A beta in an mmo, ends the exact moment you decide to not wipe anymore. The moment everything that happens is staying forever, it's not a beta anymore.
Don't you see how easy it is for them to just put the tag "beta" on the title. Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way.
Don't you see the irony of what you just stated? "Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way."
You calling the game as you please "not beta any more," doesn't make it not beta. The company that makes and markets the products defines whether it's still in beta; not you or the public. With all the bug, glitches, and exploits, most people would agree that it is a beta product, even with a cash shop.
As someone who works in software development, creating large business systems, I cannot stress how important this statement is. Complex systems require rigorous testing by large user bases. And games are enormously complex, typically orders of magnitude more complex than your typical business system.
During the development of any given release of a product, we will cut many releases, and during the beta releases, we cut many releases of them. The beta testers are well aware that it is beta software, and that they should not use it to perform mission-critical operations, because it likely contains defects that will negatively impact their operations. But the reason we do this is so that we can collect feedback, identify and fix genuine defects, and release corrected builds back to the users as quickly as possible.
But here's the catch: in a system like Neverwinter, the game consists of various systems that are integrated with one another. These include billing systems, rendering systems, server communication systems, and a host of other systems that we cannot possibly imagine. They all have to be tested. And believe me when I tell you that defects will appear in the wild that will never show up in the development environment.
This is why it's a beta test. They are trying to ensure that they have covered as much of the system as they reasonably can. And even when they finally decide that it is officially out of beta status, they'll now that there are still defects, but that the vast majority of them are resolved.
I suspect that there are numerous problems here. Google has abused "beta status" for so long that people no longer understand what it means. The term is now synonymous with "cover your ***", and that's a damned shame. To those of us who take software development seriously, beta status is a real term, with a defined, deterministic meaning, and it has concrete value.
To end-users, though, it usually means something along the lines of "The product has been released, and I can use it." They do not realize that it means that they have entered a "QA Agreement" with the developers of the product. When you download the product and begin using it, you agree to identify any defects and report them. But the vast majority of users who download beta software never submit a defect report or feedback of any kind.
And this is where the central problem lays. What the players think a beta is and what the developers think a beta is are frequently two very different things.
If they want us to test thier product and help them discover bugs and such, why are they charging us 6 bucks for a respec? wouldn't unlimited respecs during beta be a + for catching and eliminating bugs? Then charge when they go live? They should give 2 character slots and 3 temp character slots so we can test all the classes, and then make you choose 2 at the end of beta, unless you buy them beforehand.
I mean why do they make you pay to be an efficient tester? it makes no sense. Unless this is not a beta test, and is a release, then It would make sense.
Don't you see the irony of what you just stated? "Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way."
You calling the game as you please "not beta any more," doesn't make it not beta. The company that makes and markets the products defines whether it's still in beta; not you or the public. With all the bug, glitches, and exploits, most people would agree that it is a beta product, even with a cash shop.
It is true that PWE has said that this is Open Beta, so what exactly...EXACTLY...will be the changes that move the game from "Open Beta" to "Released"?
If they want us to test thier product and help them discover bugs and such, why are they charging us 6 bucks for a respec? wouldn't unlimited respecs during beta be a + for catching and eliminating bugs? Then charge when they go live? They should give 2 character slots and 3 temp character slots so we can test all the classes, and then make you choose 2 at the end of beta, unless you buy them beforehand.
I mean why do they make you pay to be an efficient tester? it makes no sense. Unless this is not a beta test, and is a release, then It would make sense.
You don't have to pay $6 for a respect. You can exchange your AD for zen to get a respect token. All without paying, if that is your choice.
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kittztrixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited May 2013
I can call my cat "dog" that doesn't make my cat a dog.... hah, but it makes my cat think he's a dog.... woof
seriously, its an open BETA, you dont have to spend one single penny of real money if you dont want to, the fact that you have just means you have more money than patience, as is frequently demonstrated on the forums. I have spent real money because i want to, because i can and because i bought stuff that made my life a little easier, like big bags and teleport scrolls
guys a few people have ruined the smoothe flowing of the game thats all, we all need to realise that if they wanted to wipe it and start again and refund our cash that they could do that and we would have no say in it, we own nothing...even if it wasn't in beta we would own nothing, we are paying for the time we spend here in their domain, we should report the bugs as is expected and trust them to do the best they can for the game since that results in more money for them and more enjoyment for us in the long run. If they wiped the game they would not only remove the exploiters but the good people who have helped to raise the game and all the valuable lessons fixing all the problems too. We have to trust them to do the best they can. I'm not saying we have to trust them please, more we have to trust them so there... its their game not ours we're:mad: just party crashers, some pay some don't but no one owns **** so stop crying... get on with the task of reporting the bugs... x :mad:
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sadmummyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Don't you see the irony of what you just stated? "Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way."
