I kinda of like the FREEDOM... pls dont take freedom away... Just make options.
You have the freedom to go and shoot a person in the face, but you will end up in prison. How is this regulated? By gun control laws. Bad example, but the same point a felon can't purchase a gun "legally" so his need button was taken away to prevent him from shooting people.
you have the same chance to win against everyone in the group if everyone hits the greed button, the only reason why you would even care is if you wanted to be the guy to need and cheese everyone else out of a fair chance. If your not playing the character the loot is for ......that is called greed, a friend needs the item, but they aren't in that group ....that is greed, the loot belongs to the "group" not to a "groupmember" until that loot is awarded. I am tired of losing greed rolls on AH loot because some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> wants to need on stuff and screw his party, and I actually ALWAYS greed UNLESS I am going to EQUIP the item on my character or I can USE the item for my tradeskill or its common practice like needing on enchantments. In EVERY social game I play. I hate rude, selfish, thoughtless, individuals that only think of themselves and that is exactly what your being when you need on an item that doesn't fit into the category I listed as need loot.
There's nothing elegant about layering patch on top of patch to try to fix a fundamentally broken system. Some of you may not realize that the "Need" button itself was added to a "Want / Pass" system in order to fix exactly what everyone's complaining about... That's one of the reasons I don't think any of these "fixes" will ever work, and why I suspect everyone will be b****ing about Cryptic's "solution" in a few months (or weeks, or hours).
The current system needs (hehe no pun intended) to be changed. My suggestion before was blues and purples be changed to class need only and BoP, and everything else a anyone can need on.
Personally I'm fed up losing gear for my GWF to TR's and CW's. I hate the idea of working my way through a dungeon so someone can twink an alt or throw something on the AH that would help me out. Especially when I see people then turn around and complain on the forums about how under powered a class is or how they were in a group with someone who had crappy gear. Maybe they would have better gear if other classes would stop rolling on it!
0
nullwolf1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here’s a short list of some of the top things our team has been working on lately — things we hope to have updates on very soon:
<snip> Party Loot issues (better allowing players to win the items they legitimately need)
[...] Or take it a step further and remove the need/greed/pass menu altogether, and hand it out to a random person in the first place.
This. As someone else mentioned, I'm not sure why it wasn't implemented this way in the first place. The only way anyone should know loot dropped at all is because they either see it show up in their inventory, or because someone says "Hey look what I got!" This is the most fair and causes the least drama. I'd say it's self-evident but apparently I'd be wrong.
Every time I hear a PW/Cryptic team member say the word soon I cringe. LOL Soon seems to be a default time-frame than can mean anything from a day to next century. O.O
I have to laugh, here. The City of Heroes community used to have a time table of what "Soon" actually meant. Soon(TM) could mean anything, but I think there were levels beyond that, which actually did mean an update was imminent. I don't remember what those terms were, but something to the effect of "Very Soon" and "Really Really Soon", which meant approximately "this month" and "this or next week", respectively.
This, with either flat out random, or, option to roll or just pass.
And please shrink the size of the roll result. 3 of them block half the screen to the point you can't see what is happening, which is very bad in a hack and slash action game.
Yes please. I know we can re-scale our own UI, but it wasn't very intuitive last time I checked, and figuring out which window is the loot drop is difficult. Not to mention having to do it on every single character. Those windows should be smaller or moved to the side of the screen!
I'm not sure why this isn't the default in games. Loot is already random by its very nature... simply having each item go to the next person in the list is the most fair way to do it. If people want to trade they can. The only reason a roll should be used is for items that are bound on pickup. I don't even bother rolling need on green items that are for my class, I just greed everything. Never had any problems getting gear.
It's clear after reading many of the posts in this thread that several of you have little if any MMO experience. It's also quite obvious the F2P model invites this sort of chaotic moral imbalance into play. For many of you rolling need on loot you cannot equip and only intend to sell against a player who is rolling to equip... seems fair. For the majority of experienced and seasoned MMO veterans it does not. It goes against the ideology of community and role-play that is so deeply ingrained in how we play and enjoy MMO's. I fear that many of you will completely miss the point I have made and this is the saddest element of all.
