Clearly all of you are merely playing GWF wrong. Here's how you play GWF properly. Roll a GF, don't equip a shield.
LOL I see that you found one of my other threads. Care to weigh in on my ideas in this one? Would implementing even some of my changes make the class more fun/rewarding to play?
LOL I see that you found one of my other threads. Care to weigh in on my ideas in this one? Would implementing even some of my changes make the class more fun/rewarding to play?
I'm actually having a ball on my shield-less GF. On the topic of GWF, unstoppable-centric gameplay with ways to augment the way one utilizes unstoppable would be really nice, not unlike the way TR is focused on stealth. First, of course, I think general issues with dungeons (throwing adds off the stage) and threat should be fixed before we start throwing major changes around but y'all are definitely heading in a good direction.
Thank you for your well-reasoned feedback, tursio. Would you agree with me in that we as a class need changes, not buffs, in order to operate better? For example, if you were able to mark/KD more often wouldn't that help you peel the bad guys off of your cleric? If you had more target cap, could you be more effective at offtanking without introducing huge damage boosts, assuming that we had more CC available in almost all of our encounter powers as I propose?
Some things that would help me:
(1) having some way to break free of being prone (or at least stand up from it much faster) once I've been afflicted by it.
(2) making Unstoppable truly block all CC/knockback/everything entirely instead of only half-stopping certain KB effects while totally stopping others.
(3) Having an AoE stun or knockdown (Takedown and Flourish are only very situationally useful to me in PvE atm -- it's almost never just one mob trying to tear my cleric's face off, and if it is just one mob, that mob is immune to CC. Currently I only get to use Takedown to help with CC-locking Erineyes and other strategically important casters, and I feel about 20,000 leagues behind CWs and even TRs in that capacity.)
Oddly enough I don't really feel like the At-Wills need a dramatic increase to their target cap (though something like 7 or 8 mobs max instead of 5 would be nice if they really do feel the need to design fights to have 20+ adds on the field at once). I do wish more of my AoE encounters and dailies could hit more than 5 targets though. Being able to Not So Fast an entire swarm (or at least more of it than it seems I currently can) would be helpful.
Being able to mark more often would be useful. Or at least have the marks mean more than they currently do if they're going to be so painfully restricted in terms of condition (can't let the mob hit you) and duration (it's not that long compared to the cooldowns involved).
Conceivably it might be nice to add bonus effects to various Encounters if we're Unstoppable at the time we're using them. (Since Encounters don't seem to get any faster or stronger during Unstoppable, I suppose it's currently preferable not to use ANY encounters during Unstoppable unless we must -- this could change that for the better.) Some example bonuses:
Daring Shout -> briefly weakens enemy offense if used while unstoppable.
Come and Get It -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Not So Fast -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Takedown -> sends out a small AoE shockwave that knocks down the primary target and up to 4 other nearby targets, if used while unstoppable.
Mighty Leap -> animates faster and briefly stuns up to 5 targets in its radius, if used while unstoppable.
Roar -> the pushback component is much stronger if used while unstoppable.
Etc.
There's any number of things that could be done to help the encounters, and implementing many of them as bonus effects on Unstoppable seems like a reasonable move.
Focusing on having Unstoppable add more CC or utility to our encounters (rather than just doing more damage) would also give us interesting decisions to make: keep At-Willing during Unstoppable for the heightened DPS, or throw in some encounters as well for extra CC or other utility? Since a game is a series of interesting choices, this seems to be a good idea from that perspective as well.
Game needs to separate PvP changes from PvE changes because a lot of these changes seem really juicy and then I think of the sick PvP implications. I know, I know. This is not a PvP game but did rogues not just get nerfed over performance in PvP?
I honestly think that the full rogue nerf for their bleeds isn't going to go through like it is on the test server. The SE nerf will most likely stay, though. The reason I'm saying the bleed won't get such a nerf is because it is obviously bugged right now on the test shard. Yes, it's nerfed, but it's also stacking 11 times instead of ten and falling off inexplicably for no reason. So the devs will need to do some more work on that mechanic anyway, and with the backlash over the numbers for their crit severity and so on, expect a rework of bleeds in general.
