Rogues should be a strategic asset, not a tactical one. Your fighters should be tactical like an armour division, the one sloughing away at the enemy. Rogues should be like airpower, fly in, do a bunch of damage and fly out. CWs should be like artillery, dropping in HE rounds to keep their heads down, while the tanks roll over them. With Clerics supporting everybody and dropping the occassional combined EMP, nuclear, and biological warhead. Start thinking in terms of teamwork, not 5 1v1 matches that just happen to occurring at the same time. The other thing you have to remember this is happening in a D&D framework, there are limitations as to how balanced things can get.
How does the rogue not in Neverwinter not mesh with that description? The rogue in this game is all about gaining special advantage. The throwing knives occur from stealth. The rogues at mid are able to fight off GWF because they used Dazing Strike or Smoke Bomb to gain a special advantage. The idea that rogues are just waltzing mid, shaking off damage and killing tanks with Sky Flourish is a myth. There's always a million factors going on in the PvP, and you're not looking at the broad picture. There's usually always something going on that's allowing the rogue to do what he's doing. Otherwise he'd just be dead, because he's made of paper.
I'm not saying it doesn't, this was a response to people saying rogues should be "tanky." They should not win in a straight up fight, and should be sneaky and tactical in play. Stunning/Disabling someone and hitting them with a default attack is not sneaky. I'd like to see more of an emphasis on stealthing and positioning, with backstabbing come into play more often. Buff encounters, increase cooldowns, and decrease their at-wills. My wife has never been able to do well in any mmo, since I got her into them 5 years ago, but she somehow owns with her rogue. I think with some changes, we can make the TR into a high risk/high reward class that not everyone and their grandmother can play.
Once again, not asking for nerfs, my main is now a rogue with full enchantments.
I'm not saying it doesn't, this was a response to people saying rogues should be "tanky." They should not win in a straight up fight, and should be sneaky and tactical in play. Stunning/Disabling someone and hitting them with a default attack is not sneaky. I'd like to see more of an emphasis on stealthing and positioning, with backstabbing come into play more often. Buff encounters, increase cooldowns, and decrease their at-wills. My wife has never been able to do well in any mmo, since I got her into them 5 years ago, but she somehow owns with her rogue. I think with some changes, we can make the TR into a high risk/high reward class that not everyone and their grandmother can play.
Once again, not asking for nerfs, my main is now a rogue with full enchantments.
I use dazing strike while in stealth, so it certainly is being sneaky and tactical. Otherwise, it's a slow animation that is very recognizable and easy to dodge. I believe that's on purpose. The game is actively pushing you towards utilizing the stealth mechanic more. The problem with your idea is that the character you're describing would be useless in PvE dungeons, then main priority in this game. For your idea to work they would have dramatically change the way combat advantage and stealth function in this game. When your character is completely offense-focused with no points spent into making stealth last longer or generate faster, then you have about six seconds of prolonged invisibility. Keep in mind, you usually need to pop it the second an enemy can see you, since Control Wizards have such incredible range. So that means you need to spend these six seconds running over to the wizard, just to unleash one powerful move and then handle the rest of the fight while visible. The only way for the character you describe to work is he his encounters are literally one-shotting everyone (which clearly makes people upset), or if stealth lasts much longer and only drops after two encounter abilities. It just wouldn't work with the way this game is made.
