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Why Gauntlgrym Seems Like Bad Game Design
geohin
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 26 Arc User
Forward:
Gauntlgrym is the long awaited end game content for Neverwinter. As someone who hit level 60 about a week after the open beta release and has attempted almost every inch of content in the game as it stands, I was very excited to hear more about this 20 man event. With multiple dailies already stocked on Rhix, I expected a lot of options for the new content for players of all shapes and sizes. In case you haven't read it yet, here is the link for the Gauntlgrym 'preview' : http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=885581 . I understand that this content has not yet been released and that we can make better judgments on the quality of the raid when we can actually play it. However, the video and information release reveals a lot about the content. Enough for me to come to the conclusion that this is a horrible addition to the Neverwinter world.
This is going to be a long post, so if you intend to comment on these ideas, I suggest you sit back, grab a cup of coffee and dig in.
Why Gauntlgrym is Bad Game Design:
What (in my opinion) Would Be Better
Gauntlgrym is the long awaited end game content for Neverwinter. As someone who hit level 60 about a week after the open beta release and has attempted almost every inch of content in the game as it stands, I was very excited to hear more about this 20 man event. With multiple dailies already stocked on Rhix, I expected a lot of options for the new content for players of all shapes and sizes. In case you haven't read it yet, here is the link for the Gauntlgrym 'preview' : http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=885581 . I understand that this content has not yet been released and that we can make better judgments on the quality of the raid when we can actually play it. However, the video and information release reveals a lot about the content. Enough for me to come to the conclusion that this is a horrible addition to the Neverwinter world.
This is going to be a long post, so if you intend to comment on these ideas, I suggest you sit back, grab a cup of coffee and dig in.
Why Gauntlgrym is Bad Game Design:
- Combining PvE and PvP aspects of the game lessens enjoyability for players.
This aspect of the new content is clear. Combine two elements of the game to make something new. Sounds fresh and fun, right?
That is, unless you don't enjoy PvP. If you're a player that prefers to only beat up on the beasts, you might feel a little out of sorts when your guild needs you to fight 20 players so that you can access the dwarf king. You might have specced your character for specifically for PvE encounters and now feel extremely weak from that Rogue's Thrashing Blade.
Or, unless you don't enjoy PvE. If you grinded to 60 only to enjoy the PvP aspect of the game, this content release has got to be disappointing. What was heralded as 20 man PvP content is really just a stepping stone in between two PvE phases, to fight a PvE boss, for PvE loot.
Lastly, forming a balanced group of 20 players with proper specs to handle both PvP and PvE aspects of the game will be quite challenging. Group compositions for PvP and PvE vary extremely in this game. A good example is the specifications of Control Wizards: In PvE, tossing mobs off the side is everything and good Control Wizards are specced as such. In PvP, however, tossing characters off ledges is nigh impossible. Are Control Wizards expected to make sacrifices to be able to compete in this new environment? The same applies to GF (tank vs dps spec) and the other classes. - Large Time Constraint does not match quick pace of Neverwinter
It is pretty clear from the video that we will be spending a lot of time in Gauntlgrym if we want to get the full reward. The first phase, being timed, will have no option to be sped up by players. The second phase, involving pvp, will have no option to be sped up by raid groups except for griefing, exploiting, or finishing the first phase only to have your opponent quit out of the second. The last phase, a normal dungeon, will most likely look to be hastened as much as possible.
Why is this a bad idea? As it stands, Neverwinter is the king of the log-in, play, log-out mmo's. With fast story quests, rotating daily options, short daily quests and instant queues for both dungeons and pvp, Neverwinter really caters to speed. Players buy into this as well: just look at how level 60's have been handling dungeon delves. Gauntlgrym, on the other hand, will be anything but fast. Judging from the trailer, we can expect at least 2 hours of play time to complete all three phases of the event. On top of that, gathering a 20 man raid capable of completing both PvE and PvP objectives is certainly time consuming in its own right. And finally, matchmaking 20 man parties will not come quickly. - PvP is Not Balanced Well Enough to Impact End Game PvE
PvP in Neverwinter has some serious problems. Great Weapon Fighters are nigh useless, control wizards can lock targets down indefinitely, plaguefire and tenebrous enchantments rule the field, recovery as a stat is useless and 5 rogues can 1 shot an entire opposing team. I understand that a balance patch is on the way, but do we really want to tie the pinnacle achievement in Neverwinter (this raid will hopefully be the toughest challenge in the game) to a 20 on 20 pvp fest in the games current state?