But that is small potatoes compared to what the GWF needs to get done. LOL
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ator22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited June 2013
I am level 51 and hoping that the Devs are listening to what most of you are saying on here. I have switched at one point to a TR just to see if I was crazy about how the GWF was sucking and low and behold I was not crazy. I am going to stick with the GWF and do my daily prayers that someone is listening that can make some changes. I really enjoy the game but things like investing many hours into a class that ends up being sub-par in the end really can shape how a player invest their time. I am remaining hopeful for now for all of us.
I am level 51 and hoping that the Devs are listening to what most of you are saying on here. I have switched at one point to a TR just to see if I was crazy about how the GWF was sucking and low and behold I was not crazy.
I did the same thing... to see what all the hubbub was about. Right from the get-go, my eyes were popping at how much performance the TR has over us. Just really, really a world of difference... SOOOOO much better.
That's why when I see people post how the GWF is just fine and everything is good I just kinda smile and shake my head. And it motivates me to get in here at the barracks and make some noise. Because, honestly guys... the difference is night and day.
If you remove our target cap from at-wills, we will be propelled so far ahead of the other classes on AoE that it's not even funny. If you go through castle without wiping, it's really not hard to pull respectable damage numbers and sit competitively on 1st-3rd place.
To the guy saying that we're the best tank in the game because we can stack 8000 health and 5000 defense, I have to ask - why on earth would anyone do that. What are you going to tank? It's a redundant role in neverwinter.
You are thinking about present day, but the patch is only 8 days away and then everything changes. CWs will get flattened if they try to play the same way as they do now when the patch rolls around. An add tank will be needed... that is your role people. Stop looking at the current build that we all know and understand is gimped and instead look ahead.
GWFs are hybrids with a role of being an add tank. You aren't strikers, you aren't barbarians. Start building up a real tanking set and then people will view you as useful. The dynamic will be shifting for everyone.
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ator22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited June 2013
Well I never wanted to be an add tank and the description written for the GWF by Neverwinter was a flat out lie then. I will wait for the ranger class to come along then give NW their last chance to get it right from "my" perspective. I have a hard time believing that all the reports I have read from the test server are wrong and that GWF are going to fine. Statistically, those who feel that the GWF is fine are wrong.
You are thinking about present day, but the patch is only 8 days away and then everything changes. CWs will get flattened if they try to play the same way as they do now when the patch rolls around. An add tank will be needed... that is your role people. Stop looking at the current build that we all know and understand is gimped and instead look ahead.
GWFs are hybrids with a role of being an add tank. You aren't strikers, you aren't barbarians. Start building up a real tanking set and then people will view you as useful. The dynamic will be shifting for everyone.
Hmm... that's not what's being said in the library. The CWs are biatching about getting PVP nerfed, but PVE is staying the same. They will continue to dominate mob control and now their DPS numbers vs. a TR is getting closer after the bleed gets sorted out.
The patch is not going to change much for us, I'm afraid. As I said in the OP, we need more than a couple of tweaks.
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
Hmm... that's not what's being said in the library. The CWs are biatching about getting PVP nerfed, but PVE is staying the same. They will continue to dominate mob control and now their DPS numbers vs. a TR is getting closer after the bleed gets sorted out.
The patch is not going to change much for us, I'm afraid. As I said in the OP, we need more than a couple of tweaks.
OK I'm sorry I normally don't say anything but I'm tired of the under 60's *****ing about GWF. GWF is a great class for mob control and OT you can take a punch and unstoppable makes it so you can sit on mobs in situations were most have to roll away. Target caps blow but with the frequency of our hits and our versatility of aoe and mobility we are able to get from mob to mob much faster than any other class aside from a bad shadowstepper. I have played the preview shard and I can honestly tell you that the GWF with all the buffs we are getting will top the meters IF you know how to play them well. Couple things people arent including in there *****ing is the fact that our encounters now have a reduced CD which will increase our dps tenfold also WS got a buff and with the new threat generation and unstoppable youll be getting hit a lot more enabling you to keep unstoppable up constantly. I promise if you are playing the class right with current content, then with the next patch you will be a god.
