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The problem with Guardian Fighters (and how I'd fix them)
ghestapw
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Here's the real problem with GFs and how I'd fix them if I were in charge:
For all classes - tab is a defining power, shift is a movement/avoidance.
For GF - tab is a nearly useless ability, shift is our defining power (which is also not a movement)
The main problem is that in essence, GFs aren't really tanks per say. At best, a GF can hold solid aggro one one mob in a pack about 80% of the time. When grouped with players of a similar gear, over time, a cleric will rip aggro off a GF. The GF must consistently use snap aggro abilities to return threat to him. This means that his snap aggro abilities can't be used for things like adds.
I've played tanks in several mmos for 13 years now. It is, I feel safe to say, one thing I know and I know well. The guardian fighter in this game is only a 'tank' in comparison to the other classes. They are only marginally better at holding aggro as a whole better than other classes. But then you realize that it doesn't matter. With the chaotic and hectic nature of the way combat works in neverwinter (and keeping in mind that it's beta so this could change some) you don't need a tank. Finally the problem is as a tank, it's a very weak one at best. Currently as I write this my wizard with >10k gs and 12 con has only a few thousand less hp then my GF who has <12k gs and 26 con. About a 7 swing between 21k and 28k (roughly). Now, that's all well and good until you realize that really with the damage output of some mobs in castle never mean that's easily a single hit on trash mobs. So being a tank only really gives you one additional hit. What?
So, where does that leave GFs? You've got a class that can't really hold solid group aggro, in a game where you don't even need a class to hold solid aggro. Any serious group end game laughs at GFs and takes 2 clerics in place of a cleric / gf.
How could this be fixed?
1. increase their innate threat. Forget about 'marking' mobs. Give guardian fighters an innate threat increase. Their every abilities should come with an innate 20% bonus to threat (or 10% or 30% or whatever). This would have two advantages - first it would increase the actual use of the tank by making them able to hold a rock solid aggro one one mob if they focus on it, or much better group control via Cleave / ae skills on packs (something they can not currently do with any solid ability). Secondly it would make the at will abilities more situational. Ask any GF and they will tell you they use at best 3 at wills, Cleave for max dps during trash, tide of iron for bosses, and threatening rush for movement / marking. If marking wasn't necessary it would make threatening rush far less powerful (imho it's the single best at will GFs have by a huge margin) and people would start to swap out abilities depending on taste and situation.
2. Remove 2 things - delay on guard regen and tide of iron's guard boost. Currently one of the few semi viable strategies with a GF is to 'turtle tank' ie, grab a boss, hold down tab, and just spam tide of iron/shield slam in between other guard building abilities like enforced threat and iron warrior. But even when doing this you have very weak aggro and zero on other mobs. It makes GFs very marginalized as you can't even do the one thing well. Remove the six second delay on guard regen, make it a constant, even if you have to slow down the rate of regen on it. Further give other encounter abilities the ability to regen guard meter (into the fray seems like a natural choice) so that GFs can attempt to keep their guard up without simply spamming one at will, it makes the class more dynamic and enjoyable.
3. Remove 'mark' as an ability. I understand that this is a holdover from the 4th edition ability, but it doesn't really work well in the game. Plus, with the increased threat I suggested in point 1, it's not needed. Get rid of it completely. Then move block to the tab ability as our defining class skill. Then give us a shift movement ability. I'd suggest a short 'hop'. Even if it was half the distance of the CW blink, cleric slide, or thief roll, it would be something drastically needed. There are some abilities that can absolutely destroy the GF's guard meter. But if we've got guard up, we can't move, and have to take those attacks to the face. If we're holding aggro, we should be allowed the chance to try to avoid an attack as well. In addition this would bring us more in line with the other classes and close the gap of worthlessness that the GF currently brings to any party.
4. Give GFs an innate HP boost. On the rare chance that I do get to a pack before the other classes who have speed enhancers via shift, I take it on the face only marginally better than they would, and arguably far less than say a rogue. Stacking defense / deflection obviously helps, but if you get a double pack of drow with two driders, and the cleric isn't right on the spot with heals / shield, you go down almost as fast as anyone else. Arguably far quicker than a rogue that pops bait and switch. If we're tanks we should have the hp to tank.
