I don't think it's that f2p games get more money per player that drives the model, it's the fact that most f2p games just aren't good enough to hold onto subscribers. Therefore some money from f2p is better than very little money from hardly any subscribers. It's the lazy way out for developers, instead of making compelling content.
... Which completely fails to explain why at least one of the largest budget games ever, made by one of the most prominent RPG devs in the western world, went F2P after spending a while on a subscription model - that they spent that budget going to the bar and didn't ad any good content.
I've played subscription MMO's and F2P MMO's for years now. There are good and bad MMO's in each lot... My last MMO, Uncharted Waters Online, had *tons* of content and it has been free to play for years. Great game all around. What you're saying simply isn't true. The F2P model isn't the cause of games being made cheaply and having little compelling content - though it is probably true that some F2P games are like that. It's on the developer's shoulders.
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merrybelleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
I have a lifetime subscription on Champions, and I don't pay a dime into that game anymore because I get a monthly zen stipend. I spent $300 and that was it. I don't think Cryptic is going to go that route anymore. They are with Perfect World now, and PW knows how to gouge people. $200 for a big founder's pack. People bought it. I viewed that pack and poo pooed it because I didn't think it was worth the money. I'm not into drows. The spider mount is big and ugly. And I read on forums that the panther isn't so great. The Guardian pack is fine and I'm glad they offered something more reasonable. So far I have spent a little under $150. It's less than i would have spent for a lifetime sub, and I might spend $50 more, but that will probably be it for me. So in my case, they made less. But in many cases they have made more.
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wildswannMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The subscription model is dying. And someone always feels they're losing out with the subscription model ppl with RL commitments be it job or family often think there's a disadvantage compared with players who can play more hours. With ftp someone who can't afford to spank RL money or plain doesn't want too think they're at a disadvantage. In truth it's all abit of a smoke screen if someone would rather pay a sub then it's kind of problem solved buy in game currency every month just like paying a sub and there's always the option to use game gold so the game can be played perfectly well without spending a dime.
I come here from COX where me and mu hubby subscribed for 8 years even when we wern't playing so that we could accumulate vet rewards we also were subscribed to wow concurrently though for wow wed buy 3 months or so then cancel for half a year cause it got dull and there was no vet rewards. we also bought every single costume pack and 10 costume slots 3 enhanment trays and maxed out our bank slots..... ect ect wed have so bought lifetime if it had been an option. when COX closed we each had 9000paragon points(zen)
Currently we are GOLD in BOTH sto and CO and we are considering LIFETIME in sto since its discounted. if CO puts lifetime on sail wed buy it in a nanosecond but sto we are considering. we both have ALL the CO costume packs (just in case) and several costume slots we also expanded the account bank as much as we could cause we prefer acct based stuff to char based stuff. (we typically do not buy any costume bit that is char only)
In Now my hubby has expanded his bank a bit and ive bought a few fashion packs and dyes I sell the bits I don't use on AH since I don't have the bank space to hold onto them. I figure if there is every te option to buy fashion packs for account ill do that but until then im only buying what I need to survive... which included weding skirt, cortizen top(looks like a gypsy top) wedding mask, jester top, and a lot of dye.
Id love a subscription or lifetime mode that gave 5k zen a month maybe a few little perks here and there. some sort of veterans package. My biggest issue with F2P is actually what it does to the players who complain about everything with a price tag. complaining its P2W ALL f2P games are P2W because free to play is just that free to mess around see if you like the game. a free to play game is just advanced cripple-ware you do have add something either time or money or good auctionhouse skill to the game if you want to "win". No-one ever called any mmo Free to win.
you have to buy bags, bank slots, and respec tokens. oh and spend money to get companions that can level past 15. and to increase mount speed. and to level professions.
these are gameplay necessities. seems to me like a p2p in disguise. the f2p model is supposed to cater to those who choose to pay, not put down those who don't by restricting such fundamental elements of MMOs. Zen shop should be for people who want cool looking mounts, or dyes, or weapon skins, not the bread-and-butter elements of RPGs.
