@ demonsunder, if u are not useles in ure team it is because u specced the dps canon GF build, point remains if one spec only is viable can u call the class a succes? atm tons of skills arent working like intented...
(i also consider u are running ure GF with mates, so they allow u to join them, this does not mean another class other then u would be more effective then u are?)
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
I would like to point out in this thread, that i am really curious how the GWF/GF work when all there heroic feats/paragon feats would work like intented. Nobody seems to have put his finger on this subject. I feel they could be really good if things like the heroic feat "defense <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"(forgot the name atm) would exualy work, and the same wil go for other feats/paragon skills, some just dont function atm and if they would work the class itself might become viable?..
I'm a GWF60 with approx 11kgearscore with a Destroyer Build. Got that very weapon from CN and a Greater Plague Fire Enchantment in it. Haven't finished yet the Avatar of War set but i perform quite good in pugs and in guild parties...
... Right now the only thing broken that impacts on my DPS is the Resistance Ignored % from my Constitution Score that does not work so i respecced back to dex based build even though i started with 16 STR and 16 CON (+2 Tiefling 18). I have unbuffed 22 STR, 20 CON, 18 DEX at the moment and i can tell you that just putting those 4 points from the first CON build into DEX changed the amount of DPS i do. I still have 10% resistance ignored from constitution which is not working so theorically my DPS should go up once it gets fixed. A fix to CON, though, will not buff up my damage by 10% because Plague Fire and Student of Sword Sentinel feat (debuff defense on crit) consistently debuffs the defense of the mobs i hit making the resistace ignored % only worth for the first-second hit most of the time.
So at least for my Destroyer build, fixing the only thing not working right now, will not make me able to outdps my very good geared guildies playing TR, GF (conqueror build), and CW (dps spec). The reason is quite simple: the GWF at wills do very lousy damage. IF a balance fix should be made for GWF is to raise up consistently the damage of at-will powers. As i already showed in another thread with a screenshot, having around 5k power makes my best single target at-will only do roughly 620 damage per hit (not considering weapon enchants and crits).
I am specced full tank not dps. And yes I run with my guild I don't play with pug's and I have 3 60's GF, CW and DC Never geared. WHy would I run with Pug's its an mmo not hello kitty island adventure, he/she who has the best team wins.
My team dosn't carry me, I am not a pity spot I bring threat management to my group I can keep aggro off my cleric's because we work as a team I can play as any of my character but I get ASKED to play my gf because he brings real valuable skills to the group.
The community's perception of the GF is wrong, we can tank its just players have been spoilt by 1 hit Tank for too long they want an instant taunt you need to fight for it and you need to be geared.
2 runs myself in CN. No more dungeons at all until the loot issue is fixed. Both times I lost rolls to a CW that needed on my equipment and then promptly left the group. Utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
I'm a GWF60 with approx 11kgearscore with a Destroyer Build. Got that very weapon from CN and a Greater Plague Fire Enchantment in it. Haven't finished yet the Avatar of War set but i perform quite good in pugs and in guild parties...
... Right now the only thing broken that impacts on my DPS is the Resistance Ignored % from my Constitution Score that does not work so i respecced back to dex based build even though i started with 16 STR and 16 CON (+2 Tiefling 18). I have unbuffed 22 STR, 20 CON, 18 DEX at the moment and i can tell you that just putting those 4 points from the first CON build into DEX changed the amount of DPS i do. I still have 10% resistance ignored from constitution which is not working so theorically my DPS should go up once it gets fixed. A fix to CON, though, will not buff up my damage by 10% because Plague Fire and Student of Sword Sentinel feat (debuff defense on crit) consistently debuffs the defense of the mobs i hit making the resistace ignored % only worth for the first-second hit most of the time.
So at least for my Destroyer build, fixing the only thing not working right now, will not make me able to outdps my very good geared guildies playing TR, GF (conqueror build), and CW (dps spec). The reason is quite simple: the GWF at wills do very lousy damage. IF a balance fix should be made for GWF is to raise up consistently the damage of at-will powers. As i already showed in another thread with a screenshot, having around 5k power makes my best single target at-will only do roughly 620 damage per hit (not considering weapon enchants and crits).