Welcome to F2P
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the F2P model, and I don't think the idea of community, role-play, and being a courteous fellow player automatically go out the window with F2P games. I've met plenty of greedy, mean, selfish, rude players in P2P games. So far, NW seems to have a community much like CoH had - helpful, kind, and largely mature. Yes there are some bad apples, but that's always true. As a friend of mine used to say "First rule of MMOs: There will be Power Gamers, there will be Nerfs, and there will be Whining." The question is whether or not the community is strong enough to survive such foibles, and NW does seem to be that.
Hard to understand people that argue that its fine to "need" everything because they need money. Its as if we speak a different language. What else can "greed" mean? Do they think greed is for insanely rich people that DON'T need money and are just rolling for the joy of accumulating infinite wealth?
Hard to understand people that argue that its fine to "need" everything because they need money. Its as if we speak a different language. What else can "greed" mean? Do they think greed is for insanely rich people that DON'T need money and are just rolling for the joy of accumulating infinite wealth?
Yes, the term "greed" as used in MMOs does not correspond to what one might think if used in a conversation. Functionally, "greed" is equivalent to "pass" if even just one other person rolls "need." So you can roll "greed" all you want, but you're not likely to get anything by doing so.
There's a lot of conceptual disconnects between the Need/Greed/Pass system and the etiquette that evolved around it; this is just one of 'em.
I saw that, but I am not sure it really means what many people would like to see. But I would not complain if that is exactly what it means, since yes, it is tedious to lose need rolls to people who cannot even use it.
I believe, IIRC, that the initial BWEs had a simple roll/pass system.
People whined about, yes that's right, others getting loot outside their class.
Need button was added as a fix.
Fix is just as bad, but perceived to be worse, as the original simpler design.
Here we are
What happened to the KISS principle?
0
wanyeneqMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
Low interest in refining NBG. Even lower interest in bind on loot. I would be interested in:
Round-Robin or more ideally a draft format.
-Initial seeding as random, or time in group (a group decision; with allowances/protections from short disconnects)
-Serpentine strategy for subsequent round ordering (selection order flips from top to bottom round to round).
-Loot ranked by vendor value.
-Consumables and enchants are grouped in equal shares of like kind, but are separate picks (you wouldn't have to take a particular share of consumables as a pick if you didn't want them).
-Selection trading, preferred picks, and auto-pick for rounds where their is no particular preference.
-Distribution of pooled loot occurs when the group composition changes (aside from short disconnects; long disconnects are auto-picks unless a preference was given before disconnect and the item is still available).
-Overflow the loot that overflows up to the completion of the pool distribution. I am sure my horse can carry a little extra back to town.
No thats not a fair system. What if it isnt an upgrade then they get it by default. It should be roll need and it binds. Roll greed its bind on equip.
I think this would be a great solution, but it may require some new tech. In the meantime, restricting need to items the character can equip will be a significant improvement over what we have now.
I'd prefer if loot dropped for everyone with random items and only you could see it. If you wanna trade with someone so be it, if not so be it, nobody needs to know what you got.
I agree. I find it weird that if you are alone and you kill a mob, even if other people are also killing it, you get your drops and they get their's. You don't see each other's and you go about your business.
But if you are in a party, you had better need on anything you want, and pass on everything you can't use or you won't get jack/you will get reamed for it.
You won't likely get kicked though as you can't be replaced lol
Picking greed is a pointless exercise, because you know everyone else is picking need or pass.
They let each person individually open the chests for their own loot in dungeons, which is nice, but everything else is random. With the illusion of choice though. You either want something or you don't, which means you roll or pass.
Since wanting something doesn't mean you automatically get it, and there isn't enough to go around, why its not just TOTALLY RANDOM like most other mmo loot systems is beyond me.
