Length of the quest question

eskarine

Hey guys,

So, here's the thing.

I am working on a new quest that's supposed to be a lengthy one with puzzles and exploration - at this point I have at least 6 outdoor maps and 9 indoor maps and it's entirely possible that I will make more.

I am concerned about the 10 quest limit for foundry, so I didn't want to make it into two-three campaign quests, I wanted to make just one - a big one. It will be probably close to an hour to run, but probably even more.

But I am wondering what's the general opinion of foundry authors AND players. It's obvious you won't be running this quest just for daily foundry if it's in one piece.

Are the quests in campaign counted outside your 10 quest limit? (Don't know, never made campaign before). Are there chances the 10 quest limit will be increased? Or should I just go with it and make one big quest?

guitarzan698

Hey.. I've seen that many people prefer the quick quests (15 to 20 minutes) but IMHO those people are really looking for the console game experience. Personally, I prefer a longer quest where I can become immersed in the story-line. If your plot is good, then I say... go for it.

maerwin

If you don't aim to get thousands of 15min runs daily (honestly, I wouldn't like if people ran my quest just for those few AD. And those people aren't really looking for an interesting quest, anyway), I say go for it! I, as a player, love long quests, if they are done good. You should, however, divide it into multiple maps, to give the player an option to leave (not everyone can play for an hour straight), and return later (you will be put on the beginning of the latest map you've been to)

thehuntress

Eskarine,

It sounds like quite an adventure. I think the more D&D RP players will love it - I know I will. I like to see what other people do in their quests - decor, story, dialogue, etc. It brings me back to the days of staying up late with chips and coke running a dungeon that should only take 5 minutes but with everything going on and the fun it takes an hour or two.

ovaltine74

Make the quest you want to make and chances are some people out there will like it to. I'd not go more than an hour though. Just because of limited inventory space. I made one that was 45 minutes long and there were some who said it was too long, but the majority of the people who played it actually enjoyed the story and the detail in the maps and didn't mind the length. Make the quest you want to make is my advice.

orodalf

runis12 has a really good long quest; it's long, but definitely worth it. 15 minutes doesn't seem like it's enough to build a truly deep story.

chinspinner

Personally I would rather play through a campaign made up of circa 20 minute quests than a single hour long quest.

xhrit

IMO the best thing to do is to have your early quests in the campaign be shorter then the latter ones. This gives players the chance to try out your storytelling style without too much of an investment. Then if they like your shorter quests they will be more willing to invest the time to play the longer ones.

ash4ll

Well, as a reviewer I play all kind of quests. But I saw that many people like those short quests. What I say - it's often not about he length of a quest, but all other factors. Many people have not that much time to spend on a quest. They prefer simple story with not that much thinking, but rewarding for their habits. For example:
- Go at sea by @lunchtimenow NW-DSEGBOHCC is a quest, where first 30 minutes of the quest are packed with fighting, action and puzzles, and after that quite a bunch of roleplay, pick-and-deliver type of quests, which are not as entertaining as previous part. The quest makes up for an hour, but it's not entertaining as it could be (however it may have changed - haven't spoken with author since reviewing).
- Gloomlight by nyghoma is a long quest that balances roleplay and action by equal. Encounters were very difficult, but overall it was very nice quest.
- However quest by runis12 is a long quest it had a major flaw that could make players dislike it - plot and lore was twisted so much I hardly understood it on the beggining. So many generic names!

So, my advice: make it interesting. If player feels rewarded by playing such a long quest (either intellectually, or physicaly [agility test] or by exp) he'll like it.


Also, if you want to make more quests than you have space, make another account. You only need to level up til 15 and you can make 10 brand new quests.

eskarine

Thanks for the quick feedback guys, I was sort-of concerned that people will just say that only short quests are ok. I do want people to be able to play it (and stop in the middle if needed, which is why there will be many maps - well, that, plus the 1500 objects limit) but I don't want to make 5x15minute quests just so that people can go through them for dailies.