You need to ignore the name "rogue", and just think of this class by it's role in-game. Single-target melee striker. He's a duelist and an assassin. The reason he can win these 1to1 fights is because his class is designed around doing that in PvE dungeons. And also because his skills are all about disabling the competition and getting unfair advantages. The type of "rogue" that is in this game is the type we saw in the cinematic trailer. She wasn't focusing on backstabbing or positioning very slightly during the match. She was all about high mobility, teleportation, and high-damaging dagger strikes. Very flashy. Not very stealthy.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
I use dazing strike while in stealth, so it certainly is being sneaky and tactical. Otherwise, it's a slow animation that is very recognizable and easy to dodge. I believe that's on purpose. The game is actively pushing you towards utilizing the stealth mechanic more. The problem with your idea is that the character you're describing would be useless in PvE dungeons, then main priority in this game. For your idea to work they would have dramatically change the way combat advantage and stealth function in this game. When your character is completely offense-focused with no points spent into making stealth last longer or generate faster, then you have about six seconds of prolonged invisibility. Keep in mind, you usually need to pop it the second an enemy can see you, since Control Wizards have such incredible range. So that means you need to spend these six seconds running over to the wizard, just to unleash one powerful move and then handle the rest of the fight while visible. The only way for the character you describe to work is he his encounters are literally one-shotting everyone (which clearly makes people upset), or if stealth lasts much longer and only drops after two encounter abilities. It just wouldn't work with the way this game is made.
You need to ignore the name "rogue", and just think of this class by it's role in-game. Single-target melee striker. He's a duelist and an assassin. The reason he can win these 1to1 fights is because his class is designed around doing that in PvE dungeons. And also because his skills are all about disabling the competition and getting unfair advantages. The type of "rogue" that is in this game is the type we saw in the cinematic trailer. She wasn't focusing on backstabbing or positioning very slightly during the match. She was all about high mobility, teleportation, and high-damaging dagger strikes. Very flashy. Not very stealthy.
True, any decent rogue will open with disable. I laugh when i'm on my GF, and someone opens up with a damage ability.
I guess i'm just used to other MMO implementations of rogues. My first impressions of a rogue were "holy HAMSTER my default attack does how much damage?" Followed by, "I can actually do lots of damage with encounters when not just opening up on an enemy?" And then finally "My daily does how much?"
There's almost no emphasis on backstab or flanking play. I believe TR's should be dive bombers, in and out of combat with ease, but easily killed if they're caught outside of this, but that's just my opinion. At-will attacking with stealth on is another strange dynamic that I'm still not sure if I like.
True these changes would be tough to deal with in PvE, it's why I think the two categories should be balanced independently. I don't know why they don't apply buff/debuffs based on PvP zones, and use PvP gear, although I suspect monetization has a lot to do with it.
I'll agree with this if CW's get plate. Since that won't happen, a CW should do more DPS than a GWF.
Depends. Do you regard a CW as a Defender (using mitigation and toughness to take the hits from mobs pulled off the squishier party members) or as Controllers (using abilities that slow and move enemies to prevent them getting to attack party members or the CW) as the function other than striker?
If controller, why would you need defences as high as a pure defender? You can prevent mobs from attacking you, and you don't need to be within melee range to deal your damage.
Nothing is fair or balanced in regards to class skills/spells.
There will ALWAYS be someone better than you REGARDLESS of class. That is the balance. Class means nothing in MMOs.
The point is that in an MMO, there is no DM who can adjudicate spells that do something other than very basic functions.
There is also no DM who can artificially introduce specific aids, hindrances and gimmicks to ensure that all players get to contribute.
Thus in an MMO, it is important that classes are balanced so that they are all effective as part of their base mechanics, allowing factors like player skill to make a difference.
Rogues are deadly but somewhat vulnerable physical combatants. Their combat abilities are similar to those of the monk or the cleric, but they have relatively low Hit Points (1d6 per level) and are proficient only with fairly low-damage weapons.
Rogues are not typically intended to act as front-line soldiers, but are instead meant to flank enemies. There they use their unique abilities to inflict great injury to the enemy. A well built rogue is capable of surpassing many other classes in terms of melee-damage, when the rogue is able to gain a special advantage over a target.
^ This is what i'd like to see. Apply poisons or venom in stealth, and burst someone down before their team notices, and vanish without a trace. Not facetanking a GWF at mid, or outdamaging someone by shooting daggers from stealth.
Balance is VERY important to a games ecosystem. I'm not talking about a nerf, just a restructuring. The rogues success and failure should hinge on a knife's edge(pun intended).
4e rules is they are a martial defender. Not striker dps.
Despite the general denigration of 4th ed, there is still a fair amount of flexibility possible in character building. The GWF represents a fighter built around dealing damage rather than threatening and absorbing damage. Hence why its considered a hybrid.