In closing I'd say that I absolutely understand the desire and drive of the dev's to get rid of the 'holy trinity' in MMOS (tank cleric and 3xdps) which leads to a group failing or succeeding based on the ability to find the right balance of those classes. But in doing that, you've completely marginalized the GF as a whole. Since tanks aren't needed and because we aren't really very effective as tanks anyways in this game, we are on the whole, a worthless class. This should be fixed.
Well that's my feelings on the current state of things with GFs. Thanks for reading.
For all classes - tab is a defining power, shift is a movement/avoidance.
For GF - tab is a nearly useless ability, shift is our defining power (which is also not a movement)
The main problem is that in essence, GFs aren't really tanks per say. At best, a GF can hold solid aggro one one mob in a pack about 80% of the time. When grouped with players of a similar gear, over time, a cleric will rip aggro off a GF. The GF must consistently use snap aggro abilities to return threat to him. This means that his snap aggro abilities can't be used for things like adds.
I've played tanks in several mmos for 13 years now. It is, I feel safe to say, one thing I know and I know well. The guardian fighter in this game is only a 'tank' in comparison to the other classes. They are only marginally better at holding aggro as a whole better than other classes. But then you realize that it doesn't matter. With the chaotic and hectic nature of the way combat works in neverwinter (and keeping in mind that it's beta so this could change some) you don't need a tank. Finally the problem is as a tank, it's a very weak one at best. Currently as I write this my wizard with >10k gs and 12 con has only a few thousand less hp then my GF who has <12k gs and 26 con. About a 7 swing between 21k and 28k (roughly). Now, that's all well and good until you realize that really with the damage output of some mobs in castle never mean that's easily a single hit on trash mobs. So being a tank only really gives you one additional hit. What?
So, where does that leave GFs? You've got a class that can't really hold solid group aggro, in a game where you don't even need a class to hold solid aggro. Any serious group end game laughs at GFs and takes 2 clerics in place of a cleric / gf.
How could this be fixed?
1. increase their innate threat. Forget about 'marking' mobs. Give guardian fighters an innate threat increase. Their every abilities should come with an innate 20% bonus to threat (or 10% or 30% or whatever). This would have two advantages - first it would increase the actual use of the tank by making them able to hold a rock solid aggro one one mob if they focus on it, or much better group control via Cleave / ae skills on packs (something they can not currently do with any solid ability). Secondly it would make the at will abilities more situational. Ask any GF and they will tell you they use at best 3 at wills, Cleave for max dps during trash, tide of iron for bosses, and threatening rush for movement / marking. If marking wasn't necessary it would make threatening rush far less powerful (imho it's the single best at will GFs have by a huge margin) and people would start to swap out abilities depending on taste and situation.
2. Remove 2 things - delay on guard regen and tide of iron's guard boost. Currently one of the few semi viable strategies with a GF is to 'turtle tank' ie, grab a boss, hold down tab, and just spam tide of iron/shield slam in between other guard building abilities like enforced threat and iron warrior. But even when doing this you have very weak aggro and zero on other mobs. It makes GFs very marginalized as you can't even do the one thing well. Remove the six second delay on guard regen, make it a constant, even if you have to slow down the rate of regen on it. Further give other encounter abilities the ability to regen guard meter (into the fray seems like a natural choice) so that GFs can attempt to keep their guard up without simply spamming one at will, it makes the class more dynamic and enjoyable.
3. Remove 'mark' as an ability. I understand that this is a holdover from the 4th edition ability, but it doesn't really work well in the game. Plus, with the increased threat I suggested in point 1, it's not needed. Get rid of it completely. Then move block to the tab ability as our defining class skill. Then give us a shift movement ability. I'd suggest a short 'hop'. Even if it was half the distance of the CW blink, cleric slide, or thief roll, it would be something drastically needed. There are some abilities that can absolutely destroy the GF's guard meter. But if we've got guard up, we can't move, and have to take those attacks to the face. If we're holding aggro, we should be allowed the chance to try to avoid an attack as well. In addition this would bring us more in line with the other classes and close the gap of worthlessness that the GF currently brings to any party.