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited June 2013
the basic premise is learn to play the class as is. To maximize your overall potential quit trying to min max your overall, and find a balanced build that utilizes multiple class abilities and enables you to be an asset rather than a liability.
Thanks for your input, marshmallow... so everything is fine for you. Did you solo to 60? Also, are you using sprint cancel to keep up with the other classes? Just curious.
Marsh i have played on test shard and guess what? GWF are still useless, go play in a t2 dungeon what happens on test? PUNT mobs, control mobs, CW AOE the mobs down 4x as fast as a GWF if no other choice. The CD on mostly useless skills got buffed. The meta is leaning to, 1 GF / 1 TR / 1 DC / 2 CW .... notice something? What is the class i did not say? and now that TR and DC are getting nerfed it means they can not afford to carry a GWF anymore. Stop with the **** brown nosing we as a class need to be reworked badly, people that are spouting the nonsense " WE OK, WE OK, WE OK you want my nose further in?" are doing nothing but hurting the class. GF *****ed moaned and complained as an ENTIRE community and look what happened? The class got some nice buffs. Sadly we have to many people who have not played any other class and have no idea what the others are capable of. If we did you would understand we are the 1 legged man that suffers from seizures and is blind trying to run a marathon vs normal athletes. Sure we "might" make it but everyone else will have finished and forgotten about it before we do.
I'm certainly not going to get personally offensive against ANYBODY, but I will admit that when marsh said we can get from mob to mob faster than anybody I had a little eyeroll moment.
Dude... GFs and TRs can insta-teleport-attack for pretty good damage (GFs have an at-will that does this!), and you aren't outrunning a magic missile barrage or knife throws. Clerics are ranged and have AoE too, although I will admit I have not yet tried to play one. All things considered, we are actually slower to attack enemies than the other classes.
But Hey! I forgot that Mighty Leap got its base cooldown reduced by 1 second in the balance patch! Nevermind... we're awesome! LOL
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
Marsh i have played on test shard and guess what? GWF are still useless, go play in a t2 dungeon what happens on test? PUNT mobs, control mobs, CW AOE the mobs down 4x as fast as a GWF if no other choice. The CD on mostly useless skills got buffed. The meta is leaning to, 1 GF / 1 TR / 1 DC / 2 CW .... notice something? What is the class i did not say? and now that TR and DC are getting nerfed it means they can not afford to carry a GWF anymore. Stop with the **** brown nosing we as a class need to be reworked badly, people that are spouting the nonsense " WE OK, WE OK, WE OK you want my nose further in?" are doing nothing but hurting the class. GF *****ed moaned and complained as an ENTIRE community and look what happened? The class got some nice buffs. Sadly we have to many people who have not played any other class and have no idea what the others are capable of. If we did you would understand we are the 1 legged man that suffers from seizures and is blind trying to run a marathon vs normal athletes. Sure we "might" make it but everyone else will have finished and forgotten about it before we do.
All I run is T2 and with our current changes we'll be fine if not better, clerics wont have to carry us with our new unstoppable and with the GF being the only one getting the majority of aggro it is necessary to have an OT for big groups. Also, with the threat changes you will be pulling aggro consistently which will enable you to be in unstoppable almost permanently every pull. You can run a two CW build but they will fall short in fights where knock off is useless.
You can say im brown nosing all you want, but the fact of the matter is if you cant play the class as is now then you arent going to be able to make a **** bit of difference if they buffed you or not. BTW I also play a T2 GF and the "buffs" they gave them are mostly fixing broken feats, powers, and threat.
And the capability of soloing to 60 is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard to compare classes. Sprint cancelling is something that I do not do, but that is due to me being to lazy and using my sprint more to get combat advantage than to cancel animations. I promise that if you talk to any of the people I play with they can back my claims up tenfold.
All I run is T2 and with our current changes we'll be fine if not better, clerics wont have to carry us with our new unstoppable and with the GF being the only one getting the majority of aggro it is necessary to have an OT for big groups. Also, with the threat changes you will be pulling aggro consistently which will enable you to be in unstoppable almost permanently every pull. You can run a two CW build but they will fall short in fights where knock off is useless.
