Why even bother to play gwf or gf

watanagger

I currently have a guardian fighter with 10.6k GS and 2nd highest dps in groups usually that don't kick me. Gf by far does everything superior to gwf but that's not saying too much. I gave up trying to pursue this class any longer other than probably doing dailies on it. Does anyone know if there going to some how find a way to make melee classes better of fix the threat system so healers don't immediately gain aggro if I get pushed back. Until then if you're a gwf or gf reroll and play a cleric, trickster rogue, or control wizard. Its frustrating because you spent numerous hours on a character and you expect it to be somewhat viable in the game.

tenkuro

You do understand that this is a team game and it was intentional that GF couldn't keep threat on every single adds right? GF can easily keep threat on bosses and that's their roll in pve. You're not suppose to keep threat on everything and make it a tank and spank game. If you wanted that, you can just play a true tab target mmo.

ravengage

tenkuro wrote: »

GF can easily keep threat on bosses and that's their roll in pve.

*Role

And not in T2 it isn't. Using a GF to tank a boss in T2 is basically wasting a group slot, you might as well 4 man.

watanagger

@Tenkuro I understand that tanks are not supposed too keep aggro on everything but when we lose aggro on the boss, the healer immediately gains aggro because hes second on the threat chart but we don't regain aggro on the boss which forces us to rebuild our aggro from 0. Also the other 3 classes have mechanics to kite/tanking. The Trickster rogue has decoys and a temp invincibility. The cleric has the same ability as the control wizard to kite adds while casting another heal. Also that the other 3 classes have the dodge mechanic while the Gf has the block mechanic is not as useful as the dodge mechanic in my opinion because the other 3 classes gain stamina to use dodge again faster then it takes the GF to build up the block meter. Also the thing that makes GF and GWF useless is that dps is useless unless its for the boss which Trickster Rogues are great for because the norm is to constantly knock the adds off the cliff.
@Ravengage I completely agree with you, I wouldn't want a GF or GWF in a group if I was the other 3 classes it just wastes a slot.

dilanio

tenkuro wrote: »

You do understand that this is a team game and it was intentional that GF couldn't keep threat on every single adds right? GF can easily keep threat on bosses and that's their roll in pve. You're not suppose to keep threat on everything and make it a tank and spank game. If you wanted that, you can just play a true tab target mmo.

Pretty sure the multiple aoe taunts the GF are give disagree with your assessment.

watanagger

@ dilanio The Aoe taunts work great but the neverwinter community would prefer a extra healer instead of a tank who does decent damage because damage is somewhat irrelevant in this game

trickshaw

watanagger wrote: »

... the neverwinter community would prefer a extra healer instead of a tank who does decent damage because damage is somewhat irrelevant in this game

This isn't Hello Kitty Online: Island Adventures!

You planning on healing your enemies to death?

khail33

trickshaw wrote: »

This isn't Hello Kitty Online: Island Adventures!

You planning on healing your enemies to death?

Or running ahead pulling everything, dropping shield then die and blame on the tank:

Y u no pickup mobs on me? HALP!

watanagger

@trickshaw As I mentioned earlier damage is somewhat irrelievent because of the norm to knock the adds off the cliff and Trickster Rogues outdoing GF and GWF in single target dps for the boos

@Khail33 Yup that's what I hear all the time, shield is not as viable as dodge is. Whether your dps or tank spec for GF, the mitigation of damage is kinda hard to obtain with gear and which takes forever to clear instances. Thats why the common comp is 2 clerics, 2 trickster rogue 1 control wizard or vise versa

megamanx7

tenkuro wrote: »

You do understand that this is a team game and it was intentional that GF couldn't keep threat on every single adds right? GF can easily keep threat on bosses and that's their roll in pve. You're not suppose to keep threat on everything and make it a tank and spank game. If you wanted that, you can just play a true tab target mmo.

most ppl will tell you that it is the rogues job to handle the boss so not sure what your getting at

watanagger

@megamanx7 I think he's trying to say that's their perceived role to be but its not the ideal class to specifically handle them at this state of the game

gatekeeperj

megamanx7 wrote: »

most ppl will tell you that it is the rogues job to handle the boss so not sure what your getting at

Thats because as of now the role and threat mechanics are fubar in this game til they fix this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

Rogues are not SUPPOSED to tank the bosses ffs, not their job. And i do hope they fix this because not everyone want to play a rogue, a healer or a orb stroking wizard. People are gonna start leaving and not come back if they dont make the GF and GWF viable for groups, then the game is doomed.

gsgcmc2000

From my exp being a gf in a group it feels like im being carried through. This especially feels that way when there are tank companions in the group who can hold aggro way better than me and im working my *** off trying to keep a boss or a tough add off the healer or tr..very frustraing

matrias88

My guild and i have stopped recruiting GF/GWF and have kicked all the GWF but kept a couple GF, were now going to be a guild with entirely 100+ CW/TR/DC playerbase because the other 2 classes are abysmal ill admit GF can be usefull to some extent every now and then with keeping agro off the DC/CW but GWF is just....WOW i have never seen such a useless class in any game and ive played 10+ MMO's and 50+ RPG's over 25 years. Im not angry at the people who play these classes im just hoping they get a huge buff it makes me sad.

ballsackington

matrias88 wrote: »

My guild and i have stopped recruiting GF/GWF and have kicked all the GWF but kept a couple GF, were now going to be a guild with entirely 100+ CW/TR/DC playerbase because the other 2 classes are abysmal ill admit GF can be usefull to some extent every now and then with keeping agro off the DC/CW but GWF is just....WOW i have never seen such a useless class in any game and ive played 10+ MMO's and 50+ RPG's over 25 years. Im not angry at the people who play these classes im just hoping they get a huge buff it makes me sad.