I would agree if not for the Zen exchange. Basically you have people that want to work at a job and people that want to work in game. Those that work at a job buy Zen with real money and get what they want. Those that prefer to work in game (I am old school and still feel like I am cheating myself if I buy something in an MMORPG with real money) can gather astral diamonds (mostly by selling things at auction) and trade for Zen. In most games I have way more money than I can ever spend because there is nothing I want on the auction house. F2P games with an exchange like this one give me a real reason to make money as I can buy anything I want in the Zen store simply by earning astral diamonds in the game.
the reason you don't see subscription based games anymore isnt because people wont play them, its because mmos build from the bottom up... if recent mmos had been released with endgame content they could have strived with the subscription fee. MMORPGs used to be rush to max level go on massive raids with friends PvP for goals. you cannot make a subscription MMORPG with 3 days worth of content Swtor proved that. would people be leaving this game if there were tons of end game content?
in short build from the top down, you can make the leveling fun and enjoyable but in the end MMO's are for building friends you want to play with for years.
WoW hit max level tons of raids and dungeons to start accumulating gear
Daoc find your gear make a template pvp throughout the years gaining realm levels
Swtor level for 3 days quit
NW Level for 3 days wait for new content and hope they add what you want with no communication
... Which completely fails to explain why at least one of the largest budget games ever, made by one of the most prominent RPG devs in the western world, went F2P after spending a while on a subscription model - that they spent that budget going to the bar and didn't ad any good content.
Which is the 'largest budget game' ever that you're referring to? is it SWTOR? If it is I think that kind of proves my point. I bought that game, subscribed for a couple of months and quit after discovering just how poor the endgame content was.
I do not play subscription games. I simply can not come over the fact that I'd have to pay just to login into a game I have already spent money. No matter how little money it is, it is just wrong IMO.
I personally don't think I will continue playing for much longer because of thier F2P Model. The game is actually quiet fun save the numerous bugs and other issues.
The game is starting to feel exceptionally restrictive. The bag space and bank space is enough to just manage if you are constantly selling items, fusing runes and shifting items in and out. However, as I collect epic gear and other items like enchants runes I know I will be rune out or have to discard/sell them. This doesn't include that if you idle a pet the gear gets dump into your inventory. I thought I could manage with what they have given but I know I won't so buying a bag becomes a nessesity.
Removing runes from you gear cost currently 30+k Astral diamonds so unless you get sales at the rate of 24k refined a day(which takes a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of time to collect given now every time I que group leaders are just kicking people to geta class that they want which makes it extremely difficult get anything but the pvp astral diamonds) Even at best doing 24k a day would take 11 days to change out your gear. So three chears for excessively restrictive!
I won't pay for respec, I actually got up to level 42 CW and realized my spec was messed so I infact remade my toon from scratch to avoid quiting period over the fact they make you spay 6 dollars to respec. Sure you can save astral diamonds but with the huge cost in anything you want to do live the above example good luck not paying for it.
I would love to spend money but the zen market is excessively overprice so I just won't
So as things stand now I can PVP fairly unrestricted and its quiet fun and feels right baring the afk'rs the fact when someone and the game starts no one else joins in so your left with 2-4vs5. There are numberous other bugs, however, I can live with that cause they will fix them eventually.
So this is what I am left with
Fun and interesting Game
Extremely restrictive in game play unless you pay.
Overpriced Market if you do decide to pay.
Simple things that should be free aren't
A company that says Open Beta but takes money(Yea right)(rolls eyes) This not a huge issue just one of those things that show a company true colors.
I will keep going for a few weeks, however, I am pretty sure I know I wont be playing. My first experience with Perfectworld product if I do end up leaving it will be my last.
I do not play subscription games. I simply can not come over the fact that I'd have to pay just to login into a game I have already spent money. No matter how little money it is, it is just wrong IMO.
I'd also rather translate F2P as Free To Pay.
I think all subscription games these days offer you a free trial (usually a month) to see if you like the game before you actually need to consider a subscription.
The problem with the f2p is that it really isn't free, SOMEONE has to pay or the game will very quickly shut down. So that means the devs have to design 'pay barriers' into the game. The better f2p games at least do a decent job of this, sadly Cryptic's approach is putting a lot of people off, including me. You like to experiment with different builds? Tough that's $6 a shot even if you only want to move a single point. I'd much rather pay $15 a month and be able to experiment to my heart's content.