It's possible that the aggro fixes might change things for the better on GWF. A little. I don't see how you claim that two CW is bad though, knocking add's off ledges isn't the only trick in the CW playbook. As a matter of fact, CW are getting a pretty significant buff to their Chill stacks which is going to blow the lid off GWF. One Arcane CW and one Chill CW is probably going to be the new dynamic.
The very fact that half the feats in the CW tree don't work, as well as half their class skills, and yet they are still out performing GWF should be a giant red warning flag to every single GWF out there. Seriously.
Look here if you want to know what I think needs to be changed to fix GWF.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
And the capability of soloing to 60 is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard to compare classes.
Not trying to get on your case, marshmallow, but why would you think this? Can you find a better measuring stick to compare class-to-class performance over the long run? I would say that ease of leveling to endgame is THE definitive metric for class comparisons. It takes the entire game content into consideration... how much more broad of a perspective could you want?
Unless, of course, the metric is not giving you the answer you have decided upon ahead of time. I'm not trying to insult you here... just trying to get you to see what's going on here and where people like me are coming from. You can call me a whiner or a no-good hack player, but that does not change what the facts are. The GWF is a bear to level solo. The other classes aren't. Think about it.
Edit: also, thanks spacejew, for that link to your insightful post. You make very excellent points.
Not trying to get on your case, marshmallow, but why would you think this? Can you find a better measuring stick to compare class-to-class performance over the long run? I would say that ease of leveling to endgame is THE definitive metric for class comparisons. It takes the entire game content into consideration... how much more broad of a perspective could you want?
Marshmallow is kind of a dbag but he's not wrong. Using leveling speed isn't a good metric. This game is stupid easy to solo level no matter what class you're playing. Maybe it's tough for DC, but I have noticed almost zero difference in leveling speed or difficulty between GWF, CW, and TR. It was easiest on the TR for sure, but that was the only real outlier. Even TR didn't over perform until I had Impossible to Catch. That ability is stupid OP in pretty much every situation, and it needs to be excised from the game if Cryptic ever intends on tanking classes to be useful outside of pure DPS spec.
What's that you say? Rogues get two instant dodges, a teleport that puts you in position for Combat Advantage and works as yet another dodge in a pinch, and an ability that negates all damage and CC for five seconds on a short f'ing cooldown? Oh, and you say that their daze can hit five targets and do more damage than most other classes encounter abilities? Yeah, seems legit that a rogue wearing no armor is the best tank/aggro magnet/DPS in the game while sacrificing pretty much nothing at all.
Even if you do get in over your head as a rogue, the fact that stealth not only deaggros but can also be chained while providing a massive DPS gain is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. The very base of the Rogue class is OP, and everything stacked on that OP base is even more OP. If you play a rogue well, you know what I mean.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
Not trying to get on your case, marshmallow, but why would you think this? Can you find a better measuring stick to compare class-to-class performance over the long run? I would say that ease of leveling to endgame is THE definitive metric for class comparisons. It takes the entire game content into consideration... how much more broad of a perspective could you want?
Unless, of course, the metric is not giving you the answer you have decided upon ahead of time. I'm not trying to insult you here... just trying to get you to see what's going on here and where people like me are coming from. You can call me a whiner or a no-good hack player, but that does not change what the facts are. The GWF is a bear to level solo. The other classes aren't. Think about it.
I believe that trying to appeal to devs about balancing a class around levelling instead of the end result will only do more harm than good. You cant balance a class based on the fact that lowbie players have a hard time soloing content, realistically the difficulty of levelling should make you a better player. I can honestly tell you I have seen almost 10x as many bad CW's and TR's as I have seen GWF's, and that may be just the fact that the levelling process weeds out many people.
Dude. It's defaulted that we well and truly suck. Given a reasonably well played CW that is afk 20% of the time and give the GWF a 300k in damage on their chart from the get-go, and the CW will still outdps the GWF. (me.) Granted, he is still better geared then me. Even after 10+ runs to get a t2 sword, I only get the bound stuff that I can sell for 20 pots. (yay! horrid week of delving.)