The hero we all deserve...

watanagger

@gatekeeperj I agree that it's ridiculous to believe that rogues and clerics are being used to tank in instances instead of guardians.
@gsgcmc2000 Yea I also felt like I was carrying my own weight in T1 dungeons but once I started to get to T2 I felt like dead weight, also that its almost impossible to get into one because your always getting kicked for a cleric trickster rogue or control wizard.
@matrias88 At this state of the game I agree with you that the other 3 classes are superior but you should keep some well geared Gf incase they have a buff patch for them. Gf are excell in doing aoe damage and has some capability n hold 4-5 adds. GWF I have no idea what they are going to do for them lol

ganjaman1

I outdps everyone non stop that;'s why i play the GF hue.

gatekeeperj

ganjaman1 wrote: »

I outdps everyone non stop that;'s why i play the GF hue.

You are so full of $hit, shut up and get out.

Pics of 5 different dungeons with u @ the top or u is just a trolly little troll that need to go away.

Back on topic:

We gwfs definitely need something, im hesitant to say just a general damage buff b/c those tend to unbalance games.
But something definitely needs to be done or the game is gonna become a ghost town.

P.S. Dear Cryptic,......As a bonus, it would be really nice if when you fix us, you could give the gwf some threat generation so we could off-tank when needed also, not asking for much, just maybe 1 or 2 little threat generating powers we could spec into if we wanted to off-tank. Thank you

sanctumlol

gatekeeperj wrote: »

You are so full of $hit, shut up and get out.

Pics of 5 different dungeons with u @ the top or u is just a trolly little troll that need to go away.

Back on topic:

We gwfs definitely need something, im hesitant to say just a general damage buff b/c those tend to unbalance games.
But something definitely needs to be done or the game is gonna become a ghost town.

P.S. Dear Cryptic,......As a bonus, it would be really nice if when you fix us, you could give the gwf some threat generation so we could off-tank when needed also, not asking for much, just maybe 1 or 2 little threat generating powers we could spec into if we wanted to off-tank. Thank you

actually, GF is the highest dps lol.

mownage123

They said they are working on class balance in the "near future" but with all the other bugs going on right now, its probably not high on their list of priorities.

watanagger

@sanctumlol and @gatekeeperj The GF actually do top dps because their aoe ability cleave and most GF stack crit. Also they do the most dps because of the enchantment plague fire and teneberous, also their 4 set timeless is incredibly overpowered in my opinion. If you don't know what the timeless set does for GF here it is.
This image is from Envy but I have the identical set of gear

@moownage123 The game was announced as a open beta so it's kind of a excuse saying we have bugs without getting too much blame.

emilemo

Here is my take on the situation. We are pretty much past the point of ignoring that there is sth very wrong in Neverwinter.

From the first time I started the game I knew the GWF was my class. I rolled one and he was a wimp at least till I got my cleric to save my wimpy a$$. I tried the rest of the classes and they all pretty much outdamaged me ( the TR in particular was a beast). Im not even close to endgame but what I read here is not good at all.. Anyway should I let this force me into playing a class that is not to my liking/style or should i just drop the game? No and no. I play for fun and Im having fun right now. When I stop having fun ( hopefully they'll just de-nerf the GWF by then) I'll move on to another class(if the paladin is here) or another game. Point is, if you do enjoy sth do it, when you stop enjoying it do sth else. Dont play a lvl 15 toon, for example, with lvl 60 mindset. It will ruin your fun if you think that the awesome gwf or gf you're making wont find a spot in endgame.

sanctumlol

watanagger wrote: »

@sanctumlol and @gatekeeperj The GF actually do top dps because their aoe ability cleave and most GF stack crit. Also they do the most dps because of the enchantment plague fire and teneberous, also their 4 set timeless is incredibly overpowered in my opinion. If you don't know what the timeless set does for GF here it is.
This image is from Envy but I have the identical set of gear

@moownage123 The game was announced as a open beta so it's kind of a excuse saying we have bugs without getting too much blame.

Actually, No, we don't stack crit. Envy stacks crit because he's PvP oriented. It's 3k Recovery > 2k ArP > Power with crit from gear.
For PvE Stalwart is much better dps than Timeless. Tenebrous is horrible for PvE, but insane for PvP.

http://i.imgur.com/vbyFk0m.jpg

This is how a parse in CN looks like. Wolfy = GWF, I'm a GF. http://i.imgur.com/aabvQ1K.png

kr0owe

GF can hold aggro without even be specced for tanking, use block plus atk (stab) together with other tanking skills and you will keep aggro as long as you hit the mobs.

