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What's allowed and what's not? What is considered exploitation?
noyouwont
Member Posts: 56
I require some clarification on some subjects.
Am I allowed to climb typically out-of-bounds areas?
--I've been playing MMO's for a while. I'm a big fan of using the terrain and the map as an additional dynamic to the fights I take part in. I like pushing myself into harder situations, kiting enormous packs of enemies over cliff faces and around the nooks and crannies. Utilizing line-of-sight and avoiding the AI is a big part of my game.
--I like to explore! I am a rooftop ninja!
Node-farming instanced areas?
--In World of Warcraft I was the 6th player in the US to get the gold cap (not an easily accomplished feat). I have 1700 hours on my Diablo 3 Wizard. I just don't play games. I tear them apart. In a game economy such as the one in Neverwinter, it is more profitable for me to solo farm the most resource rich areas than it is for me to run in parties. I cannot rely on other players to be as efficient as me. What am I going to do then? I usually find the most profitable area that requires the least amount of my brain to farm and play it like a time trial on Mario Kart. I usually have a movie or another video game going on when I do this (because 1000+ hours in any game is hard to keep your mind on the target).
--Why instanced areas? Simply because I do not have to contend with the rest of the playing population. Again, you guys just slow me down.
Using map NPCs to fight enemies?
--I can pull 150 mobs and let the guards tank them while I spank them. You guys have a problem with this? I once pulled a raid boss for 45 minutes into a major city to watch the havok. I've never been happier.
Third-party apps?
--Where do you draw the line on Macros? Loops? Honestly, my keyboard software can play this game by itself. I don't go that far, obviously, but how much automation is good? How much is bad? As a TR, I find that my sweet spot is usually a rotation that I have to do over and over and over. I would rather not have to press the same keys so redundantly, so I will probably be using keyboard macros. This will be done using the software that was provided with my keyboard. In addition to this, I've seen an app in the Rogue forums that keeps track of my bleed stacks. I would like to use this as well. Is it allowed?
Playing the market?
--Am I allowed to flip items in the AH for profit? Am I allowed to flip Zen for profit?
If I put my time and effort into your game, I would like to know what I am allowed to do in the first place, because it seems to me (according to Reddit and other sites online) that you guys are pretty much dishing out punishment to your players without clearly defining what is considered exploitive and what is not. A lot of what I'm seeing tends to be clever use of the game that you guys created within the boundaries that you have created, and nothing more. If you do not want players to do things a certain way, then you should make it so they cannot do it, rather than punishing them for finding a way to get ahead faster. If a lot of players are like me, the will probably go on google and find the quickest way to get to the top the fastest, and some of it is obviously a little shady, and some of it is like, wow, that's smart. I don't want to do anything that causes me to lose my character and my hard work, but I'm still going to find something that has me way ahead of the curve (because there is no point for me playing a game with a level playing field). What do you guys think?
Am I allowed to climb typically out-of-bounds areas?
--I've been playing MMO's for a while. I'm a big fan of using the terrain and the map as an additional dynamic to the fights I take part in. I like pushing myself into harder situations, kiting enormous packs of enemies over cliff faces and around the nooks and crannies. Utilizing line-of-sight and avoiding the AI is a big part of my game.
--I like to explore! I am a rooftop ninja!
Node-farming instanced areas?
--In World of Warcraft I was the 6th player in the US to get the gold cap (not an easily accomplished feat). I have 1700 hours on my Diablo 3 Wizard. I just don't play games. I tear them apart. In a game economy such as the one in Neverwinter, it is more profitable for me to solo farm the most resource rich areas than it is for me to run in parties. I cannot rely on other players to be as efficient as me. What am I going to do then? I usually find the most profitable area that requires the least amount of my brain to farm and play it like a time trial on Mario Kart. I usually have a movie or another video game going on when I do this (because 1000+ hours in any game is hard to keep your mind on the target).
--Why instanced areas? Simply because I do not have to contend with the rest of the playing population. Again, you guys just slow me down.
Using map NPCs to fight enemies?
--I can pull 150 mobs and let the guards tank them while I spank them. You guys have a problem with this? I once pulled a raid boss for 45 minutes into a major city to watch the havok. I've never been happier.