I would certainly prefer it to having my view of the screen occluded by loot windows,
And to make a bad system even worse, 90% of the loot in question is unidentified, so you have no idea if you "need" it at all. Most of the time its stuff that is worse than the drops I get from a random zombie, but sometimes I get a good new orb so its better to just need on everything that isn't redded out.
Which is exactly what people are doing. And apparently this completely sane and rational behavior is going on too much and needs to be changed due to butthurt.
Its mentioned on Twitter several times as well as the State of Game speech from a Dev. This need on everything <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is coming to end , finally.
I await the flames and soon to be rivers full of tears of these greedy ninjas
Enjoy a fair and balanced loot system :P
hoorah bout time
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
Hard to understand people that argue that its fine to "need" everything because they need money. Its as if we speak a different language. What else can "greed" mean? Do they think greed is for insanely rich people that DON'T need money and are just rolling for the joy of accumulating infinite wealth?
I don't see what's hard to understand here.
YOu can buy gear with money. It's no different than acquiring gear via the rolling system.
The whole idea of "needing" on a roll is that the item is an upgrade. We can all buy upgrade, so needing on everything is the most logical solution to teh "problem" since if the party all decides to roll greed on items that aren't direct upgrades your begging for a ninja to leap out of the shadows.
I think the following safeguards should be put in place for dungeon finder groups:
1) You cannot roll need on armour pieces that are not for your class.
2) Items that are rolled 'need' on become character bound. To prevent gearing up alts / on-selling.
Of course this only applies to dungeon finder groups. The existing loot options should be available to premade groups that want to get gear for alts etc. But for dungeon finder groups there is usually no such agreement, and rolling need on items not for the character you are using is poor form.
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origforumnameMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I don't really get what the big deal is. Just let everyone roll need on everything all the time, and loot will be distributed randomly. The auction house will take care of the rest. That's worked fine in plenty of other games.
Or take it a step further and remove the need/greed/pass menu altogether, and hand it out to a random person in the first place.
This is one of the worst arguments in the thread and it is oft repeated also.
First, the refinement a lot of people want is to not allow need rolls on gear unless you can use it. This would in no way alter the "randomness" of the loot distribution over what it is now excepting poorly designed loot tables (which would also be an issue in the current system). If you get lucky and gear for your class drops then you get to roll need with a higher chance of winning (due to less competition) than the current system. This is just as "random" as being able to roll need on everything.
Second, a lot of people do not enjoy gearing via auction house or vendor. Like it or not there are very real game design reasons for having loot table gear drop off boss mobs. Players will associate the achievement of killing the boss with the earned reward and a loot table reward system greatly enhances the replay value of content.
Ultimately players do like getting drops for their class and do not like losing rolls on upgrades to someone who cannot use the item. This game has very clear class-specific itemization so this is a no-brainer. Everything else can be a free-for-all as it is now with no worries.
The have to get rid of the whole need/greed system completely. Not only does it encourage people picking up stuff they can't use it also brings up that annoying popup when some idiot decides to hit "f" right in the middle of a battle.
Now the system already knows who can use what and who can't, that's why we get the message "Your class can not use the item"
If someone is the only one that can use a given item the they get it automatically no questions asked.
If there are more than one person who can use the item the computer rolls as if all those capable of using it rolled need and gives it to the higher roll.
If nobody can use it it rolls as if everybody rolled "Greed" and gives it to the best roll
All done in the background with no input at all from the players.
If they are going to change the current loot system then yes I vote for the bind-on-pickup idea. Prized (instance) items (i.e. those items that sell for lots of money and/or are wanted because the item is powerful in-game) should be bind-on-pickup anyways... it works (successfully) in many other MMO's like that.
This is one of the worst arguments in the thread and it is oft repeated also.
First, the refinement a lot of people want is to not allow need rolls on gear unless you can use it. This would in no way alter the "randomness" of the loot distribution over what it is now excepting poorly designed loot tables (which would also be an issue in the current system). If you get lucky and gear for your class drops then you get to roll need with a higher chance of winning (due to less competition) than the current system. This is just as "random" as being able to roll need on everything.