4. Give GFs an innate HP boost. On the rare chance that I do get to a pack before the other classes who have speed enhancers via shift, I take it on the face only marginally better than they would, and arguably far less than say a rogue. Stacking defense / deflection obviously helps, but if you get a double pack of drow with two driders, and the cleric isn't right on the spot with heals / shield, you go down almost as fast as anyone else. Arguably far quicker than a rogue that pops bait and switch. If we're tanks we should have the hp to tank.
In closing I'd say that I absolutely understand the desire and drive of the dev's to get rid of the 'holy trinity' in MMOS (tank cleric and 3xdps) which leads to a group failing or succeeding based on the ability to find the right balance of those classes. But in doing that, you've completely marginalized the GF as a whole. Since tanks aren't needed and because we aren't really very effective as tanks anyways in this game, we are on the whole, a worthless class. This should be fixed.
Well that's my feelings on the current state of things with GFs. Thanks for reading.
Rhev@ghestapw - Co-GL <iTyrant> - ityrantguild.com - Beholder server
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
Post edited by ghestapw on
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If there was one class that is in a good place and doesn't need messing with, it's GF. Aggro tables can be changed but mechanically GFs are very well off.
After all the time I took to write out the detailed exacting reasons why gaurdian fighters need to be tweaked, I'm not surprised that this is the response from the hoi polloi.
Observed point (note i don't call it a 'fact' because I don't have hard numbers) - GFs are not needed for groups.
Rationale - there is nothing a GF brings to a group that won't be much better served by a second cleric or CW, or even TR / GWF.
Corollary to this point - Guardian fighters are not desirable for groups. Successful Castle Never groups run without GFs.
I did not post saying "Buff GFs because I want to be powerful!" I also have a CW that I also enjoy playing, and will continue to do so till my GF is needed (which hasn't happened yet). My post was to address the problems with GFs, most notably the lack of threat, and the fact that the class mechanic is broken. ie Tab is NOT a class defining utility feature the way all other classes are.
Several things are wrong with your post.
1. "...before castle never..." - yes, my GF could probably do a T1 with my cleric buddy and a dps. You get to a certain point where gear outweighs any game mechanics.
2. "...had much difficulty..." - yes, but you have had some haven't you? Mobs that will just decide after a little while 'well, time to go beat on the cleric.' no matter what you've done and what you do to it. Healing aggro for multiple players is almost impossible to overcome by a GF unless you're focusing on one mob and only one mob.
3. "...i go with mates..." - yes, going with players who know how to play helps a lot. But does that mean that the class should only be restricted to maximum potential to players who group with competent players? How about the casual player who wants to 'tank' and queues for a random dungeon? I never ever queue randomly ever. After the third time I got group kicked in a row hearing "kick the GF, we need a 2nd DC!" I made that decision.
Trickshaw said that GF is in a 'good place' but my experiences, and the experiences of literally every other GF I've spoken with, beg to differ. Since I've explained my posts in great detail and he's essentially said 'huk huk la~ ur fine' I'm going to say that the class needs work.
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
If GF was fixed and we got all the threat we wanted it wouldn't help. This is why... we would not be able to survive 20+ adds beating on us. We do not have dodge so we are horrible kiters.
The problem with GF is much more than threat.
Well there's your problem
P.S. I find it funny how everyone generally complains about all MMOs being a carbon copies of each other, but the moment someone tries something new, everyone goes "nooes, bring it baaack!"
Allow me to respond in kind.
Since you essentially said, "Waaaaaah! Herpderp WEESUX! Derrrr... /drool" I'm going to say the class is fine.
I know it's hard to see through the gargantuan pile if butthurt you're choking down right now but I EXPLICITLY stated Aggro tables can be adjusted. Which would completely fix GF viability in groups. MECHANICALLY GFs are fine. You have arguably the single best AoE in the game and one of the cheesiest single target abilities in the game, Knight's Challenge.
Your dailies are a bit meh but given the fact you generate AP faster than any other class... what do you expect? GFs primary issue is Aggro. Aggro has NOTHING to do with GFs MECHANICALLY. That's a simple fix. The issue is you can't hold aggro terribly well on top of dungeon design punishing players who clear trash.