Even with the low low speed reductions, speed encounter rotations don't get an additional hit until 100 seconds into an encounter. Outside of CN, you don't get encounters that last that long. What will happen though is that mobs die a little bit sooner in dungeons only due to the damage increase of certain abilities. The way they die however will provide less opportunity for extra damage to be counted, as my damage value will likely be enough to not leave a sliver of health left. When we begin to look at our charts, we'll see that GWF output will look higher then it actually is due to the statistical limitations of group play.
To get a real feel for class comparisons, you need to start soloing dungeons with characters of similar expertise, and then scale them over a time value; so as to negate the rest of the relationships.
Till then. It's worth having leap at at least 1 pt so that you can jump around if it's ever needed. (ie. you get stuck with a bad cleric.)
I can honestly tell you I have seen almost 10x as many bad CW's and TR's as I have seen GWF's, and that may be just the fact that the levelling process weeds out many people.
That is because the community recognizes that CW and TR are better classes, and there are at least 10x as many CW and TR as there are GWF. I have virtually never played with a decent GWF other than myself. It is a rare, rare thing to see an even semi-competent GWF, but no where near as rare to come across a well played CW or TR. There are more examples of incompetent CW and TR because there are so many more of them it's insane. Even then, there's no denying that most of the time when a GWF is in your group they are not only under performing compared to what GWF can do but also under performing what every other class has the potential to do in the same slot.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'm not saying that the endgame balance should be sacrificed for the sake of leveling balance, I'm saying that it should be balanced across the board whether you're still leveling or if you are at 60. Let's face it, at 60 there's not much more you can do with skill balance because you're already at the end. If balance was messed up along the journey, then it only makes sense that the end result is messed up too.
Would everybody agree that post-60 balance/power is mostly based on gear?
If this is the case, then it is imperative that class/skill balance be achieved while leveling, because that's the only time it actually matters. LOL BEFORE you can get gear that makes up for deficiencies in class design or poor choices in build. Somebody posted in here recently that GWFs are the best tank class because of endgame gear that gives +8000 HP or whatever... lol not trying to be a jerk or anything, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
You make a valid point that you didn't intend to make that it's possible that T1 gear results in lackluster T2 GWF performance.
Your point about leveling speed is invalid, each class is incredibly easy to solo up to level 60. I have never teamed outside of Dungeons for any PvE content and succeeded at all of it with very, very little effort. I also use default cleric companions, so it has nothing to do with 'P2W' items. It's just really, really easy content.
As a matter of fact, if you have problems with the PvE solo content it's pretty much a given that you will never succeed at T1/T2 without a very strong carry player.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Haha, I'm just gonna have to say that I'm not as good a player as you are then, space. GWF was very tedious for me. In contrast, I'm lvling a shieldless GF right now and it's easier. I can perhaps chalk it up to my previous experience playing RaiderZ where you can have a dozen or more "encounter powers" on timers, and I am pretty good at juggling CDs as a result. Since I am more apt to use the encounters, it just makes sense that a class with strong encounters is going to be easier for me.
Haha, marshmallow was right... I DO suck at playing. LOL
Haha, I'm just gonna have to say that I'm not as good a player as you are then, space. GWF was very tedious for me. In contrast, I'm lvling a shieldless GF right now and it's easier. I can perhaps chalk it up to my previous experience playing RaiderZ where you can have a dozen or more "encounter powers" on timers, and I am pretty good at juggling CDs as a result. Since I am more apt to use the encounters, it just makes sense that a class with strong encounters is going to be easier for me.
Haha, marshmallow was right... I DO suck at playing. LOL
I'm not saying you suck, those are your words not mine. I leveled to 60 on my GWF as a Reaping Strike Destroyer and it worked admirably and easily up until max level T2. The only decent way to generate Determination while leveling, in my mind, is the gain you get from being hit while charging RS. Nothing else compared for me, and the things that arguably could compare were counter productive to my play style. (I.E. the knockback on Roar.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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marshmallowninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
I'm not saying you suck, those are your words not mine. I leveled to 60 on my GWF as a Reaping Strike Destroyer and it worked admirably and easily up until max level T2. The only decent way to generate Determination while leveling, in my mind, is the gain you get from being hit while charging RS. Nothing else compared for me, and the things that arguably could compare were counter productive to my play style. (I.E. the knockback on Roar.)