You calling the game as you please "not beta any more," doesn't make it not beta. The company that makes and markets the products defines whether it's still in beta; not you or the public. With all the bug, glitches, and exploits, most people would agree that it is a beta product, even with a cash shop.
I am not calling it as I please. I am saying facts of why it isnt a beta anymore, while they just put the tag on the name. I am not "simply calling it non beta". I am saying: if an mmo is not wiping anymore, everything that happens is staying for good. So, it's not a beta, you aren't testing anything, you are leaving the results of everything for good.
you are NOT playing a released game, you are playing beta.
stop the QQ and do your JOB, TEST THE GAME...FEEDBACK ANY ISSUES OR SUGGESTIONS YOU MAY HAVE!
You're a fool or you're young.
It's called double speak. It's used car salesmen tactics and ethics. The fact that you dont see this or acknowledge this leads me to believe
a) you're young
b)you're delusional
c)you've not seen enough game companies lie/cheat/steal to become jaded and cynical enough to see reality.
It's a launch. Soft launch as the industry is calling it.....whatever...it's a launch with a thinly veiled excuse of beta to cover their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
It's a launch. Soft launch as the industry is calling it.....whatever...it's a launch with a thinly veiled excuse of beta to cover their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
But look how well it's working, it's genius! They get to have their cake and eat it too. None of the drawbacks of doing a real test, like not making any money. But ALL of the benefits of a release. And all they had to do is add a couple words after the title, ****ing brilliant. People are falling for it left and right.
Sorry but i've never in my life seen an mmo ban people during a Beta test. This game is NOT beta if they are banning regardless of the impact the exploits had on the in game economy period end of story. The minute an mmo starts to hand out bans it is no longer a beta test.
A beta in an mmo, ends the exact moment you decide to not wipe anymore. The moment everything that happens is staying forever, it's not a beta anymore.
Don't you see how easy it is for them to just put the tag "beta" on the title. Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way.
The irony in this statement is overwhelming.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
A beta in an mmo, ends the exact moment you decide to not wipe anymore. The moment everything that happens is staying forever, it's not a beta anymore.
Don't you see how easy it is for them to just put the tag "beta" on the title. Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way.
Beta is just a term to define the state that the software is in. Some beta software is only made available to a select number of users, while other beta programs are released to the general public. In most cases, a software developer will release multiple "beta" versions of a program during the beta phase. Each version includes updates and bug fixes that have been made in response to user feedback. The beta phase may last anywhere from a few weeks for a small program to several months for a large program.
The term beta implies that the software needs further development before it reaches it's release phase. Some companies will offer beta for free while others may charge for early or any access. Some companies may charge during the entire beta phase.
You are confusing the term "beta" to mean free. Beta is simply a way of defining what state the software is in. If a company chooses to do a soft release open beta, e.g. no character wipe. This should never be confused as a Full Released version of the software. Beta is only defining what state the software is in. Crashes, instabilities, bugs are inherent in beta.
This is why the game is in beta. Although you may feel this game is not beta because it does not follow certain aspects of most mmo. It is beta due to the fact it has crashes, bugs and instability. If you do not like Beta wait for the full release version of the game.
Sorry but i've never in my life seen an mmo ban people during a Beta test. This game is NOT beta if they are banning regardless of the impact the exploits had on the in game economy period end of story. The minute an mmo starts to hand out bans it is no longer a beta test.
Your lack of experience with the phenomenon does not mean that it has never occurred before. What would you have them do? Leave the exploiters free to continue to abuse the game? Allow them to continue to find new ways to abuse the systems into the final, released version?