Neither if which require changing GF one iota.
So next time you decide to mouth off: stop... and pull your head out of your ***.
Aggro is a tank problem. Not surviving aggro is a healer problem. Not surviving aggro because your healer has everything on CD is a DPS problem.
Anything else is a gear, balance or derp issue.
He only thinks HIS class needs a BUFF because he don't know how to play GWF
GWF & GF are fine minus a few bugs that need to be fixed. If you can't hold aggro as a GF then you are specced wrong, inadequate DPS/TPS Generation, playing with a bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or have no idea how to generate threat.
Find a new class that you find fun to play and stop the *****ing!
I've seen things stay on like glue, and I've seen things fall off for no reason at all. Mark, no mark, threat added attacks, etc. Simply put, as was mentioned, the aggro table is broken. It becomes even more obvious when you analyze group activity versus who had aggro---sometimes it's relevant, but just as often there is virtually no connection outside of untouched adds chasing clerics in circles.
Even enjoying the class, I'm not sure which ability is arguably the "best" AE in the game. There are cap limits on virtually all of them outside of the daily. That said, cleave is a better SMALL group at will than anything a GWF has, which is a pretty dumb situation to say the least.
The guy who mentioned not being able to survive aggroing all the adds is right, the learn to play issue would stem solely from even trying to do it in the first place---you learn that you shouldn't. Your guard bar is too small and your cleric doesn't have that many hotkeys. You'll melt as surely as any other class that tries to stand there and take it.
Finally, and probably the best point in the original post, our tab ability sucks. Unlike other abilities that suck, this one is stuck to the key. Other attacks that mark are virtually always better choices, and give damage(read:threat) right along with the mark. Something, just about anything, would make a better tab ability. If a person really wants a no damage, ranged aggro booster with no cooldown, let'em put it on their encounter bar.
So while I agree that the class plays out pretty well, it has room for improvement.
While I guess you could change the class to fit the content, designing smarter content would probably be the better solution would it not? I mean, the boss mechanics in this game don't really...exist for the most part.
TR is designed as Single Target - Should be on Boss or Elite Adds. - Don't need 2 of them on team - 1 is enough.
CW is used to control the adds but is not a tank. If mobs get loose or hit by random attack, skill gets interrupted, etc... they die and now cause team wipe.
GF is your team tank with mob control, taunt for those oh-**** moments, decent DPS, debuff or team dps boost and all around bad ***. If your team can't find a good GF then you are stuck with a 2nd DC.
Shoot I would pick 2 good GF's over a ****ty TR / CW any day!
this is the opinion of one person
If some popular streamer says a team comp of 4 DCs & 1 TR was OP and could clear ever boss in 5 minutes. Then some scrub would make a post on the forums and you would then have a bunch of people trying this team comp and saying it's the best and only way.
Just ignore the trendy comps and play the class you enjoy.
Its saddening, but not surprising that you obviously haven't read the post then. I never said they suck, I said they have problems and then went into detail about what I see as those problems. Then I suggested solutions for how I would fix them. I didn't just post 2 or 3 sentences like you did.
As for 'mouthing off' Hello, beta? This is the period where the devs are constantly tweaking the game. I didn't come here saying WAHHHH WAHHH H NERF ROGUES! WAAAAHHHH I WANT PWERS! I stated what I saw as an issue with one of the two classes I play, gave my opinion, and what I thought would take to fix it. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
Get the T2 Gear, Greater Enchants and then come and ***** that the class needs a buff.
and than well be stuck with stack CW and perma cc all targets....oh wait...
I think you're taking my side, but as I mentioned my GF is over 12.2k GS and is Castle Never level play. So I do know what I'm talking about.
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
Yet quite honestly until the Dev's say otherwise I'm guessing they aren't going for the holy trinity in all aspects for the "tank/cleric/dps x3" model, more of the 1st-3rd addition PnP rules where the "fighter" was basically dps wearing plate. There was no "aggro" table or taunt needed in that model, that is ONLY if this is what the Dev's were intending...however to play the devils advocate, if there wasn't any hard aggro tables intended per say , then the ones that are broken are actually the cleric class for over aggroing.