Jew is right GWF at 60 loses any type of viability it may have had once you get into T2 Content, and the abilities we have at our fingertips is counterproductive without strong partners. Thus another class being taken 90% of the time. I can realistically tell you that I have to put my own groups together to have any chance of going into a dungeon, however, I love the GWF and am sticking with it more out of stubbornness then out of the need for the class.
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LOL I see that you found one of my other threads. Care to weigh in on my ideas in this one? Would implementing even some of my changes make the class more fun/rewarding to play?
I'm actually having a ball on my shield-less GF. On the topic of GWF, unstoppable-centric gameplay with ways to augment the way one utilizes unstoppable would be really nice, not unlike the way TR is focused on stealth. First, of course, I think general issues with dungeons (throwing adds off the stage) and threat should be fixed before we start throwing major changes around but y'all are definitely heading in a good direction.
AHHHH hahahahaha you're doing it too? I have to admit I love my shieldless GF more than my GWF at this point. Thanks for your replies.
Some things that would help me:
(1) having some way to break free of being prone (or at least stand up from it much faster) once I've been afflicted by it.
(2) making Unstoppable truly block all CC/knockback/everything entirely instead of only half-stopping certain KB effects while totally stopping others.
(3) Having an AoE stun or knockdown (Takedown and Flourish are only very situationally useful to me in PvE atm -- it's almost never just one mob trying to tear my cleric's face off, and if it is just one mob, that mob is immune to CC. Currently I only get to use Takedown to help with CC-locking Erineyes and other strategically important casters, and I feel about 20,000 leagues behind CWs and even TRs in that capacity.)
Oddly enough I don't really feel like the At-Wills need a dramatic increase to their target cap (though something like 7 or 8 mobs max instead of 5 would be nice if they really do feel the need to design fights to have 20+ adds on the field at once). I do wish more of my AoE encounters and dailies could hit more than 5 targets though. Being able to Not So Fast an entire swarm (or at least more of it than it seems I currently can) would be helpful.
Being able to mark more often would be useful. Or at least have the marks mean more than they currently do if they're going to be so painfully restricted in terms of condition (can't let the mob hit you) and duration (it's not that long compared to the cooldowns involved).
Conceivably it might be nice to add bonus effects to various Encounters if we're Unstoppable at the time we're using them. (Since Encounters don't seem to get any faster or stronger during Unstoppable, I suppose it's currently preferable not to use ANY encounters during Unstoppable unless we must -- this could change that for the better.) Some example bonuses:
Daring Shout -> briefly weakens enemy offense if used while unstoppable.
Come and Get It -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Not So Fast -> has no target limit if used while unstoppable.
Takedown -> sends out a small AoE shockwave that knocks down the primary target and up to 4 other nearby targets, if used while unstoppable.
Mighty Leap -> animates faster and briefly stuns up to 5 targets in its radius, if used while unstoppable.
Roar -> the pushback component is much stronger if used while unstoppable.
Etc.
There's any number of things that could be done to help the encounters, and implementing many of them as bonus effects on Unstoppable seems like a reasonable move.
Focusing on having Unstoppable add more CC or utility to our encounters (rather than just doing more damage) would also give us interesting decisions to make: keep At-Willing during Unstoppable for the heightened DPS, or throw in some encounters as well for extra CC or other utility? Since a game is a series of interesting choices, this seems to be a good idea from that perspective as well.
+1
But that is small potatoes compared to what the GWF needs to get done. LOL
I did the same thing... to see what all the hubbub was about. Right from the get-go, my eyes were popping at how much performance the TR has over us. Just really, really a world of difference... SOOOOO much better.
That's why when I see people post how the GWF is just fine and everything is good I just kinda smile and shake my head. And it motivates me to get in here at the barracks and make some noise. Because, honestly guys... the difference is night and day.
You are thinking about present day, but the patch is only 8 days away and then everything changes. CWs will get flattened if they try to play the same way as they do now when the patch rolls around. An add tank will be needed... that is your role people. Stop looking at the current build that we all know and understand is gimped and instead look ahead.