This is a subject that I could talk about for a long time. This post is already extremely long, so I'm going to cut my thoughts on the imbalance of pvp further. There are plenty of posts on this topic already.
I also highly suspect that 20 man PvP will be too chaotic to really enjoy. 40 players on the same field (four times what we've experienced so far in the game) is bound to be full of frustratingly quick deaths, especially for melee classes. While there will certainly be a sense of motivation to win the round, I can see 5 CW's dominating an entire match. - Gear (As Advertised) Does Not Meet Challenge
The video describes the possible rewards as such: Tier 2 for winning PvP and Tier 1 for losing PvP. It's immediately clear to me that every group that loses the second round (the pvp round) is instantly going to quit the dungeon and re queue. No raid group (especially one that is forced to compete against another) is going to accept a player with Tier 1 gear. As it stands, T1 gear is cheap and relatively easy to come by. I mean come on, 4k glory is equivalent to completing three tiers of 20 man events? I don't think so.
Also, if Castle Never gear (commonly referred to as Tier 2.5) eclipses the quality of Gauntlgrym gear, you can expect no one to play it.
What (in my opinion) Would Be Better
- Remove PvP Aspect from Gauntlgrym, leave PvE race (phase 1)
I actually quite like the idea of a PvE race to determine the quality of dungeon your raid gets to participate in. While it will probably end up just being frustrating (20 people repeating 1 phase over and over to get to phase 2 is a good way for guilds to disband), it is a new idea to MMO's and could be fun. This event would cater to those that enjoy PvE while adding a new element to the game that is different from simply diving into a dungeon. It would also still restrict the time it would take to complete the raid. Lastly, group compositions could be focused on the PvE element of the game - Add some form of RANKED PvP
Neverwinter is crying for Ranked PvP. Nay, Neverwinter deserves Ranked PvP.
PvP in this game, as it stands, serves only to provide newly leveled characters with T1 gear and a farming place for those interested in PvP titles. There is literally no challenge if you queue with 5 players that know what they are doing. PvP, as its set to be in Gauntlgrym, will be a clusterbomb of a stepping stone.
Ranked PvP adds a competitive aspect to the game that is self sustaining. As long as there is a server wide list of the top PvP teams and your PvP team has a ranking relative to those, you will see a lot of activity in this area.
This environment will also allow players to tap into the true balance of PvP. Having organized teams with organized strategies before the match starts will allow us to see what combinations of skills are truly the most powerful. As it stands now, there is little motivation to play or align specs, gear or even strategy because the most simplified strategy will defeat a queued pick-up-group.
Also, Neverwinter's 5 on 5 set up is the perfect place for ranked 5 on 5 teams. Hell, remove the points and throw 5 players into an arena and see who comes out on top. It seems to me that the game design required for ranked PvP is simple and could yield huge rewards when it comes to the popularity of the game. It also adds another avenue to release top end gear - just make it take a long time. - Balance the Game before Adding New Content
While a more general, larger point than those that came before this one, I feel it is important to make this clear:
Neverwinter is not balanced. Neverwinter is not complete. Neverwinter is full of bugs and exploits.
If I were the head game lead of Neverwinter I'd look at the following areas before I even dreamed of adding new content:- Add Invisible Walls to All Dungeon Edges (to prevent wall hacking, not punting of mobs)
- Release Balance Patch (so GWF and GF deserve a spot in groups)
- Release the Ranger Class (balancing content for a new class retroactively creates problems)
- Improve Auction House and Gateway Interface and Reliability
- Give all players 1 respec token (throwing this in for good measure)
Hopefully some of these things come out in the 'major update' before the release on 20th? However, I fully expect these two updates to be combined so we won't see the new class balance until the new raid is released.
When the game is in a solid, end game state, new content can be added. The reality is that the game has a TON of content already. Gaining Best in Slot Gear, Enchantments, Mounts, Companion and Runestones is not a small feat if you don't spend any money (err, wait, did I just stumble on something?). I know that I would rather enjoy the content that is currently released for longer if it means a more solid addition is made to the game.
