previously preached before today was wrong due to inexperience, it's pure conjecture. It's also wrong, one good control wizard can permanently singularity back to back, the fastest castle runs actually involve 1 of each class. Very few classes have skills that don't have a target cap, ours is mighty leap.
I don't know if you've actually played a CW(sure doesn't seem like it) but singularity has a 2s channel time and the majority of their good damage dealing skills have target caps too.
It's really hard to take you seriously when you won't concede any points based on what you "think" is right.
The more expierence I get, the less viable GWF becomes. That's just how it is.
The 'majority of their good skills have caps' isn't true. Steal Time? No cap. Shield? No cap. Singularity? No cap. Conduit of Ice? No cap. Icy Terrain? No cap. Sudden Storm? No cap.
Three second channel on Arcane Singularity? Yeah, and how long does it last after the channel? Enough time to do three or four encounters.
How many of your uncapped dailies can you chain together? None? Oh well.
You are right they cannot be credited with all the damage they actually do because of the toss, but even when they do not toss they are still WAY beyond GWF in dps (No target caps) in addition they are getting some really nice buffs (fixes) and will go even higher on their AOE add in the control and bam you have what a GWF could only dream of.
The problems i have with Unstoppable in its patched form are it does not build from doing damage (without capstone) and you have to be half dead to use it without being babysat by the DC or chugging pots like a drunk in a whiskey distillery. Finally the fact that for some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> reason it DROPS our damage, so without tons of crit it is hurting us for dps and if you went full tank you lack the crit.
Yes you will catch flak for this, in a game where min/maxing is king doing mediocre at everything is worthless. They sort of have a roll in group, that is if you gimp another class to bring all the mobs together for them, don't bring a better AOE (read 5 target limit and low rotating damage to more than 5 targets) class that has control, or just another tank.
Yes STACKING 2 TR got nerfed but the class itself will still 3x-4x out damage the best GWF out there, which is sad considering that A. GWF were billed as a giant damage dealing sword class that could somewhat tank if needed, and B. they are a SINGLE target dps vs we (the supposed kings of AOE) and they outdamage us in runs? How is this possible? the only way they could do this is if they did 16x our actual damage. Think about it if you do say 10 million on a run and a TR does 22 (I'm being generous or its a crappy TR vs you) your hitting 5 mobs vs his hitting 1 mob .... that means he has to in 1 hit do so much more damage single target than your AOE that there is no conceivable reason you could say you are balanced. in 1 hit you should do at LEAST triple his damage to those 5 mobs that he can to the 1 that would mean you are only doing doing what 60 percent of his damage. As is his one hit is out parsing your 5 hits explain that.
You are myopic. CW got a buff in their chill AoE spec that pairs better with another arcane CW than GWF does for both more damage and more control.
Stacking cleric circles isn't required right now on live, but if you don't you better bring two CW. It's true now, and nothing changes it from the patch.
CW still does better with half their class options and feats being completely broken. Each time Cryptic fixes something that isn't working right on CW, it brings CW further and further ahead of GWF. Guess which spec was fixed in the patch? That's right, the AoE DPS CW spec. The single target CW took a hit, while AoE got a buff. Who does that hurt in the meta game?
TR's got straight up nerfed, stacking or no stacking they're losing a good chunk of single target damage next patch especially the ones that know how to hold a good bleed. They're strikers, they should be doing at least 2x our single target damage because they have no AoE, that's balance. You're still way overplaying the AoE a CW is capable of, if they remove the target cap on our at-wills then we'll hands down be leagues above anything else for AoE.
I'd be really interested in seeing a CW build that has more AoE potential than an WMS cancelling GWF, I don't think it's possible but I'll entertain the idea that i've only ever played with bad control wizards.
It's that you're playing a GWF at all. You can't see the flaws until you look it from the outside. It's effort vs. reward. You are rewarded more for less effort running two CW. You can deny this, but since you haven't answered even my first question of if you've played any other class in end game I have to assume you haven't really looked it from the outside.
TR's are doing FARRRR more then 2x our single target damage. They out damage, only attacking 1 target, why we're attacking 5 or more constantly the entire dungeon. That just screams wrong.