But yeah i agree that DC is a bit to much of an aggro magnet, they should have second/third highest threat not the highest and its kinda impossible to hit all mobs at once, atleast if you got a CW that throw away the mobs after black hole (like allways) and you lose aggro.

It also take a bit to long to build threat when you taunt skills only hit 1-5 enemys (if this skills even work)...

watanagger

@sanctumlol I'm not familiar with Stalwart set bonus and what enchantment would you recommend instead of tenebrous? I found it viable because people would rather have me dps than spam dailies with alot of recovery. The only way I would see needing that much recovery is if I'm spamming terrifying impact for the stun/mitigation. I would have to do dps where we couldn't knock the adds off the cliff. I basically took the spot of a rogue. It's still very difficult to find a pub group for tier 2 dungeons because I instantly get kicked. The only reason I'm able to do tier 2 dungeons is if I have a pre-made ready, if you don't most likely you won't be able to do them. Sanctum did you find difficulty in finding groups when you were farming Tier dungeons for gear?

@emilemo Yea playing a character that you're in favor of but realizing that it's going to be useless endgame is very discouraging but it give you and opportunity to try a new class that you wouldn't necessarily try before. Who knows you might like that class more than the other, no harm in trying the 3 main classes LOL

watanagger

@kr0owe As I mentioned earlier our block mechanic in my opinion is no where as useful as the dodge mechanic the other 3 classes have. It's faster to regain stamina for dodging than regaining your blocking meter. The only way I see them some what fixing this is to eliminate knocking mobs off the cliff and some how increase the capacity of how many mobs/adds we can tank. This is just my assumption, if we stacked deflection and defense I doubt that we would be able to hold more than 7-8 adds the most and speced tank for powers and feat

sadmummy

In my case because I have 3 charges! I love to charge

sanctumlol

watanagger wrote: »

@sanctumlol I'm not familiar with Stalwart set bonus and what enchantment would you recommend instead of tenebrous? I found it viable because people would rather have me dps than spam dailies with alot of recovery. The only way I would see needing that much recovery is if I'm spamming terrifying impact for the stun/mitigation. I would have to do dps where we couldn't knock the adds off the cliff. I basically took the spot of a rogue. It's still very difficult to find a pub group for tier 2 dungeons because I instantly get kicked. The only reason I'm able to do tier 2 dungeons is if I have a pre-made ready, if you don't most likely you won't be able to do them. Sanctum did you find difficulty in finding groups when you were farming Tier dungeons for gear?

@emilemo Yea playing a character that you're in favor of but realizing that it's going to be useless endgame is very discouraging but it give you and opportunity to try a new class that you wouldn't necessarily try before. Who knows you might like that class more than the other, no harm in trying the 3 main classes LOL

I make my own groups. I know a lot of the top players in the server, so I don't really have trouble getting groups together. Recovery is not only good for spamming daily (which should always be villain's menace), lunging, enforced threat and frontslide surge are a huge component of your dps. 30-40% comes from cleave and rest comes from abilities, so it's still insane.

For enchantments use Silverys to get to 3k recovery, if you have 3k recovery use Darks to get to 2k ArP.

irk2013

ravengage wrote: »

*Role

And not in T2 it isn't. Using a GF to tank a boss in T2 is basically wasting a group slot, you might as well 4 man.

Except I will do more dps than you overall soooooo who should we kick?

jealle

i was wondering about the block mechanic and wether we could slot if for our at will powers instead working like mouse 2 blocks, and give us a dodge like the other classes for the shift key

nokturnel

megamanx7 wrote: »

most ppl will tell you that it is the rogues job to handle the boss so not sure what your getting at

I've been testing every class, GWF and GF both need some serious buffs. I could pretty much easily tank any boss on my TR. That's a big problem. Rogues shouldn't be tanks.

A regular MMO would make GWF into Off-tank class, while making GF into a main tank class, but both are pretty much pointless not only in end-game but throughout the game entirely. This needs to be addressed.
-Threat needs to be addressed across the board, the threat levels are all kinds of incorrect right now
- Bosses should pretty much slaughter anyone that isn't a GF or GWF
- GWF needs a tank spec, they're a melee class, rogue already covers the "I'm here to single target DPS" aspect, GWF needs a niche. Since GF and CW can already AoE mobs better I don't really understand what GWF's purpose is right now. I suggest giving GF fantastic single target tanking (good for bosses) with decent aoe tanking while giving GWF decent single target tanking and great aoe tanking.

Bosses in general need better design, throwing adds at the team to try and make a boss hard is boring. Almost as boring as just increasing it's hp to try to make a boss hard. WoW's been making boss raids for so long right now and while they are all pretty easy to understand a good amount actually use good boss mechanics. I don't understand how new MMOs don't look at the most popular MMO on the market and go "Ok, how can we make boss fights better than these?" instead of "Oh let's just throw more adds at them"

The Foundry is pretty much the single redeeming factor NW has for me atm, but even that lacks a lot of tools needed so that at least the playerbase can make good, challenging content that is balanced correctly.