Its like how you could build a Rogue around controlling opponents, or a Wizard around dealing damage: you don't completely lose all aspects of the original class, but you can push a build quite a way towards a different role.
Comments
I'm not saying it doesn't, this was a response to people saying rogues should be "tanky." They should not win in a straight up fight, and should be sneaky and tactical in play. Stunning/Disabling someone and hitting them with a default attack is not sneaky. I'd like to see more of an emphasis on stealthing and positioning, with backstabbing come into play more often. Buff encounters, increase cooldowns, and decrease their at-wills. My wife has never been able to do well in any mmo, since I got her into them 5 years ago, but she somehow owns with her rogue. I think with some changes, we can make the TR into a high risk/high reward class that not everyone and their grandmother can play.
Once again, not asking for nerfs, my main is now a rogue with full enchantments.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
I use dazing strike while in stealth, so it certainly is being sneaky and tactical. Otherwise, it's a slow animation that is very recognizable and easy to dodge. I believe that's on purpose. The game is actively pushing you towards utilizing the stealth mechanic more. The problem with your idea is that the character you're describing would be useless in PvE dungeons, then main priority in this game. For your idea to work they would have dramatically change the way combat advantage and stealth function in this game. When your character is completely offense-focused with no points spent into making stealth last longer or generate faster, then you have about six seconds of prolonged invisibility. Keep in mind, you usually need to pop it the second an enemy can see you, since Control Wizards have such incredible range. So that means you need to spend these six seconds running over to the wizard, just to unleash one powerful move and then handle the rest of the fight while visible. The only way for the character you describe to work is he his encounters are literally one-shotting everyone (which clearly makes people upset), or if stealth lasts much longer and only drops after two encounter abilities. It just wouldn't work with the way this game is made.
You need to ignore the name "rogue", and just think of this class by it's role in-game. Single-target melee striker. He's a duelist and an assassin. The reason he can win these 1to1 fights is because his class is designed around doing that in PvE dungeons. And also because his skills are all about disabling the competition and getting unfair advantages. The type of "rogue" that is in this game is the type we saw in the cinematic trailer. She wasn't focusing on backstabbing or positioning very slightly during the match. She was all about high mobility, teleportation, and high-damaging dagger strikes. Very flashy. Not very stealthy.
True, any decent rogue will open with disable. I laugh when i'm on my GF, and someone opens up with a damage ability.
I guess i'm just used to other MMO implementations of rogues. My first impressions of a rogue were "holy HAMSTER my default attack does how much damage?" Followed by, "I can actually do lots of damage with encounters when not just opening up on an enemy?" And then finally "My daily does how much?"
There's almost no emphasis on backstab or flanking play. I believe TR's should be dive bombers, in and out of combat with ease, but easily killed if they're caught outside of this, but that's just my opinion. At-will attacking with stealth on is another strange dynamic that I'm still not sure if I like.
True these changes would be tough to deal with in PvE, it's why I think the two categories should be balanced independently. I don't know why they don't apply buff/debuffs based on PvP zones, and use PvP gear, although I suspect monetization has a lot to do with it.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
If controller, why would you need defences as high as a pure defender? You can prevent mobs from attacking you, and you don't need to be within melee range to deal your damage.
There is also no DM who can artificially introduce specific aids, hindrances and gimmicks to ensure that all players get to contribute.
Thus in an MMO, it is important that classes are balanced so that they are all effective as part of their base mechanics, allowing factors like player skill to make a difference.
Cry enough and you get buffed and everyone else gets nerfed
gwf? did i miss something? or that 20% SS dmg boost is considered OP now?
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
You will see after the patch goes through. Gwf are owning it on test server
60 gwf. was on test.... not much of a difference even while using all possible GWF exploits to boost dmg.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
4e rules is they are a martial defender. Not striker dps.
Its like how you could build a Rogue around controlling opponents, or a Wizard around dealing damage: you don't completely lose all aspects of the original class, but you can push a build quite a way towards a different role.