I don't care about TR. They are a striker class, they should out DPS a GWF by several factors at the end of a dungeon.
It's the fact that GWF is solely an AoE DPS class, but it's AoE DPS isn't backed by any meaningful utility that isn't exceed by several factors by a CW. Even the raw DPS output of a GWF is capped. The more add's you fight, the further ahead the CW pulls given that you can build solely for the uncapped abilities.
The only use for a GWF that I can envision in dungeons is to pull mobs for the CW to control and kill. It was the same deal in City of Heroes. Pull everything, kill it all at once. GWF is only superior if you're fighting the exact cap that GWF can hit. Anything above that and CW pulls ahead by several factors.
This is exactly why people say GWF slow down runs. You can't pull as many add's and kill them in time to survive. You can with two CW.
EDIT:
Think of it like this. So GWF can't match a TR's single target damage, they don't even come close. We agree on that much right? So why is it a CW is able to even get close to matching a GWF's AoE DPS? You can't realistically tell me that you're out DPSing a CW by the same factor that a TR out damages a GWF. This is true even in dungeons where ledge tossing is not an option. The CW brings their own ledge, it's called Arcane Singularity.
So your saying another damage dealing class doing so much more that our hitting 5 mobs at once (remember this is cap) doesn't add up to them hitting 1? Remember GWF are supposed to be DAMAGE first tank secondary.
From official wiki
Great Weapon Fighter
Role:
Damage Dealer
Secondary Defender
Control Wizard
Role:
Controller
Trickster Rogue
Role:
Striker
Something look broken to you?
Have you played with any CW that are building damage vs punting? I've been playing on test they out dps us on everything prepatch and by a ton post patch. Even vs our cap of 5 mobs (no group wants to go this slow) they out dps us if specced for damage. Soon as you add one more mob they start pulling even further ahead by leaps and bounds.
Its funny that you keep stating about the skill cancel at this point in time, its a bug that the devs just don't care about because they have so much more on their plate, so once its "fixed" what will you say? Bring the bug back? Or only then will you see the class for how broken it is? If they billed the class as a TANK first with low damage I personally would never have played him. I would have made a GF.
Effort = Reward
Right now the amount of Effort you put in for CW is low and the amount of reward you get is high. To get a good reward with GWF one must put in far more effort. I refer to it as playing the class optimally BUT why would I when I can just be a CW? See what he's saying now?
A better way to put it, for those of you that play League. Why would I play Syndra, the APC with the highest burst level 6 burst, when I can just bring Lux or Orianna? Sure, they may not have as much burst but they're easier and their utility is more valuable than Syndra's burst. CW has utility, burst and is easier. People will flock to it.
The fact that GWF have to fall back to combo cancelling to even come close to matching the control classes damage is point-and-game right there.
Maybe we're all wrong. Maybe combo cancel is completely intended. Maybe GWF is intended to require 3x the effort for half the output. If so it's just more proof that rerolling is your best option.
The best part? They can't fix the CW target cap issue. The very nature of CW relies on it hitting everything. (I.E. knockback on shield for survival soloing.) A five target cap for CW isn't realistic, but as keobiaa pointed out if you raise the target cap for GWF it runs dangerously close to over powered. This leaves the GWF in an utter limbo of usefulness. They can't even reduce the damage values on some of CW's abilities, nor can they make them diminishing vs. targets hit.
It's a lose-lose scenario for Cryptic. The best thing for them to do, as keobiaa has indirectly pointed out, is for them to do nothing. There will be people that are incapable of seeing the shortcomings of the class, who can still beat the content, and will probably be surprised when no one outside of their premade or guild group will take them along in speed runs. (Not exploit speed runs, actual defeating mob speed runs.)
@agbadehan:
Yep, nail on the head.
[21:37] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Arcane Singularity deals 1020 (1192) Arcane to Cutthroat.
Yeah, that on 30 add's. This is just at level 45.
And for some reason Slam can't crit? Please.
Huh, they changed AS to allow critting? Is this on preview?
CWs have plenty of skills that don't crit as well, which sadly restricts the number of useful skills (dps) to a select few. At least 3 aoe encounters, which are also unaffected by aoe damage passives. Which GWFs don't even have, lol.