Aion is become FTP, SWOTR is becoming FTP ... what do you expect. the hard part of FTP is maintain it game economy by add "police" inside, cause exploiter and cheater are will always around. like I always said, this game is fine, handler is not.
Well I use League of Legends as an example. I have never once felt restricted in that game nor has it ever felt cumbersome. Yet I have put quiet a bit of my cash in the game, not because I had to because I enjoyed the game wanted to support it and got something that gave me a sense of price in my champions.
You can do every thing in this game with time, however, it's way to much work and annoying to say the least. Not to mention restictive as heck. I don't think I could stomach the anoyance of the restictions or would I ever pay what they are askiong for such simple items.
Freemium like Turbine games is the best.
If you want, you can buy everything making "shop money" in game (same as actual with the AD-zen conversion)
If you want, you can pay a monthly fee and have lot of features unlocked (who is not paying the monthly fee must buy them from the store) and have a monthly bonus of "shop money"
Pay2Win model gives a lot more money than subscription based (if you are not WoW with 10mil subs), so there is no question, if you want to just grab money asap after releasing your new game - definately go F2P.
However like people said "i have not so much money to play F2P games", so ill stick with P2P and realy hope another big MMO release still have balls to release as P2P and have enough creativity and gameplay to be a successfull MMO, not another ripoff going F2P in next half year after release.
This game has to remain free to play, adding a monthly sub would change the entire game! My suggestion would be to roll out physical copies of the game which I would definitely buy to support the Devs/Cryptic. The only reason I haven't purchased any of the packs is because its around 1500 in my currency which will be ending soon anyway. And as I have found, playing closes the gap between purchased players and free accounts (it makes no difference when playing) . This does not mean I wont spend real money on certain aspects in future for this game( just like any hobby) it is really fun to play and the first MMO I actually enjoy!
This game has to remain free to play, adding a monthly sub would change the entire game! My suggestion would be to roll out physical copies of the game which I would definitely buy to support the Devs/Cryptic. The only reason I haven't purchased any of the packs is because its around 1500 in my currency which will be ending soon anyway. And as I have found, playing closes the gap between purchased players and free accounts (it makes no difference when playing) . This does not mean I wont spend real money on certain aspects in future for this game( just like any hobby) it is really fun to play and the first MMO I actually enjoy!
Actually, not really. They could still do it similar to STO: Sub gets a stipend per month, + expirable basic zen shop bonuses (bank slots, character slots, bag slots), first access to new content, and etc. The main concern is that right now, there really isn't enough content to justify a sub. I wouldn't be surprised if they have both sub and lifetime sub options when it's out of open beta.
Unfortunately, history shows developers make more money from morons impulse purchasing $10 bags than $15/mo. I'm disgraced to see players who have dumped thousands into this game already....it truly makes me feel sorry for the industry as a whole.
WoW got in before the lock. Honestly, if/when WoW realizes that more money is made per player with a F2P model versus a P2P model we will probably never see another major P2P game again. If WoW were not sitting out there as a role model companies would stop wasting their time with P2P. How many games have we watched turn to F2P after their P2P did not work out well enough? Companies need to realize that if you are not WoW then P2P is probably not going to work out for you.
You are forgetting the most invaluable mechanic of the role playing game which is freedom of choice!! people can buy, play how they want to. Why would anyone want to change this?
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neomouserMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I like the idea of premium accounts that come with full bags and bank, unlimited respecs, and an appropriate amount of character slots...but how much would it cost? Do you go for a one-time purchase or do a subscription for these features? Or an option for each, but the subscription provides a monthly stipend of Zen?
1) I would not have touched this game if it was p2p, I never played wow because if I am going to play for a game I want to own it. If I am not paying for it then I am a bit more lenient.
2) I consider a micro transaction to be around 1 or 2 dollars, 5 is pushing it for me. I know my personal definition is not the one many use, however I do not thing that $30-$40 is anywhere near micro, I might as well save a little more and buy a game with that much money.
3) The biggest thing to notice on the outrageous prices are the mounts, this becomes far less noticeable end game if you do nothing but dungeon crawls.