I think I will make it into one quest, run it with timer and then decide if I should leave it in one piece or split it in two.

I would love to hear more thoughts on the subject too.

yospeck

I'm making a 5-man epic (literally, you can't even get in my quest unless you have at least 4 people in your group) and it will be hours long for those that want it to be (lots of exploration options).

I'm building a Campaign more akin to a WoW instance than yet another 15 min daily.

And that's the reality, a lot of people want to play quick quests for a few reasons:

1) They want a Daily
2) They don't have the time to play for hours
3) Unless the quest is exceptional then no one wants to be stuck in a quest for hours.

I want people to play other peoples quests for their 15 min dailies, rushing through them to get them out of the way as quickly as possible, and then in the evening getting some friends together and running my quest and taking their time with it. Some people play long quests for the fun of the story and the adventure the author has made, but some do just want some loot.

ovaltine74

Take your pick

Comic strip: 10-15 Minutes
Comic book: 15-30 Minutes
Novella or Short Story: 30-1hr (one quest)
Novel: 45 min to an 1hr quest segments (multiple parts or chapters)
Soap Opera: All of your foundry slots used to continue one epic story.

adjuchasbrokk

I'd avoid exceeding 40-50 minutes.

jintortle

Making it over 30 Minutes is a no no for me - Peeps have trouble with disconnects (which is ok atm - you still get back it at what you have achieved). But also fatigue ... Remember people might see 20 minutes and if they for instance have a Guardian Fighter who is Paragon tank Classed - he will take it 3-4 times slower. So if you want people to finish I would say 30 minutes tops on say a Control Wizard each section.

I have played heaps of play for plays and really I have played quests that say 40 minutes for over 90 minutes on my GF - I am not complaining about that - but really saying the KISS method Keep It Simple Stupid!!

Cheers,

PS I had a cleric saying in on of my quests that she used over 20 pots ( it was hard and have now totally revamped the map) but really I need them for any quest of boss. It was like Really You need that many, ohhhhh tut tut. ROFL!!!

zogvarnoka

One hour is about the longest any quest should be. Two main reasons: First is that people just need a break for whatever reason (food, drink, bio, etc). Allow them to take this break by having the quest a reasonable length. If you made a compelling story line or quest then they will play parts 2,3,4,etc readily enough.

Bag space is the other reason. My quest runs right around 45 minutes. Depending on the speed of killing mobs and RNG, I can easily fill up twenty-four inventory slots sometimes. You might be tempted to work in a trip back to protectors enclave or another "town" area in the middle of your quest. There is a bug currently when doing this which makes the quest disappear from the players journal when doing so in the middle of a quest. And they have to relog to get it back. So that option won't work currently.

raphaeldisanto

Remember.. Bag space is only an issue if there's lots of killing going on.

Killing mobs is not the only thing to do in quests (and frankly, an hour or more of just killing mobs is pretty painful to me). Like any good action movie (as opposed to a bad action movie), I'd rather have lots of plot, interspersed with short, plot-relevant bouts of violence.

zovya

Keep in mind a quest can only have up to 15 maps.

eskarine

raphaeldisanto wrote: »

Remember.. Bag space is only an issue if there's lots of killing going on.

Killing mobs is not the only thing to do in quests (and frankly, an hour or more of just killing mobs is pretty painful to me). Like any good action movie (as opposed to a bad action movie), I'd rather have lots of plot, interspersed with short, plot-relevant bouts of violence.

This story is plot-driven and there's very little combat, so bag space issue shouldn't be a problem. The plot-related items are also in user's inventory for a very short time, so they don't take up space.

Keep in mind a quest can only have up to 15 maps.