They know who these people are. The software is a beta version, regardless of what any of the naysayers or conspiracy theorists may say. All this wailing and nashing of teeth about the beta status, this claiming that it is a soft launch and folks insisting that it has actually been released is just so much hullabaloo raised by folks who do not know one whit about software development. A bunch of morbidly obese armchair quarterbacks yelling at TV screens, thinking they can play the game better than the players on the field.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
I know some people who tested a bug in the OPEN BETA Sunday, reported it and were banned from every PWE game across the board for doing so.
Good to know PWE is willing to lose income from every game because of a bug in one beta.
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Key phrase that you highlighted. "demonstrating a product to potential consumers"
Uh, 'potential'? Not when cash is in the mix.
I agree with the rest of it tho, find a bug? report it and move on.
In SDLC terms tho, the terminology of 'soft release' versus 'open beta' can get confusing and misleading, probably because it's marketing folks that control the publicity, not experienced software folks.
My thoughts exactly! Once you have "customers", you have a finished product you are selling. MMOs are never really finished but finished enough to sell is the key point.
I know some people who tested a bug in the OPEN BETA Sunday, reported it and were banned from every PWE game across the board for doing so.
Good to know PWE is willing to lose income from every game because of a bug in one beta.
I have to give you a major thumbs up.
Banning in a Beta? That is a hoot!!
Banning in Live? That is expected!!!
Any questions folks?
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It is beta due to the fact it has crashes, bugs and instability. If you do not like Beta wait for the full release version of the game.
You heard it here first, folks: every MMO is in beta!
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sirphobos1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
They aren't wiping characters, anyone can play, and they are charging for cash shop items. The game is in full release, regardless of what term they want to throw on it.
Your lack of experience with the phenomenon does not mean that it has never occurred before. What would you have them do? Leave the exploiters free to continue to abuse the game? Allow them to continue to find new ways to abuse the systems into the final, released version?
They know who these people are. The software is a beta version, regardless of what any of the naysayers or conspiracy theorists may say. All this wailing and nashing of teeth about the beta status, this claiming that it is a soft launch and folks insisting that it has actually been released is just so much hullabaloo raised by folks who do not know one whit about software development. A bunch of morbidly obese armchair quarterbacks yelling at TV screens, thinking they can play the game better than the players on the field.
I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and Ultima for one so my experience with beta's is quite extensive. No i do think the people that mad a ton of RL money should be prosecutted. But to ban people in a supposed beta test is un heard of thats all im saying. open beta or closed beta it doesnt matter. When the term beta is used it means a wipe will happen when officially launched which would complete negate all dmg done by all exploits not just the AH but even the GWF farming exploits and all.
EDIT: And as far as the people that just abused the exploit for in game purposes, yes i do think they should be able to continue playing and abusing found bugs in a beta. You know why? because the people that figured out these exploits in the first place are the people that will find more before launch and isnt that what BETA is all about? finding bugs to fix before launch??
Calling this a beta is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. They are not wiping the characters. They are selling <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the store for real money. They are banning people. If this is a beta then every mmo out there is in beta because there is no difference.
Only thing beta about this is the fact they are still selling the founders packs. Which they said they wouldn't anymore.
So one can come to the conclusion this is officially still in beta so they can keep selling the founders packs and in the process shaft everyone that bought them before, not knowing they have all the time in the world to see how the game pans out before splashing their money at PW.
The software is a beta version, regardless of what any of the naysayers or conspiracy theorists may say. All this wailing and nashing of teeth about the beta status, this claiming that it is a soft launch and folks insisting that it has actually been released is just so much hullabaloo raised by folks who do not know one whit about software development. A bunch of morbidly obese armchair quarterbacks yelling at TV screens, thinking they can play the game better than the players on the field.
This same subject about software versions keeps popping up. I will paste something I wrote earlier on the subject:
Yes, if you restrict it to just the word "beta". But when you say "beta test" you imply that it is a test, not the real thing. A test launch for a moon rocket won't carry the astronauts all the way to the moon and just declare mid way that it's not a test anymore. Things that happen during a test don't affect the real thing, that's the whole purpose of it. When you don't wipe a beta it stops being a test and it instead becomes a release with an excuse. It is quite literally releasing an unfinished game and should be treated as such.