4) Far less noticeable is that one person who rolls need on everything and probably has a few greater bags of holding, but I am going to be annoyed at that person for always rolling need, not that they have bag space for all the junk.
Closing: I feel like all of the zen prices have one too many zeros tacked on to them. I would spend $10 on this game if I could get a tier 3 mount for all my characters, a honey badger for one, and some bags, but since PWE is charging $100 for that, no way am I paying for it. There are people who have, good for them I guess is about all I can say. The ad prices feel like they have two too many zeros tacked on, considering that each character can only refine 24k a day, and most of the trash is in the 100k's of ad. Mounts, the biggest problem cost 2.8M or so ad for one character. At the max of 500ad for 1zen you could get about 5.6k zen for that price, enough to buy a tier 3 horse for all of your characters and 5 more character slots, who would then all have a tier 3 horse.
Comments
... Which completely fails to explain why at least one of the largest budget games ever, made by one of the most prominent RPG devs in the western world, went F2P after spending a while on a subscription model - that they spent that budget going to the bar and didn't ad any good content.
I've played subscription MMO's and F2P MMO's for years now. There are good and bad MMO's in each lot... My last MMO, Uncharted Waters Online, had *tons* of content and it has been free to play for years. Great game all around. What you're saying simply isn't true. The F2P model isn't the cause of games being made cheaply and having little compelling content - though it is probably true that some F2P games are like that. It's on the developer's shoulders.
Currently we are GOLD in BOTH sto and CO and we are considering LIFETIME in sto since its discounted. if CO puts lifetime on sail wed buy it in a nanosecond but sto we are considering. we both have ALL the CO costume packs (just in case) and several costume slots we also expanded the account bank as much as we could cause we prefer acct based stuff to char based stuff. (we typically do not buy any costume bit that is char only)
In Now my hubby has expanded his bank a bit and ive bought a few fashion packs and dyes I sell the bits I don't use on AH since I don't have the bank space to hold onto them. I figure if there is every te option to buy fashion packs for account ill do that but until then im only buying what I need to survive... which included weding skirt, cortizen top(looks like a gypsy top) wedding mask, jester top, and a lot of dye.
Id love a subscription or lifetime mode that gave 5k zen a month maybe a few little perks here and there. some sort of veterans package. My biggest issue with F2P is actually what it does to the players who complain about everything with a price tag. complaining its P2W ALL f2P games are P2W because free to play is just that free to mess around see if you like the game. a free to play game is just advanced cripple-ware you do have add something either time or money or good auctionhouse skill to the game if you want to "win". No-one ever called any mmo Free to win.
I would agree if not for the Zen exchange. Basically you have people that want to work at a job and people that want to work in game. Those that work at a job buy Zen with real money and get what they want. Those that prefer to work in game (I am old school and still feel like I am cheating myself if I buy something in an MMORPG with real money) can gather astral diamonds (mostly by selling things at auction) and trade for Zen. In most games I have way more money than I can ever spend because there is nothing I want on the auction house. F2P games with an exchange like this one give me a real reason to make money as I can buy anything I want in the Zen store simply by earning astral diamonds in the game.
in short build from the top down, you can make the leveling fun and enjoyable but in the end MMO's are for building friends you want to play with for years.
WoW hit max level tons of raids and dungeons to start accumulating gear
Daoc find your gear make a template pvp throughout the years gaining realm levels
Swtor level for 3 days quit
NW Level for 3 days wait for new content and hope they add what you want with no communication
Which is the 'largest budget game' ever that you're referring to? is it SWTOR? If it is I think that kind of proves my point. I bought that game, subscribed for a couple of months and quit after discovering just how poor the endgame content was.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
I'd also rather translate F2P as Free To Pay.
The game is starting to feel exceptionally restrictive. The bag space and bank space is enough to just manage if you are constantly selling items, fusing runes and shifting items in and out. However, as I collect epic gear and other items like enchants runes I know I will be rune out or have to discard/sell them. This doesn't include that if you idle a pet the gear gets dump into your inventory. I thought I could manage with what they have given but I know I won't so buying a bag becomes a nessesity.