GWFs are hybrids with a role of being an add tank. You aren't strikers, you aren't barbarians. Start building up a real tanking set and then people will view you as useful. The dynamic will be shifting for everyone.
Hmm... that's not what's being said in the library. The CWs are biatching about getting PVP nerfed, but PVE is staying the same. They will continue to dominate mob control and now their DPS numbers vs. a TR is getting closer after the bleed gets sorted out.
The patch is not going to change much for us, I'm afraid. As I said in the OP, we need more than a couple of tweaks.
OK I'm sorry I normally don't say anything but I'm tired of the under 60's *****ing about GWF. GWF is a great class for mob control and OT you can take a punch and unstoppable makes it so you can sit on mobs in situations were most have to roll away. Target caps blow but with the frequency of our hits and our versatility of aoe and mobility we are able to get from mob to mob much faster than any other class aside from a bad shadowstepper. I have played the preview shard and I can honestly tell you that the GWF with all the buffs we are getting will top the meters IF you know how to play them well. Couple things people arent including in there *****ing is the fact that our encounters now have a reduced CD which will increase our dps tenfold also WS got a buff and with the new threat generation and unstoppable youll be getting hit a lot more enabling you to keep unstoppable up constantly. I promise if you are playing the class right with current content, then with the next patch you will be a god.
Dude... GFs and TRs can insta-teleport-attack for pretty good damage (GFs have an at-will that does this!), and you aren't outrunning a magic missile barrage or knife throws. Clerics are ranged and have AoE too, although I will admit I have not yet tried to play one. All things considered, we are actually slower to attack enemies than the other classes.
But Hey! I forgot that Mighty Leap got its base cooldown reduced by 1 second in the balance patch! Nevermind... we're awesome! LOL
All I run is T2 and with our current changes we'll be fine if not better, clerics wont have to carry us with our new unstoppable and with the GF being the only one getting the majority of aggro it is necessary to have an OT for big groups. Also, with the threat changes you will be pulling aggro consistently which will enable you to be in unstoppable almost permanently every pull. You can run a two CW build but they will fall short in fights where knock off is useless.
You can say im brown nosing all you want, but the fact of the matter is if you cant play the class as is now then you arent going to be able to make a **** bit of difference if they buffed you or not. BTW I also play a T2 GF and the "buffs" they gave them are mostly fixing broken feats, powers, and threat.
And the capability of soloing to 60 is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard to compare classes. Sprint cancelling is something that I do not do, but that is due to me being to lazy and using my sprint more to get combat advantage than to cancel animations. I promise that if you talk to any of the people I play with they can back my claims up tenfold.
It's possible that the aggro fixes might change things for the better on GWF. A little. I don't see how you claim that two CW is bad though, knocking add's off ledges isn't the only trick in the CW playbook. As a matter of fact, CW are getting a pretty significant buff to their Chill stacks which is going to blow the lid off GWF. One Arcane CW and one Chill CW is probably going to be the new dynamic.
The very fact that half the feats in the CW tree don't work, as well as half their class skills, and yet they are still out performing GWF should be a giant red warning flag to every single GWF out there. Seriously.
Look here if you want to know what I think needs to be changed to fix GWF.
Not trying to get on your case, marshmallow, but why would you think this? Can you find a better measuring stick to compare class-to-class performance over the long run? I would say that ease of leveling to endgame is THE definitive metric for class comparisons. It takes the entire game content into consideration... how much more broad of a perspective could you want?
Unless, of course, the metric is not giving you the answer you have decided upon ahead of time. I'm not trying to insult you here... just trying to get you to see what's going on here and where people like me are coming from. You can call me a whiner or a no-good hack player, but that does not change what the facts are. The GWF is a bear to level solo. The other classes aren't. Think about it.
Edit: also, thanks spacejew, for that link to your insightful post. You make very excellent points.
Marshmallow is kind of a dbag but he's not wrong. Using leveling speed isn't a good metric. This game is stupid easy to solo level no matter what class you're playing. Maybe it's tough for DC, but I have noticed almost zero difference in leveling speed or difficulty between GWF, CW, and TR. It was easiest on the TR for sure, but that was the only real outlier. Even TR didn't over perform until I had Impossible to Catch. That ability is stupid OP in pretty much every situation, and it needs to be excised from the game if Cryptic ever intends on tanking classes to be useful outside of pure DPS spec.