A huge part of the problem is the developers. They state in their own typed words the numbers GWF are doing are "inline" with ALL other classes. I think the numbers they see are from low level "soft" trash mobs kills (not elite trash) and NOT the high level elite trash or single target dps which is pathetic. I am talking the ones that takes dps to take down. In other dungeons other than CN I have witnessed CW do appropriate aoe dps for the mob level, all the while I am swinging doing 1/3 the damage and losing threat after a CW pops his skill which is up as fast as mine is.
There was nothing wrong with the GWF before they nerfed it, it was a very strong class and was on par with the CW and TR for damage but it was AOE damage. The thread that got it nerfed if folks remember was a pvp thread, they were devastating, but then some class has to be....??.
The dev stating the GWF is also "still a little too strong" should likely be canned, laugh, along with the class or at the very least he/she should be sent home and called up when no other devs are available, similar to how a GWF gets parties.
This is what I assumed happened in the developers meeting, and in my own opinion it seems a likely scenario. They did not need two AOE mega classes, one also being fairly well armored...that was the end of the GWF.
Now plug in the pathetic skills/feats and lack of them working or scaling properly and you have what you see now, a purebred second string bench warmer called up when no one else will fill the parties.
Not mad, I play a GWF and have over a 10k GS and have fun playing it, its just not needed in the game currently because of developer choices.
Note, I also went with a pure dex/power build from the get go as I knew after the nerf nothing else would be viable.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
I'm a GWF60 with approx 11kgearscore with a Destroyer Build. Got that very weapon from CN and a Greater Plague Fire Enchantment in it. Haven't finished yet the Avatar of War set but i perform quite good in pugs and in guild parties...
... Right now the only thing broken that impacts on my DPS is the Resistance Ignored % from my Constitution Score that does not work so i respecced back to dex based build even though i started with 16 STR and 16 CON (+2 Tiefling 18). I have unbuffed 22 STR, 20 CON, 18 DEX at the moment and i can tell you that just putting those 4 points from the first CON build into DEX changed the amount of DPS i do. I still have 10% resistance ignored from constitution which is not working so theorically my DPS should go up once it gets fixed. A fix to CON, though, will not buff up my damage by 10% because Plague Fire and Student of Sword Sentinel feat (debuff defense on crit) consistently debuffs the defense of the mobs i hit making the resistace ignored % only worth for the first-second hit most of the time.
So at least for my Destroyer build, fixing the only thing not working right now, will not make me able to outdps my very good geared guildies playing TR, GF (conqueror build), and CW (dps spec). The reason is quite simple: the GWF at wills do very lousy damage. IF a balance fix should be made for GWF is to raise up consistently the damage of at-will powers. As i already showed in another thread with a screenshot, having around 5k power makes my best single target at-will only do roughly 620 damage per hit (not considering weapon enchants and crits).
You are probably reaching the level of DR that mobs have with your ArP. I found that mobs have at least 10% DR, and some have more. I have not tested the mobs in high level dungeons yet, mainly because the combat log is so archaic, but also because I just run in pugs.
Discipline of str = no 6% is added to the character sheet in str (unlike on a cleric wisdom heroic feat gives a flat % to healing on the character sheet)
Armor specialisation = same like the GF defense heroic feat not working/not listed in the character sheet
Steely defense = again not listed ore not working
my gwf has just reached the paragon tree a few lvls ago so maybe in a few days i can make this list longer, but as it stands ive invested about 9 points in feats not showing an improvement to my character(either it isent showing ore the impact is so minimal nothing changes?)
Another thing to note is that all attacks can be interupted by sprint, including daily's that exist out of 2 portion animation , like savage advance, u can interupt this = prone the enemy's, and not execute the cut so u dont lose ure AP.
I just imagine these classes could be better if all of there feats worked like intented, and if the information on the skills was more acurate.
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Why bring an aoe class that does less damage then a single target class. I mean sure GWF does bring some slows for control but that's about it besides its' aoe damage. Then there's teh issue that they don't have a shift dodge. Sprint used well can be about as useful as dodge, but dodge is much easier to use thus the puggers are more likely not to stand in red circles etc.
For GWF to be worth bringing over another class into a group it will need to be buffed. Perhaps buffing damage so it's doing more aoe damage than a rogue does single target (like 150% or something). Maybe adding control but I don't think that's a great idea. Maybe making AOE tanking as a GWF viable. Basically GWF needs to do something at least as good as the other classes. You could argue that GWF is the highest AOE dps, and that it already does do something better than the otehr classes. But the issue is, when single target dps will kill mobs faster the aoe dps is basically useless, unless you are tanking the mobs effectively.