Removing runes from you gear cost currently 30+k Astral diamonds so unless you get sales at the rate of 24k refined a day(which takes a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of time to collect given now every time I que group leaders are just kicking people to geta class that they want which makes it extremely difficult get anything but the pvp astral diamonds) Even at best doing 24k a day would take 11 days to change out your gear. So three chears for excessively restrictive!
I won't pay for respec, I actually got up to level 42 CW and realized my spec was messed so I infact remade my toon from scratch to avoid quiting period over the fact they make you spay 6 dollars to respec. Sure you can save astral diamonds but with the huge cost in anything you want to do live the above example good luck not paying for it.
I would love to spend money but the zen market is excessively overprice so I just won't
So as things stand now I can PVP fairly unrestricted and its quiet fun and feels right baring the afk'rs the fact when someone and the game starts no one else joins in so your left with 2-4vs5. There are numberous other bugs, however, I can live with that cause they will fix them eventually.
So this is what I am left with
Fun and interesting Game
Extremely restrictive in game play unless you pay.
Overpriced Market if you do decide to pay.
Simple things that should be free aren't
A company that says Open Beta but takes money(Yea right)(rolls eyes) This not a huge issue just one of those things that show a company true colors.
I will keep going for a few weeks, however, I am pretty sure I know I wont be playing. My first experience with Perfectworld product if I do end up leaving it will be my last.
I think all subscription games these days offer you a free trial (usually a month) to see if you like the game before you actually need to consider a subscription.
The problem with the f2p is that it really isn't free, SOMEONE has to pay or the game will very quickly shut down. So that means the devs have to design 'pay barriers' into the game. The better f2p games at least do a decent job of this, sadly Cryptic's approach is putting a lot of people off, including me. You like to experiment with different builds? Tough that's $6 a shot even if you only want to move a single point. I'd much rather pay $15 a month and be able to experiment to my heart's content.
You can do every thing in this game with time, however, it's way to much work and annoying to say the least. Not to mention restictive as heck. I don't think I could stomach the anoyance of the restictions or would I ever pay what they are askiong for such simple items.
So the game really becomes pay to win not F2P
If you want, you can buy everything making "shop money" in game (same as actual with the AD-zen conversion)
If you want, you can pay a monthly fee and have lot of features unlocked (who is not paying the monthly fee must buy them from the store) and have a monthly bonus of "shop money"
However like people said "i have not so much money to play F2P games", so ill stick with P2P and realy hope another big MMO release still have balls to release as P2P and have enough creativity and gameplay to be a successfull MMO, not another ripoff going F2P in next half year after release.
Actually, not really. They could still do it similar to STO: Sub gets a stipend per month, + expirable basic zen shop bonuses (bank slots, character slots, bag slots), first access to new content, and etc. The main concern is that right now, there really isn't enough content to justify a sub. I wouldn't be surprised if they have both sub and lifetime sub options when it's out of open beta.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
EVE online begs to differ...
Subscription, and no cash shop?
2) I consider a micro transaction to be around 1 or 2 dollars, 5 is pushing it for me. I know my personal definition is not the one many use, however I do not thing that $30-$40 is anywhere near micro, I might as well save a little more and buy a game with that much money.
3) The biggest thing to notice on the outrageous prices are the mounts, this becomes far less noticeable end game if you do nothing but dungeon crawls.
4) Far less noticeable is that one person who rolls need on everything and probably has a few greater bags of holding, but I am going to be annoyed at that person for always rolling need, not that they have bag space for all the junk.
Closing: I feel like all of the zen prices have one too many zeros tacked on to them. I would spend $10 on this game if I could get a tier 3 mount for all my characters, a honey badger for one, and some bags, but since PWE is charging $100 for that, no way am I paying for it. There are people who have, good for them I guess is about all I can say. The ad prices feel like they have two too many zeros tacked on, considering that each character can only refine 24k a day, and most of the trash is in the 100k's of ad. Mounts, the biggest problem cost 2.8M or so ad for one character. At the max of 500ad for 1zen you could get about 5.6k zen for that price, enough to buy a tier 3 horse for all of your characters and 5 more character slots, who would then all have a tier 3 horse.