What's that you say? Rogues get two instant dodges, a teleport that puts you in position for Combat Advantage and works as yet another dodge in a pinch, and an ability that negates all damage and CC for five seconds on a short f'ing cooldown? Oh, and you say that their daze can hit five targets and do more damage than most other classes encounter abilities? Yeah, seems legit that a rogue wearing no armor is the best tank/aggro magnet/DPS in the game while sacrificing pretty much nothing at all.
Even if you do get in over your head as a rogue, the fact that stealth not only deaggros but can also be chained while providing a massive DPS gain is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. The very base of the Rogue class is OP, and everything stacked on that OP base is even more OP. If you play a rogue well, you know what I mean.
I believe that trying to appeal to devs about balancing a class around levelling instead of the end result will only do more harm than good. You cant balance a class based on the fact that lowbie players have a hard time soloing content, realistically the difficulty of levelling should make you a better player. I can honestly tell you I have seen almost 10x as many bad CW's and TR's as I have seen GWF's, and that may be just the fact that the levelling process weeds out many people.
Even with the low low speed reductions, speed encounter rotations don't get an additional hit until 100 seconds into an encounter. Outside of CN, you don't get encounters that last that long. What will happen though is that mobs die a little bit sooner in dungeons only due to the damage increase of certain abilities. The way they die however will provide less opportunity for extra damage to be counted, as my damage value will likely be enough to not leave a sliver of health left. When we begin to look at our charts, we'll see that GWF output will look higher then it actually is due to the statistical limitations of group play.
To get a real feel for class comparisons, you need to start soloing dungeons with characters of similar expertise, and then scale them over a time value; so as to negate the rest of the relationships.
Till then. It's worth having leap at at least 1 pt so that you can jump around if it's ever needed. (ie. you get stuck with a bad cleric.)
That is because the community recognizes that CW and TR are better classes, and there are at least 10x as many CW and TR as there are GWF. I have virtually never played with a decent GWF other than myself. It is a rare, rare thing to see an even semi-competent GWF, but no where near as rare to come across a well played CW or TR. There are more examples of incompetent CW and TR because there are so many more of them it's insane. Even then, there's no denying that most of the time when a GWF is in your group they are not only under performing compared to what GWF can do but also under performing what every other class has the potential to do in the same slot.
Would everybody agree that post-60 balance/power is mostly based on gear?
If this is the case, then it is imperative that class/skill balance be achieved while leveling, because that's the only time it actually matters. LOL BEFORE you can get gear that makes up for deficiencies in class design or poor choices in build. Somebody posted in here recently that GWFs are the best tank class because of endgame gear that gives +8000 HP or whatever... lol not trying to be a jerk or anything, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
You make a valid point that you didn't intend to make that it's possible that T1 gear results in lackluster T2 GWF performance.
Your point about leveling speed is invalid, each class is incredibly easy to solo up to level 60. I have never teamed outside of Dungeons for any PvE content and succeeded at all of it with very, very little effort. I also use default cleric companions, so it has nothing to do with 'P2W' items. It's just really, really easy content.
As a matter of fact, if you have problems with the PvE solo content it's pretty much a given that you will never succeed at T1/T2 without a very strong carry player.
Haha, marshmallow was right... I DO suck at playing. LOL
I'm not saying you suck, those are your words not mine. I leveled to 60 on my GWF as a Reaping Strike Destroyer and it worked admirably and easily up until max level T2. The only decent way to generate Determination while leveling, in my mind, is the gain you get from being hit while charging RS. Nothing else compared for me, and the things that arguably could compare were counter productive to my play style. (I.E. the knockback on Roar.)
Jew is right GWF at 60 loses any type of viability it may have had once you get into T2 Content, and the abilities we have at our fingertips is counterproductive without strong partners. Thus another class being taken 90% of the time. I can realistically tell you that I have to put my own groups together to have any chance of going into a dungeon, however, I love the GWF and am sticking with it more out of stubbornness then out of the need for the class.