People wake the F up. Its free. Costs $0. You are not entitled to anything. If you don't like the game go elsewhere. No one cares.
Im pretty sure no one said anything about hating the game(though i did skip some comments i think). I happen to enjoy the game immensely and will be continuing to play and pay as i see fit. Were really just debating the termonolgy they are using.
The minute they took money AND stated there would be no wipe they screwed up.
This is not in my eyes a Beta. By some of the arguments above you're saying we're 'testing' and it's not the finished product.
Well one question. What about bugs that WILL have a long standing effect on the economy which is lets fact it a large part of the end product. No wipe means any bugs that effect the economy over a fairly long term (anyone wanna argue with that?) WILL effect the end product. So to me this is no beta.
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tjockusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
regardless they ****ed up their reputation and the game, the fact its beta or not beta is out the window. Many people have already left.
I say - Let more leave. The more that leaves the more exploiters will be gone... They have ruined my gameplay by corrupt the AD maket into oblivion. Now a fellow player like me - that didnt exploit (bummer, ey?), is way left out from the economy in this game. Sad... I liked the game. Will still play it. But what could be a long time relation with this otherwise good game might just be gone...
Comments
Don't you see the irony of what you just stated? "Calling something as you pelase doesn't make it be that way."
You calling the game as you please "not beta any more," doesn't make it not beta. The company that makes and markets the products defines whether it's still in beta; not you or the public. With all the bug, glitches, and exploits, most people would agree that it is a beta product, even with a cash shop.
If they want us to test thier product and help them discover bugs and such, why are they charging us 6 bucks for a respec? wouldn't unlimited respecs during beta be a + for catching and eliminating bugs? Then charge when they go live? They should give 2 character slots and 3 temp character slots so we can test all the classes, and then make you choose 2 at the end of beta, unless you buy them beforehand.
I mean why do they make you pay to be an efficient tester? it makes no sense. Unless this is not a beta test, and is a release, then It would make sense.
It is true that PWE has said that this is Open Beta, so what exactly...EXACTLY...will be the changes that move the game from "Open Beta" to "Released"?
You don't have to pay $6 for a respect. You can exchange your AD for zen to get a respect token. All without paying, if that is your choice.
seriously, its an open BETA, you dont have to spend one single penny of real money if you dont want to, the fact that you have just means you have more money than patience, as is frequently demonstrated on the forums. I have spent real money because i want to, because i can and because i bought stuff that made my life a little easier, like big bags and teleport scrolls
guys a few people have ruined the smoothe flowing of the game thats all, we all need to realise that if they wanted to wipe it and start again and refund our cash that they could do that and we would have no say in it, we own nothing...even if it wasn't in beta we would own nothing, we are paying for the time we spend here in their domain, we should report the bugs as is expected and trust them to do the best they can for the game since that results in more money for them and more enjoyment for us in the long run. If they wiped the game they would not only remove the exploiters but the good people who have helped to raise the game and all the valuable lessons fixing all the problems too. We have to trust them to do the best they can. I'm not saying we have to trust them please, more we have to trust them so there... its their game not ours we're:mad: just party crashers, some pay some don't but no one owns **** so stop crying... get on with the task of reporting the bugs... x :mad:
I am not calling it as I please. I am saying facts of why it isnt a beta anymore, while they just put the tag on the name. I am not "simply calling it non beta". I am saying: if an mmo is not wiping anymore, everything that happens is staying for good. So, it's not a beta, you aren't testing anything, you are leaving the results of everything for good.
You're a fool or you're young.
It's called double speak. It's used car salesmen tactics and ethics. The fact that you dont see this or acknowledge this leads me to believe
a) you're young
b)you're delusional
c)you've not seen enough game companies lie/cheat/steal to become jaded and cynical enough to see reality.
It's a launch. Soft launch as the industry is calling it.....whatever...it's a launch with a thinly veiled excuse of beta to cover their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Respecing during a beta test should not take a bunch of work to do. It makes testing inefficient.
But look how well it's working, it's genius! They get to have their cake and eat it too. None of the drawbacks of doing a real test, like not making any money. But ALL of the benefits of a release. And all they had to do is add a couple words after the title, ****ing brilliant. People are falling for it left and right.
The irony in this statement is overwhelming.