Not only that but single target dps will reduce the incoming damage to your party as the damage is focused on one monster.
In a group of 5 monsters as example the rogue will have killed 4 monstres while the GWF is still fighting 5 of them thus with the rogue only 1 monster is still attakcing your party. Even then, the rogue will have killed all 5 monsters while the GWF is fighting 5.
IMO the best way to make GWF a desired candidate for grouping with strangers is to buff it's AOE damage. This will have very little effect on pvp since you are lucky to have 3 targets to hit with aoe in pvp unless you are fighting newbs or people that aren't so good at the game.
The only thing a GWF currently offers a group really is the debuff to resistances when they crit. Most puggers overlook this though unfortunately and this is probably why the devs are saying the numbers are inline since this debuff is increasing the damage for 5 players.
That being said I"ll gladly take a GWF in my groups, but that's mostly because I don't find the content hard enough to warrant taking only the best party makeup to a dungeon. Now if there is 2 GWFs in a group, I will probably leave tbh.
GF I can't really comment on since I havne't played one, at all. They do seem to be a subpar choice for t2 and on though, but as my previous comment, you don't need the best party makeup anyways.
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ioannides5Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
They need to buff GWF's at-wills... thats it damage wise.
Ive never been in dungeon, use a GF gs 11.6 and get kicked every time i get in party.... pretty sure if you don't have a personnel group your chances of getting into this dungeon with a melee unit is slim to none. at least that's what Ive experienced over and over.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Once they fix the stacking AS bug, people will want tanks in their parties once again.
Also not sure why everyone assumes GWF is intended to be a DPS class. They're still fighters, a defender class, so I see them as off-tanks which are slightly more DPS-specced.
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ioannides5Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Once they fix the stacking AS bug, people will want tanks in their parties once again.
Also not sure why everyone assumes GWF is intended to be a DPS class. They're still fighters, a defender class, so I see them as off-tanks which are slightly more DPS-specced.
Sigh, GWFs being "off-tanks" is completely OPTIONAL. The mere fact that GWFs have 2 forms of tier gear; a dps set, and a tank set, clearly shows the class has 2 options, 1 being a striker, and second being off-tank (think of it like a warrior in WoW).
Since CN is not a big challenge as long as CW can knock the adds off, I normally take my GF/GWF friends to my group and play CW myself. So far, I have never had any trouble with clearing dungeon but some random DC refuse to join my group after seeing there are GW/GWF in my group LOL.
Comments
(i also consider u are running ure GF with mates, so they allow u to join them, this does not mean another class other then u would be more effective then u are?)
... Right now the only thing broken that impacts on my DPS is the Resistance Ignored % from my Constitution Score that does not work so i respecced back to dex based build even though i started with 16 STR and 16 CON (+2 Tiefling 18). I have unbuffed 22 STR, 20 CON, 18 DEX at the moment and i can tell you that just putting those 4 points from the first CON build into DEX changed the amount of DPS i do. I still have 10% resistance ignored from constitution which is not working so theorically my DPS should go up once it gets fixed. A fix to CON, though, will not buff up my damage by 10% because Plague Fire and Student of Sword Sentinel feat (debuff defense on crit) consistently debuffs the defense of the mobs i hit making the resistace ignored % only worth for the first-second hit most of the time.
So at least for my Destroyer build, fixing the only thing not working right now, will not make me able to outdps my very good geared guildies playing TR, GF (conqueror build), and CW (dps spec). The reason is quite simple: the GWF at wills do very lousy damage. IF a balance fix should be made for GWF is to raise up consistently the damage of at-will powers. As i already showed in another thread with a screenshot, having around 5k power makes my best single target at-will only do roughly 620 damage per hit (not considering weapon enchants and crits).
My team dosn't carry me, I am not a pity spot I bring threat management to my group I can keep aggro off my cleric's because we work as a team I can play as any of my character but I get ASKED to play my gf because he brings real valuable skills to the group.
The community's perception of the GF is wrong, we can tank its just players have been spoilt by 1 hit Tank for too long they want an instant taunt you need to fight for it and you need to be geared.