You see the problem, but you don't understand it.
Cryptic's loot tables are the furthest thing from class-equitable. Because of this, "Need on everything" is actually the only fair system possible. Even if the loot tables were perfectly balanced, a system that restricts Need rolls by class is inherently unfair.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Maybe NW could use some kind of reputation/karma system? You'd get flagged at as lootninja if you need on everything and then it would balance itself out again if you use need, greed and pass properly. That would be very useful for pugs.
"Greed" = I may or may not be able to use the item, but i still want to roll, because i'd like to sell it for AD.
"Pass" = I Do not want to sell the item, i am unable to use it on my character class.
This. It's commonly known fair-play practice. Deny it and we all be greedy scumbags needing on everything to sell it. I don't want to be like this and I don't want to play with people having this sort of mentality. This is a social game. Want everything for yourself and you don't care about others? Go play some single player grind game.
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chrispybrownMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
* Yes, need only for items your current character can use, not your alts or companions.
* Yes, make it a party leader option (default to on)
* Only Greed or Pass on unidentified items of Green or lower (or whatever the threshold is)
* Players may see what the loot settings are for the party. After "recruitment" time is over, this setting can't change.
* Joining a scenario will detain the loot setting in chat as will the changes during recruitment period.
* Have a vote new leader option to remove bot leaders.
* If you're in PvP and haven't given damage in X time, then you're a bot and need to get automatically booted.
* Leader can not boot players after 500 points in arena.
* Leaving a dungeon, pvp or skirmish will give you a one hour cool down to rejoin the scenario you left. (dc'ing doesn't count the first time, but 3 dc's and you get cooldown) An exception may be during the first couple of minutes when new players can jump in (recruitment).
Now when i run a T2 and only roll on rogue gear to sell i wont be outrolled by another class (ill still get yelled at by the other rogue but i have all the best gear and only need runes so either don't run anything or run for currency is the option)
The have to get rid of the whole need/greed system completely. Not only does it encourage people picking up stuff they can't use it also brings up that annoying popup when some idiot decides to hit "f" right in the middle of a battle.
Now the system already knows who can use what and who can't, that's why we get the message "Your class can not use the item"
If someone is the only one that can use a given item the they get it automatically no questions asked.
If there are more than one person who can use the item the computer rolls as if all those capable of using it rolled need and gives it to the higher roll.
If nobody can use it it rolls as if everybody rolled "Greed" and gives it to the best roll
All done in the background with no input at all from the players.
You miss the fact that you can have a run of all one class items dropping. Now if that person is already geared the items go to them by default. Why should they get three items to sell. If you have need rolls as BOP and worth one copper then all classes get a fairer oppurtunity as greed is BOE.
I run as a CW and ussually there are 2 of us running so that limits my chance of getting loot.
No thats not a fair system. What if it isnt an upgrade then they get it by default. It should be roll need and it binds. Roll greed its bind on equip.
Its funny how people cant see beyond getting loot in their slot.
All this will Accomplish is everyone switching to Rolling Greed, and the same issue happening still. if its an Epic/Rare item make it Bind on Pickup like just about every other MMO. Then it can't be sold.
Comments
You have the freedom to go and shoot a person in the face, but you will end up in prison. How is this regulated? By gun control laws. Bad example, but the same point a felon can't purchase a gun "legally" so his need button was taken away to prevent him from shooting people.
you have the same chance to win against everyone in the group if everyone hits the greed button, the only reason why you would even care is if you wanted to be the guy to need and cheese everyone else out of a fair chance. If your not playing the character the loot is for ......that is called greed, a friend needs the item, but they aren't in that group ....that is greed, the loot belongs to the "group" not to a "groupmember" until that loot is awarded. I am tired of losing greed rolls on AH loot because some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> wants to need on stuff and screw his party, and I actually ALWAYS greed UNLESS I am going to EQUIP the item on my character or I can USE the item for my tradeskill or its common practice like needing on enchantments. In EVERY social game I play. I hate rude, selfish, thoughtless, individuals that only think of themselves and that is exactly what your being when you need on an item that doesn't fit into the category I listed as need loot.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Quest Title: Don't "Count" on it - Ch. 1
Short Code: NW-DQ3H4MXKG
Duration: 15-20 minutes
DAILY FOUNDRY ELIGIBLE? Yes!