I wasn't aware of that. I guess that answers my question - the quest will have to have at least two parts.

guitarzan698

Wow.. I am stunned.. is this not Dungeons and Dragons? I can't remember the last time a bunch of players at my pnp game complained that the quest was too long.. or that they were running out of space in their inventory. I can see making a quest shorter for time considerations but really .. the bag space limitation complaint is just silly. Perhaps the players should consider dumping all that junk instead of worrying about every last silver piece they will get when they sell the stuff. IMHO if you are enticing players to your quest with the 'heaps of treasure' maybe the foundry isn't your medium. The treasure is so limited as it is... perhaps you should have some other hook to draw them into your quest... such as helping the weak, defending the kingdom, stopping evil, etc... not drag out piles of treasure. Look at the classic fantasy novels.. I can't think of one where the reason for getting involved was to gather loot. The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, Tales of the Lost Unicorn, Narnia, Sword of Shannara, Earth-Sea, Elric, Thomas Covenant, H.P. Lovecraft, Jack and the Beanstalk, Wizard of Oz, The Princess Bride, Willow, Dragon Riders of Pern, the list goes on and on. The hero is compelled to enter the story because of many reasons.. but treasure is rarely one of them. The foundry is just one tool for building adventures in this game.. your imagination is your best tool. Just my opinion.. but the argument for building shorter quests due to space limitations totally ruins concept for me.

eskarine

guitarzan698 wrote: »

Wow.. I am stunned.. is this not Dungeons and Dragons? I can't remember the last time a bunch of players at my pnp game complained that the quest was too long.. or that they were running out of space in their inventory. I can see making a quest shorter for time considerations but really .. the bag space limitation complaint is just silly. Perhaps the players should consider dumping all that junk instead of worrying about every last silver piece they will get when they sell the stuff. IMHO if you are enticing players to your quest with the 'heaps of treasure' maybe the foundry isn't your medium. The treasure is so limited as it is... perhaps you should have some other hook to draw them into your quest... such as helping the weak, defending the kingdom, stopping evil, etc... not drag out piles of treasure. Look at the classic fantasy novels.. I can't think of one where the reason for getting involved was to gather loot. The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, Tales of the Lost Unicorn, Narnia, Sword of Shannara, Earth-Sea, Elric, Thomas Covenant, H.P. Lovecraft, Jack and the Beanstalk, Wizard of Oz, The Princess Bride, Willow, Dragon Riders of Pern, the list goes on and on. The hero is compelled to enter the story because of many reasons.. but treasure is rarely one of them. The foundry is just one tool for building adventures in this game.. your imagination is your best tool. Just my opinion.. but the argument for building shorter quests due to space limitations totally ruins concept for me.

I get you, I really do. I wasn't aware of 15 maps per quest limitation - at this point I have 15 planned already and there will probably be more, so yeah.

That's how I wanted to build my quest - it won't have any D&D lore since I never really played it, but I would like to think that it has a compelling custom story about saving the worlds. I didn't want to carter only to those who want 15 minute quests for dailies, not adventure, but I guess we'll see.

runis12

Just gotta accept you can't please everyone.^^ Human brains get tired past the 50min mark though. And 15min isn't enough for the deep storyline a lot of people crave.

yospeck

Bag space is only an issue for people who are playing a Foundry quest for the loot as an alternative to getting loot playing official content. Hopefully if more long quests are released then people will get out of this mindset and start playing them for the story and/or fun factor.

zahinder

If it's going to be long, please cut it into multiple maps so that disconnects and inventory space doesn't have to be a problem.

Personally, I suggest... make it as long as it needs to be, and no more. If it's going to be long, consider cutting it into chapters.


But then you run into a floor -- it can be easy to make a creative, involved mission that takes a normal person 30 minutes or more, but can be 'speedrun' in 10 minutes. At which point the farmers/exploiters swarm down and drop the time run below eligibility (not to mention confusing people who say 'I'm 20 minutes in and not nearly done, how does that make sense?'

beeblebrox69

Hey there, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I've got a 45-60 minute quest that's had about 30 plays so far, and I've gotten at least 10 comments that it was too long--not that the story was too long (the real complaints have been more geared toward my sense of humor and style, as well as Foundry limitations I can't control), but simply that people don't want to be tied down to a single adventure for that long.