Third-party apps?
--Where do you draw the line on Macros? Loops? Honestly, my keyboard software can play this game by itself. I don't go that far, obviously, but how much automation is good? How much is bad? As a TR, I find that my sweet spot is usually a rotation that I have to do over and over and over. I would rather not have to press the same keys so redundantly, so I will probably be using keyboard macros. This will be done using the software that was provided with my keyboard. In addition to this, I've seen an app in the Rogue forums that keeps track of my bleed stacks. I would like to use this as well. Is it allowed?
Playing the market?
--Am I allowed to flip items in the AH for profit? Am I allowed to flip Zen for profit?
If I put my time and effort into your game, I would like to know what I am allowed to do in the first place, because it seems to me (according to Reddit and other sites online) that you guys are pretty much dishing out punishment to your players without clearly defining what is considered exploitive and what is not. A lot of what I'm seeing tends to be clever use of the game that you guys created within the boundaries that you have created, and nothing more. If you do not want players to do things a certain way, then you should make it so they cannot do it, rather than punishing them for finding a way to get ahead faster. If a lot of players are like me, the will probably go on google and find the quickest way to get to the top the fastest, and some of it is obviously a little shady, and some of it is like, wow, that's smart. I don't want to do anything that causes me to lose my character and my hard work, but I'm still going to find something that has me way ahead of the curve (because there is no point for me playing a game with a level playing field). What do you guys think?
Post edited by noyouwont on
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Yes. I myself sell low, knowing someone will buy and repost it higher, but hey, at least I got my AD out of it.
(Not really, but I really feel like using that image this morning...
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Yes Macros can be fun, but in a video game such as this it's just plain laziness. All your "Hard work" means nothing as soon as you start using Macros for god sakes you just press some buttons or are you one of those people that believe just breathing is hard. Your attitude is one that truly shouldn't be around others in a community such as this and people get banned and kicked because this is still a open beta all our jobs as players at this stage is to report bugs and suggest fixes not exploit the hell out of them. I believe it's safe to say this is one game where hacking and exploiting just to get ahead will have harsh consequences for the people doing it.
1) If you can get there, it's probably not exploiting. If it's something the devs didn't anticipate, they'll fix it in due time. Otherwise have fun. Note: this doesn't include exploiting clipping issues or other bugs. I'm taking you at your word that it's "If I jump, here, here, and here, I can get on the roof of that building." type things.
2) Farm away. I don't see any problem with using the spawns in an instanced area.
3) If it's programmed to work that way there's no issue. I wouldn't be surprised to see if the drops/exp get taken away at some point though.
4) I've always defined "Bots" as being completely automated. Ex. If you push a button and the macro activates all your cooldowns isn't botting because you have to manually activate it. If you write a piece of code that activates a cooldown whenever it becomes available without you having to manually press a key, that's Botting. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me. The macros on a keyboard should be fine though.
5) Feel free to play the market and become rich. That's why it exists. Just don't exploit bugs that allow you to buy things for negative AD, duplicate items, etc. and you'll be fine.
I otherwise agree with Morsitans. If a level playing field is something that makes you not enjoy a game, single-player type experiences are where it's at. Being ahead of the curve is one thing. Tipping the game to the point where you can't reasonably say, "This is how I got here. You can do it too." is something else entirely.
So if you found a hole in the map where enemies couldn't target you and were killing them from there, that's an exploit.
Leading an army of mobs into a city, whilst not an exploit, could be considered grieving.
As for node farming in instances, that's a grey area I'm not going to comment on.
The gameplay in any game after so long becomes so monotonous to me that the only draw to a game is possession or domination of content. Both of these things require efficiency, and humans are not as efficient as machines, which is why we create them in the first place. One could argue the case that programs written by individuals are just extensions of their will.
In most MMOs if enemies can't get to you they will evade all attacks (like if you attack from a rooftop). Also in most MMOs you can't knock enemies off cliffs for cheap kills. Why would one of those be an exploit when they both seem to be intentionally designed like that?
The general rule of thumb is: if it's too good to be true, it is.
Common sense reigns supreme in this discussion because there's no way to define all exploits under one descriptive sentence. Each one is unique and as different as one another as human beings are different from each other.