Personally I'm fed up losing gear for my GWF to TR's and CW's. I hate the idea of working my way through a dungeon so someone can twink an alt or throw something on the AH that would help me out. Especially when I see people then turn around and complain on the forums about how under powered a class is or how they were in a group with someone who had crappy gear. Maybe they would have better gear if other classes would stop rolling on it!
Actually...
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I have to laugh, here.
Yes please. I know we can re-scale our own UI, but it wasn't very intuitive last time I checked, and figuring out which window is the loot drop is difficult. Not to mention having to do it on every single character. Those windows should be smaller or moved to the side of the screen!
Ditto, and seconded!!
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the F2P model, and I don't think the idea of community, role-play, and being a courteous fellow player automatically go out the window with F2P games. I've met plenty of greedy, mean, selfish, rude players in P2P games. So far, NW seems to have a community much like CoH had - helpful, kind, and largely mature. Yes there are some bad apples, but that's always true. As a friend of mine used to say "First rule of MMOs: There will be Power Gamers, there will be Nerfs, and there will be Whining." The question is whether or not the community is strong enough to survive such foibles, and NW does seem to be that.
There's a lot of conceptual disconnects between the Need/Greed/Pass system and the etiquette that evolved around it; this is just one of 'em.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
I saw that, but I am not sure it really means what many people would like to see. But I would not complain if that is exactly what it means, since yes, it is tedious to lose need rolls to people who cannot even use it.
People whined about, yes that's right, others getting loot outside their class.
Need button was added as a fix.
Fix is just as bad, but perceived to be worse, as the original simpler design.
Here we are
What happened to the KISS principle?
Round-Robin or more ideally a draft format.
-Initial seeding as random, or time in group (a group decision; with allowances/protections from short disconnects)
-Serpentine strategy for subsequent round ordering (selection order flips from top to bottom round to round).
-Loot ranked by vendor value.
-Consumables and enchants are grouped in equal shares of like kind, but are separate picks (you wouldn't have to take a particular share of consumables as a pick if you didn't want them).
-Selection trading, preferred picks, and auto-pick for rounds where their is no particular preference.
-Distribution of pooled loot occurs when the group composition changes (aside from short disconnects; long disconnects are auto-picks unless a preference was given before disconnect and the item is still available).
-Overflow the loot that overflows up to the completion of the pool distribution. I am sure my horse can carry a little extra back to town.
I think this would be a great solution, but it may require some new tech. In the meantime, restricting need to items the character can equip will be a significant improvement over what we have now.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! That will definitely improve my experience.
Now if you can just improve queuing.
Lannister SOB's!
But if you are in a party, you had better need on anything you want, and pass on everything you can't use or you won't get jack/you will get reamed for it.
You won't likely get kicked though as you can't be replaced lol
Picking greed is a pointless exercise, because you know everyone else is picking need or pass.
They let each person individually open the chests for their own loot in dungeons, which is nice, but everything else is random. With the illusion of choice though. You either want something or you don't, which means you roll or pass.
Since wanting something doesn't mean you automatically get it, and there isn't enough to go around, why its not just TOTALLY RANDOM like most other mmo loot systems is beyond me.
I would certainly prefer it to having my view of the screen occluded by loot windows,
And to make a bad system even worse, 90% of the loot in question is unidentified, so you have no idea if you "need" it at all. Most of the time its stuff that is worse than the drops I get from a random zombie, but sometimes I get a good new orb so its better to just need on everything that isn't redded out.
Which is exactly what people are doing. And apparently this completely sane and rational behavior is going on too much and needs to be changed due to butthurt.
meh
I Aim To Misbehave
hoorah bout time
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
I don't see what's hard to understand here.