As I've seen before by others on the forums, our class can put out some good dps. It's just when the idea of going the traditional tank route do things get wonky.
IMO, that being said. Working with what I have at the moment at least until mechanics change, Im ok with snap aggro as a form of soft mitigation for others, I try to treat our shield block as our version of the "slide/blink/roll"
Though on the flipside, I hold the Dev's responsible since they put the tools in place to "become" more of a traditional tank via feat/paragon/power choices and not yet put the mechanics for that to work yet in game.
IMO if they have no intentions of changing the current model, then I'd guess as an "easy" fix, I do like the idea of moving away from mark as a tab power, make it shield block, and just put in a moving ability like the rest.
I haven't done T2 so I don't want to assume its the end for all GF. Unless the current model truly is stacking clerics/CW. Because I've heard plenty of GF doing the content and/or I'm just overly optimistic lol.
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I would disagree. If your damage intake is higher than a healing clerics heal output, there is nothing the cleric can do to save you.
anyhow you know there are fundamental problems when its considered bad to spec the tanking class to tank.
I have three GF's at 60 now one in T-2 gear. I've done CN runs. For that ideal 2 DC, 2 CW, 1 Rogue party i find a DPS GF can replace the rogue. You offer more CC, interrupts, AOE damage and still do some pretty good single target damage and if using the right dailiys cant be knocked around and can heal yourself easily on a whim. (Though not nearly as much single target as a good TR) Throw Into the Fray in there and it makes the CW's happy. That being said, Threat is a joke and the tanking spec is a joke. I have a dwarf GF with the tanking spec done to the best of my ability as well as threat generation. You just can't keep aggro off the cleric no matter what you try. AND....to me this is kind of odd, you're maybe....10-20% more durable than the Conq specced GF, except you kill things at one third of the speed. Almost all of your survivability comes from blocking. Not reductions, HP or even the OP tanking stat when you really start to get knowing how things work: Parry. The other two paragon trees need a total revamp, Conq is fine as working as intended as far as i'm concerned.
You want to taunt and spank and absorb damage? The protector Tree needs to be revamped so we can do this.
You want to make the party more efficient, able to survive and put out more damage while you're a hybrid of the Conq/Protector trees? The need to fix the Tactican tree so you can do this. RIght now GF is Conq or go home. It's amazing in PVP right now, even a crappy one can destroy a decked out CW (Block choke, stun lock and dead) ANd I find no issues topping DPS charts because of Cleave OP.
The Protector just sucks and so does the Tactician.
:P Agreed the class is fine and balanced. We just need our feats fixed so everything works as intended and should be good 2 go.
Simple issue is the more damage the party takes the more threat the Cleric generates. For a GF to stay ahead of the healer you need to be pumping out DPS. When you are blocking you are not DPSing and so you drop even more in threat tables.
Con & Tact are better specs because you don't want to block and just deal out DPS and spam those dailies!
CW should be Slowing/CC the mobs while GF tanks/DPS trash/elites and DC keeps GF up.
Remember when I said:
**cough cough**
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=907501
- Threat generation on all abilities has been increased by 35%.
Guess I the devs don't agree with you huh?
In fact with the exception for an obvious bug fix, literally every change to GF that's coming is a buff, where the other classes are getting a mix of changes, positive and negative.
Personally I'd still like to see a movement bound to shift, and Tab be our guard button. But this might help some.
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
The cleric aoe heal threat nerf next patch should help deal with the latter problem, but so long as it is more viable to ignore guard and just go conqueror I would say GF is not in a good spot.
I agree with many of your suggestions, in fact the addition of a short hop is exactly what I had in mind in my list of suggestions. I strongly disagree with removing the delay on guard meter recovery, I would suggest removing guard meter recovery entirely, or making it scale with regeneration and buffing the at will guard recovery powers (who even uses shield slam, so bad).
That, and for tanking to be useful there needs to be some form or diminishing return on cc effects, or it will always be more viable to keep monsters controlled instead of tanking their blows. No damage is always better then mitigated damage, and there's not enough ucontrollable monsters (bosses who don't need to be tanked) around to warrant taking a tank.