Am I allowed to climb typically out-of-bounds areas?
You are allowed to but if you do so in order to bypass large portions of dungeons then it very well could be exploiting. If you feel an area is intended to be out-of-bounds and it allows you to bypass large parts of the dungeon faster chances are it's an exploit.
Node-farming instanced areas?
Node-Farming and Monster Killing isn't going to be the best way to gain profit. Dungeon Delves will be far superior. If you want to run around tearing apart locations go for it but it will be far less rewarding
Using map NPCs to fight enemies?
I have a feeling you will find this rather inneffective as if guards get the final hit you won't gain any experience as well as the fact monsters will give far less experience and drops than quests, dungeons delves, PvP or other group content.
Third-party apps?
Terms of Service Common sense rules this one. If it gives you an unfair advantage it's not permitted. Without contacting the CM's the general rule on most MMO's is one key = one action. I would say no you are not permitted to use any macro's which automatically press keys or combos for you and chances are any app which shows bleed stacks within the game violates the Terms of Service.
Playing the market?
Yes you are able to flip items. You are simply not permitted to sell in game items for real life currency.
If you feel you can purchase items/currency low and sell for higher then by all means do so.
The punishments dished out are for exploits. Most people who exploit know they are exploiting and in all honesty such players exist in games which are even decades old. Those players you are reading are the players who find item dupes, exploit them, and then claim they're not at fault for abusing the bug because the bug shouldn't exist.
Don't listen to them. It's rather hard to get banned from this game or any other MMO if you apply common sense to the actions you take. The average person who cries foul play after being banned are players who knew all too well that they were using bugs in the game to gain an unfair advantage.
This. Not to mention that a lot of enemies will switched to ranged attacks (which I think is way cooler anyways). The dynamic of space and the idea one can use one's environment to their advantage is the heart and soul of a 3-dimensional video game.
I can guarantee you that there are portions of many single player instances where you can make 100-200k AD per hour without having to worry about finding a right group of players (usually in que for 30-90 minutes). In particular, instances with a resource rich first area are quick and easy to farm and then leave to reset the instance.
Also, my roommate was farming the first part of the Goblin Warrens (4 enemy pulls, 2 chests, and 6 resource nodes) and lost his account. Just so you're aware, what you are saying is ok is not.
There's a difference in what you all are describing.
If you climb on to a roof and you can kill mobs before the figure out how to reach you, more power to you.
If you find a location where mobs simply stand and look at you stupidly...well that's not intentional. That's a bug which needs to be avoided and reports about it would be appreciated.
This is the common sense part. If monsters should be attacking you and you find a magic spot which kills their AI that's not intentional and is therefore a bug. If it's too good to be true, it is.
Or as pharoah4187 stated, if this feels like cheating, chances are it is.
Players don't get punished for abusing bugs which don't grant them some obvious unfair advantage and tricking the AI so mobs do not at least try to hit you (Anybody who plays the game knows that no mobs stand still if they can't reach you)
Anything and everything players were banned for (Auction House Exploit) it's point blank obvious something was wrong.
Remember Account Related Issues (Bans) may not be discussed on the forums.
This is a good point to take away from this discussion. The exploits that have occurred thus far, however avoidable they might have been in the offing, were certainly obvious in their execution. I don’t believe that any of them were accidental by any stretch of definition.
Taking 0 AD and turning it into thousands of AD, killing hordes of mobs that don’t even move, take a single item and turning it into two items, these are clearly exploitative and required conscious actions to make them happen. Don’t do that.
Skipping parts of the dungeon is a little iffier in my book but the people who went in with the express desire to do just that, tsk tsk tsk.
I wouldn’t concern myself so much with accidentally breaking the game. The actual exploits that the devs are looking for are blatant and obvious and if you are perpetrating them then you know it.
Rock on, rooftop ninjas.
What is upsetting is that I never did any of this but maybe farm some nodes in an instance which to you is completely legal. I haven't heard a word from any CS and it's been 92 hours, this is how you treat paying customers??
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I was playing with a TR in Helm's Hold zone yesterday who was re-leveling a character because the same thing had happened to him.
+1 Thats how a CM should be
Me and my roommate both agree that their forum people and their twitter people are amazing. They are very good at staying in touch with their community on the social level.