Thanks for reading. Feel free to comment below.
Post edited by geohin on
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Comments
/10charlimit
EDIT:
I'm no longer going to be replying to this thread so I wanted to make a couple things clear:
1. I understand that some players will enjoy the mix of two content paradigms. However, is this worth alienating two sections of your player base from this content?
2. I am a huge supporter of PvP in this game. In fact, the most disappointing part of the Gantlgrym preview was the fact that there is no stand-alone PvP content. I expected this due to Rhix's daily quest and was really looking forward to a new PvP challenge and new PvP gear. Right now the PvP aspect of Gauntlgrym feels like it is a stepping stone to get to the final boss rather than exciting new content.
Thanks again for reading.
let the hair pulling, doom crying and angst begin in earnest. :rolleyes:
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my ideas instead of commenting on the overall activity on the forums.
:rolleyes:
IZ U AN ORACLE!!!
or just stating the obvious
The PvE part being building the catapults, getting the Fire Giant (possibly) and any other thing... heck, maybe even training mobs into the opposition...
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Thanks for posting an opinion that was worth the read. I tend to agree with your assessment. It's a shame that this thread is inevitably going to get derailed by the histrionics prevalent in the numerous other threads on Gauntlgrym.
ha, ha, ha.
Some of the previous comments about the zone had sounded like the latter, the video makes it seem more like the former.
I'd imagine, since we don't have factions, that it'll be your group. But we won't know until we get more info, or it's released completely. ^_^
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
/10charreq
Some quotes from the video that tend towards the former:
"...accomplishing a number of tasks for the coming PvP battle."
"The victorious faction in phase 2 reaps greater rewards in the final stage"
Plus on top of that there is a resiliency buff that carries over based on the group's phase 1 performance. I really think the events are all tied together.
I play a TR. How on earth could I suck at PvP?
Yes, all three phases are tied into each other. Phase 1 affects Phase 2. Your performance in both of those phases affects Phase 3 and what quality of loot you get a shot at.
I wonder how draws are going to be decided. If Team A crushes Team B in Phase 1 but gets crushed by Team B in Phase 2, how will the outcome of Phase 3 be decided? The more I think about this, the messier it seems lol
Re-watched the video... I think when they say "Overall score" it means for Phase 2. Basically whoever wins Phase 2 gets to go to the Dwarf King's crypt for the T2 loot.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
It is not an assumption if I follow the point with supporting arguments. You sound like a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, by the way.
I'm providing my opinion to help better the game. If you don't like it, don't read it.
No, it's an assumption because you simply stated that mixing pve and pvp lessens the enjoyment of players. You made the ASSUMPTION that players wouldnt enjoy this because of opinions 1- who cares how many you had, they're all baseless.
Must every piece of content be for every player? Typically any kind of raid is aimed at a very small subset of the user base (I recall WoW developers once stating that their top raids were seen by less than 5% of the players), so it is perhaps a good thing to create something where some people will only want to do the first part, some will want to do the first two parts, and some will want to sit through the entire three parts?
you're right i only read the first quarter of your wall of text
If you don't have the mental capacity to make it through two pages of text, please stop commenting on this post.
It *IS* an assumption, no matter how you follow it. You are ASSUMING that combining two aspects of a game will lessen the enjoyability for players. I, as well as noosed, obviously, think this will improve our enjoyability. See what I did there? When you make hasty assumptions like that, your 'well-thought out' post loses pretty much all of its credibility.
long story short, don't assume anything.
I supported the argument with the following facts:
- There are players that only enjoy PvP
- There are players that only enjoy PvE
- It will be difficult to assemble a 20 man raid balanced for both endeavors.
- It will be difficult to optimally spec characters to participate in both events.
Clear enough?
EDIT:
It's okay if you dis-agree with the first point of my post. I accept that. I won't address this 'assumption' any longer.
You're a funny guy if you think trolling the boards is a better use of your time than making an opinion post on the future of the game.
I just finished Inferno by Dan Brown. Good, quick read.
Then obviously a statement like "combining pve and pvp will lessen the enjoyment of players" not some players...this means all players. Is a giant, terrible, stupid assumption.
Clear enough?
Later Carebear, have fun in high-sec