Some like it, some don't. For my follow up, I'm going to try to stick to 30-45 minutes, as that seems to be more the sweet spot for people who like longer stories without turning off people who dislike longer stories. I'd say go with your gut. If you want your quest to actually get played by a ton of people, keep it under 45 minutes, maybe even under 30, and break it up. If you want to gear it more towards a select few who will really appreciate it, knowing that most players won't even bother giving it a shot, make it as long as want.

I put in at least 80 hours on my quest, so I'd love EVERYBODY give it at least one runthrough... I don't have hopes of getting hundreds of thousands of AD in tips like other authors, I just want people to play, have fun, and at least have a chuckle or two. Unfortunately, when a vast majority of players see "Average time: 51 minutes," they immediately pass.

Ultimately though, as someone said, create what you'd want to play. I dig quests that bring back memories of playing D&D with my high school friends, and so I made a dark story with some bad pop culture jokes. I like solving puzzles, but I don't like them to kill my main quest if I can't solve them, and I liked hunting for the holocrons in SW:TOR and so I hid objects in my adventure as an optional quest and designed some relatively easy puzzles around a few of them. I don't like chugging dozens of potions, so my encounters are mostly easy and standard, saving the hard encounters for the bosses and minibosses. I made the kind of adventure I would want to play. Most of the people who tried it liked it, a few didn't.

In retrospect, I wish I would have cut it up so that more people could experience my demented little mind... XD

raphaeldisanto

guitarzan698 wrote: »

Wow.. I am stunned.. is this not Dungeons and Dragons? I can't remember the last time a bunch of players at my pnp game complained that the quest was too long.. or that they were running out of space in their inventory. I can see making a quest shorter for time considerations but really .. the bag space limitation complaint is just silly. Perhaps the players should consider dumping all that junk instead of worrying about every last silver piece they will get when they sell the stuff. IMHO if you are enticing players to your quest with the 'heaps of treasure' maybe the foundry isn't your medium. The treasure is so limited as it is... perhaps you should have some other hook to draw them into your quest... such as helping the weak, defending the kingdom, stopping evil, etc... not drag out piles of treasure. Look at the classic fantasy novels.. I can't think of one where the reason for getting involved was to gather loot. The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, Tales of the Lost Unicorn, Narnia, Sword of Shannara, Earth-Sea, Elric, Thomas Covenant, H.P. Lovecraft, Jack and the Beanstalk, Wizard of Oz, The Princess Bride, Willow, Dragon Riders of Pern, the list goes on and on. The hero is compelled to enter the story because of many reasons.. but treasure is rarely one of them. The foundry is just one tool for building adventures in this game.. your imagination is your best tool. Just my opinion.. but the argument for building shorter quests due to space limitations totally ruins concept for me.

While that's true in other mediums, generally speaking:

a) Most (not all) tabletop D&D originally was mostly about dungeoncrawling, loot gathering and character levelling. Like any bad action movie, the extremely thin narrative was there purely to provide an anorexic reason for the goblin slaughter.

b) Video games, especially CRPGs, tend to follow the same suit. I can't name a single CRPG where you spend more time in the narrative (i.e. talking to people and advancing the story) than you do in the company of bad guys (be that killing them or sneaking past them)

At the end of the day, you should make what you want, and to the nine hells with the reviews and the ratings. Make it because you want to make it. Not because you're chasing some gold at the end of the review rainbow.

The only person who -has- to like your quest, at the end of the day, is you.

meedacthunist

Do your quest as long or short as you see fit.

Your only concern should not be quest length, but playability.
If your quest is longer, split it between few maps so player can take rest from playing and not losing too much progress. It's not that people don't want to play very long quest, it's that playing very long quest may be simply not possible in a single session.

But this is pretty much your only serious limitation.

eskarine

Ok, I will HAVE to make it at least 2 parts - I wasn't aware there is a limit to 15 maps per quest. For what I have planned I have JUST ONE map appearing 6 times, another map used 2 times, 5 outdoor maps and 3-4 indoor maps. I *might* include more. So yeah, 2 parts seems like a reasonable idea.