However, there is an absolute lack of actual technical support for the game, both in-game and through their support channels.
If you're doing some wacky "reset the instance to farm a single node/chest at the entrance 48000 times in 15 minutes" thing? Yeah, that could likely be considered an exploit. (Remember when WoW started limiting the number of instances you could enter in an hour, because gold farmers were grabbing that one chest at the start of.... yeesh, whatever that dungeon was.... oh, yeah, Maraudon.... over and over and over?)
They're seriously backlogged. You can guesstimate about 5-7 business days. (though may be days since they're working OT and weekends...)
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?287382-Customer-Service-Update
Give them some more time to get to your ticket.
Technical support is via the Tech Support forums mostly, and they're pretty up on that too.
Customer Support / Service is where the issues are, and they've hired more people (who have to be trained first) and are working OT / Weekends to get the mass tickets under control.
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1) farming instances. That in and of itself is OK, but there is an associated exploit/bug that is NOT ok.
2) macro/software/hardware -- A sequence of attacks and such is OK (many games provide a way to bind a series to a single key anyway) but as you said automation is bad. There is a grey area between the two.... in general, such tools are more often used to cheat than not.
The rest of it sounds legit. Going out of bounds is at your own risk. If you crash your character somehow and lose all your stuff doing it, do not cry about it. Most games handle it well but some games have lost the entire character (cannot log in as it has no location) and this game seems to lack customer service and resolution to tickets...!
I would like to point out that there are a group of people looking for all the exploits and then using them and bragging about them until they get fixed just so that they get fixed faster, since they do take a while to get fixed. but they still get mad over being banned.
And with keyboard macros... i can have it do it as steps 1 press 1 skill. so i can set 1 as a macro that it presses 1 2 3. So that when i go 1 1 1 its 1 2 3. Thats the typical use of 1 key press 1 action macros. Typically in a game if you press 1 key 1 time and it does 3 actions thats automation and not alowed
Finding an exploit is not a problem. Reporting one is great.
Doing the exploit 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 times in a row is another story. That is exploiting. Doing it 3 or 4 times to be sure you can repeat it and describe it is also probably OK.
Consider yourself corrected.
Botting, throughout the years, have referred to the complete humanless interaction of an account with the game. Basically login (some bots will even do this), activate the bot and leave.... some bots will even run multiple instances of the game in seperate windows/VM.
Using macro's isn't botting.... it's macro'ing. Which is... sorta like saying... it's a cyborg. Not all human, but not all machine.
But, unfortunately, the vast majority of MMO players lack simple common sense.
You also have that type of player who thinks that getting away with everything possible IS the game instead of actually playing the game, so they look to exploit, cheat, abuse AI, etc rather than report bugs, and they consider this "playing" the game.
Ultimately, I blame parents. Some people just should not spawn.
WOW addons had AI and scripts and more. That is outside the discussion. A macro would just press like 1, 2, 3 for you when you hit 1. there is no advantage unless the player has hand issues from age (the gaming community is aging, note how many people here remember 20+ year old games?! Its not 12 year olds anymore, they are now 30 year olds). There are built in limits to how fast you can do 1,2,3 and that limit is high enough that there is no advantage to a machine over a player assuming the player is healthy & able to hit the 3 keys within say 1/2 a second of each other, which most can do.
It also depends on what the sequence even does. I would pay real $$ for one that automatically put my crafting peon in the slot for me instead of having to click the mouse twice for each go.
The implication (just using the word scrub here gives you away) is pvp garbage again. I do not even pvp, so how would a programmed keyboard give me some advantage? Hey I killed that drider 0.00004 seconds faster than the human, go me...!
There's a difference between farming dungeon instances for drops and working the system to keep spawning quest-based solo instances for drops/nodes etc.
I don't know that they could even do anything about that (since it's basically just interacting with the webpage on your behalf).
I sure wouldn't use someone else's program for that...Not sure I'd trust someone's program that would require my user / password to do anything...
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I tried using it to see what it was about. it doesn't require your info as it required you to open the gateway yourself and you login via your browser. but yeah they cant do anything about that.
This is followed by "I got hacked" posts :P