Beta is just a term to define the state that the software is in. Some beta software is only made available to a select number of users, while other beta programs are released to the general public. In most cases, a software developer will release multiple "beta" versions of a program during the beta phase. Each version includes updates and bug fixes that have been made in response to user feedback. The beta phase may last anywhere from a few weeks for a small program to several months for a large program.
The term beta implies that the software needs further development before it reaches it's release phase. Some companies will offer beta for free while others may charge for early or any access. Some companies may charge during the entire beta phase.
You are confusing the term "beta" to mean free. Beta is simply a way of defining what state the software is in. If a company chooses to do a soft release open beta, e.g. no character wipe. This should never be confused as a Full Released version of the software. Beta is only defining what state the software is in. Crashes, instabilities, bugs are inherent in beta.
This is why the game is in beta. Although you may feel this game is not beta because it does not follow certain aspects of most mmo. It is beta due to the fact it has crashes, bugs and instability. If you do not like Beta wait for the full release version of the game.
Your lack of experience with the phenomenon does not mean that it has never occurred before. What would you have them do? Leave the exploiters free to continue to abuse the game? Allow them to continue to find new ways to abuse the systems into the final, released version?
They know who these people are. The software is a beta version, regardless of what any of the naysayers or conspiracy theorists may say. All this wailing and nashing of teeth about the beta status, this claiming that it is a soft launch and folks insisting that it has actually been released is just so much hullabaloo raised by folks who do not know one whit about software development. A bunch of morbidly obese armchair quarterbacks yelling at TV screens, thinking they can play the game better than the players on the field.
Good to know PWE is willing to lose income from every game because of a bug in one beta.
My thoughts exactly! Once you have "customers", you have a finished product you are selling. MMOs are never really finished but finished enough to sell is the key point.
I have to give you a major thumbs up.
Banning in a Beta? That is a hoot!!
Banning in Live? That is expected!!!
Any questions folks?
Oh snap!!!
I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and Ultima for one so my experience with beta's is quite extensive. No i do think the people that mad a ton of RL money should be prosecutted. But to ban people in a supposed beta test is un heard of thats all im saying. open beta or closed beta it doesnt matter. When the term beta is used it means a wipe will happen when officially launched which would complete negate all dmg done by all exploits not just the AH but even the GWF farming exploits and all.
EDIT: And as far as the people that just abused the exploit for in game purposes, yes i do think they should be able to continue playing and abusing found bugs in a beta. You know why? because the people that figured out these exploits in the first place are the people that will find more before launch and isnt that what BETA is all about? finding bugs to fix before launch??
Only thing beta about this is the fact they are still selling the founders packs. Which they said they wouldn't anymore.
So one can come to the conclusion this is officially still in beta so they can keep selling the founders packs and in the process shaft everyone that bought them before, not knowing they have all the time in the world to see how the game pans out before splashing their money at PW.
This same subject about software versions keeps popping up. I will paste something I wrote earlier on the subject:
Yes, if you restrict it to just the word "beta". But when you say "beta test" you imply that it is a test, not the real thing. A test launch for a moon rocket won't carry the astronauts all the way to the moon and just declare mid way that it's not a test anymore. Things that happen during a test don't affect the real thing, that's the whole purpose of it. When you don't wipe a beta it stops being a test and it instead becomes a release with an excuse. It is quite literally releasing an unfinished game and should be treated as such.
Im pretty sure no one said anything about hating the game(though i did skip some comments i think). I happen to enjoy the game immensely and will be continuing to play and pay as i see fit. Were really just debating the termonolgy they are using.
This is not in my eyes a Beta. By some of the arguments above you're saying we're 'testing' and it's not the finished product.
Well one question. What about bugs that WILL have a long standing effect on the economy which is lets fact it a large part of the end product. No wipe means any bugs that effect the economy over a fairly long term (anyone wanna argue with that?) WILL effect the end product. So to me this is no beta.
I say - Let more leave. The more that leaves the more exploiters will be gone... They have ruined my gameplay by corrupt the AD maket into oblivion. Now a fellow player like me - that didnt exploit (bummer, ey?), is way left out from the economy in this game. Sad... I liked the game. Will still play it. But what could be a long time relation with this otherwise good game might just be gone...