YOu can buy gear with money. It's no different than acquiring gear via the rolling system.
The whole idea of "needing" on a roll is that the item is an upgrade. We can all buy upgrade, so needing on everything is the most logical solution to teh "problem" since if the party all decides to roll greed on items that aren't direct upgrades your begging for a ninja to leap out of the shadows.
1) You cannot roll need on armour pieces that are not for your class.
2) Items that are rolled 'need' on become character bound. To prevent gearing up alts / on-selling.
Of course this only applies to dungeon finder groups. The existing loot options should be available to premade groups that want to get gear for alts etc. But for dungeon finder groups there is usually no such agreement, and rolling need on items not for the character you are using is poor form.
This is one of the worst arguments in the thread and it is oft repeated also.
First, the refinement a lot of people want is to not allow need rolls on gear unless you can use it. This would in no way alter the "randomness" of the loot distribution over what it is now excepting poorly designed loot tables (which would also be an issue in the current system). If you get lucky and gear for your class drops then you get to roll need with a higher chance of winning (due to less competition) than the current system. This is just as "random" as being able to roll need on everything.
Second, a lot of people do not enjoy gearing via auction house or vendor. Like it or not there are very real game design reasons for having loot table gear drop off boss mobs. Players will associate the achievement of killing the boss with the earned reward and a loot table reward system greatly enhances the replay value of content.
Ultimately players do like getting drops for their class and do not like losing rolls on upgrades to someone who cannot use the item. This game has very clear class-specific itemization so this is a no-brainer. Everything else can be a free-for-all as it is now with no worries.
The have to get rid of the whole need/greed system completely. Not only does it encourage people picking up stuff they can't use it also brings up that annoying popup when some idiot decides to hit "f" right in the middle of a battle.
Now the system already knows who can use what and who can't, that's why we get the message "Your class can not use the item"
If someone is the only one that can use a given item the they get it automatically no questions asked.
If there are more than one person who can use the item the computer rolls as if all those capable of using it rolled need and gives it to the higher roll.
If nobody can use it it rolls as if everybody rolled "Greed" and gives it to the best roll
All done in the background with no input at all from the players.
You see the problem, but you don't understand it.
Cryptic's loot tables are the furthest thing from class-equitable. Because of this, "Need on everything" is actually the only fair system possible. Even if the loot tables were perfectly balanced, a system that restricts Need rolls by class is inherently unfair.
This. It's commonly known fair-play practice. Deny it and we all be greedy scumbags needing on everything to sell it. I don't want to be like this and I don't want to play with people having this sort of mentality. This is a social game. Want everything for yourself and you don't care about others? Go play some single player grind game.
* Yes, make it a party leader option (default to on)
* Only Greed or Pass on unidentified items of Green or lower (or whatever the threshold is)
* Players may see what the loot settings are for the party. After "recruitment" time is over, this setting can't change.
* Joining a scenario will detain the loot setting in chat as will the changes during recruitment period.
* Have a vote new leader option to remove bot leaders.
* If you're in PvP and haven't given damage in X time, then you're a bot and need to get automatically booted.
* Leader can not boot players after 500 points in arena.
* Leaving a dungeon, pvp or skirmish will give you a one hour cool down to rejoin the scenario you left. (dc'ing doesn't count the first time, but 3 dc's and you get cooldown) An exception may be during the first couple of minutes when new players can jump in (recruitment).
You miss the fact that you can have a run of all one class items dropping. Now if that person is already geared the items go to them by default. Why should they get three items to sell. If you have need rolls as BOP and worth one copper then all classes get a fairer oppurtunity as greed is BOE.
I run as a CW and ussually there are 2 of us running so that limits my chance of getting loot.
Oh.. and develop a renewable energy resource.
All this will Accomplish is everyone switching to Rolling Greed, and the same issue happening still. if its an Epic/Rare item make it Bind on Pickup like just about every other MMO. Then it can't be sold.