A huge part of the problem is the developers. They state in their own typed words the numbers GWF are doing are "inline" with ALL other classes. I think the numbers they see are from low level "soft" trash mobs kills (not elite trash) and NOT the high level elite trash or single target dps which is pathetic. I am talking the ones that takes dps to take down. In other dungeons other than CN I have witnessed CW do appropriate aoe dps for the mob level, all the while I am swinging doing 1/3 the damage and losing threat after a CW pops his skill which is up as fast as mine is.
There was nothing wrong with the GWF before they nerfed it, it was a very strong class and was on par with the CW and TR for damage but it was AOE damage. The thread that got it nerfed if folks remember was a pvp thread, they were devastating, but then some class has to be....??.
The dev stating the GWF is also "still a little too strong" should likely be canned, laugh, along with the class or at the very least he/she should be sent home and called up when no other devs are available, similar to how a GWF gets parties.
This is what I assumed happened in the developers meeting, and in my own opinion it seems a likely scenario. They did not need two AOE mega classes, one also being fairly well armored...that was the end of the GWF.
Now plug in the pathetic skills/feats and lack of them working or scaling properly and you have what you see now, a purebred second string bench warmer called up when no one else will fill the parties.
Not mad, I play a GWF and have over a 10k GS and have fun playing it, its just not needed in the game currently because of developer choices.
Note, I also went with a pure dex/power build from the get go as I knew after the nerf nothing else would be viable.
You are probably reaching the level of DR that mobs have with your ArP. I found that mobs have at least 10% DR, and some have more. I have not tested the mobs in high level dungeons yet, mainly because the combat log is so archaic, but also because I just run in pugs.
Discipline of str = no 6% is added to the character sheet in str (unlike on a cleric wisdom heroic feat gives a flat % to healing on the character sheet)
Armor specialisation = same like the GF defense heroic feat not working/not listed in the character sheet
Steely defense = again not listed ore not working
my gwf has just reached the paragon tree a few lvls ago so maybe in a few days i can make this list longer, but as it stands ive invested about 9 points in feats not showing an improvement to my character(either it isent showing ore the impact is so minimal nothing changes?)
Another thing to note is that all attacks can be interupted by sprint, including daily's that exist out of 2 portion animation , like savage advance, u can interupt this = prone the enemy's, and not execute the cut so u dont lose ure AP.
I just imagine these classes could be better if all of there feats worked like intented, and if the information on the skills was more acurate.
For GWF to be worth bringing over another class into a group it will need to be buffed. Perhaps buffing damage so it's doing more aoe damage than a rogue does single target (like 150% or something). Maybe adding control but I don't think that's a great idea. Maybe making AOE tanking as a GWF viable. Basically GWF needs to do something at least as good as the other classes. You could argue that GWF is the highest AOE dps, and that it already does do something better than the otehr classes. But the issue is, when single target dps will kill mobs faster the aoe dps is basically useless, unless you are tanking the mobs effectively.
Not only that but single target dps will reduce the incoming damage to your party as the damage is focused on one monster.
In a group of 5 monsters as example the rogue will have killed 4 monstres while the GWF is still fighting 5 of them thus with the rogue only 1 monster is still attakcing your party. Even then, the rogue will have killed all 5 monsters while the GWF is fighting 5.
IMO the best way to make GWF a desired candidate for grouping with strangers is to buff it's AOE damage. This will have very little effect on pvp since you are lucky to have 3 targets to hit with aoe in pvp unless you are fighting newbs or people that aren't so good at the game.
The only thing a GWF currently offers a group really is the debuff to resistances when they crit. Most puggers overlook this though unfortunately and this is probably why the devs are saying the numbers are inline since this debuff is increasing the damage for 5 players.
That being said I"ll gladly take a GWF in my groups, but that's mostly because I don't find the content hard enough to warrant taking only the best party makeup to a dungeon. Now if there is 2 GWFs in a group, I will probably leave tbh.
GF I can't really comment on since I havne't played one, at all. They do seem to be a subpar choice for t2 and on though, but as my previous comment, you don't need the best party makeup anyways.
Also not sure why everyone assumes GWF is intended to be a DPS class. They're still fighters, a defender class, so I see them as off-tanks which are slightly more DPS-specced.
Sigh, GWFs being "off-tanks" is completely OPTIONAL. The mere fact that GWFs have 2 forms of tier gear; a dps set, and a tank set, clearly shows the class has 2 options, 1 being a striker, and second being off-tank (think of it like a warrior in WoW).