So I hit 50 a little while back, and I have a question:
Will cleric be less game-breaking for pvp at 60?
Because at the moment, we can just pop Astral Shield and it just facetanks everything. You can tank up to 4+ people, as long as they don't push you out for too long.
How is it game breaking to take damage? I do not understand the need of this community to cry for the nerf of every single useful spell or move for every class. I hope everyone understands that once you guys force Cryptic to nerf Astral shield that the days of farming t2 dungeons are over. You better carry 100 health pots with you everywhere you go. If thats the game you want then you're welcome to it but count me out.
How is it game breaking to take damage? I do not understand the need of this community to cry for the nerf of every single useful spell or move for every class. I hope everyone understands that once you guys force Cryptic to nerf Astral shield that the days of farming t2 dungeons are over. You better carry 100 health pots with you everywhere you go. If thats the game you want then you're welcome to it but count me out.
I'm sorry, in what part is "taking damage" involved in this issue? Its actually the direct opposite of that.
This is called "denying the problem". Just because people have to go to near exploit lengths to beat a T2 dungeon, doesn't mean that it still isn't broken for pvp.
Not to mention the whole problem with this is that it has 100% uptime, huge area, and a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation that can be stacked on top of each other. In pvp, this is just ridiculous, in pve, well...it makes the clerics better tanks than the designated tanking class(but that's really an aggro problem)>
TL:DR I'm tallking about pvp and you think its not broken even though its clearly the best damage reduction skill in the game by miles.(that can STACK)
I'm sorry, in what part is "taking damage" involved in this issue? Its actually the direct opposite of that.
This is called "denying the problem". Just because people have to go to near exploit lengths to beat a T2 dungeon, doesn't mean that it still isn't broken for pvp.
Not to mention the whole problem with this is that it has 100% uptime, huge area, and a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation that can be stacked on top of each other. In pvp, this is just ridiculous, in pve, well...it makes the clerics better tanks than the designated tanking class(but that's really an aggro problem)>
TL:DR I'm tallking about pvp and you think its not broken even though its clearly the best damage reduction skill in the game by miles.(that can STACK)
It is not broken.
You're just overreacting.
If 4 people can't infinitely daze/incapacitate you, they deserve to die a thousand times and lose the match in the most epic way. Just sayin'
It is not broken.
You're just overreacting.
If 4 people can't infinitely daze/incapacitate you, they deserve to die a thousand times and lose the match in the most epic way. Just sayin'
2 clerics, how are you gonna stunlock someone and out-do the damage of 60% reduction and heals on both of them?
Not to be just obvious: But its unrealistic to think that this scenario is 2v5, usually they do have other teamates.
Overreacting?
You just described that I needed 4 people to kill one guy.
You didn't specify 2 clerics. You should have mentioned that. If your post lacks information it's not my fault, in the scenarion you didn't describe, which is 1 cleric and 4 other people AS is not that great. If a CW pick on the cleric it's done.
Right now, Astral Shield doesen't need a nerf, it needs an adjustement. Not allowing it to stack with another Astral Shields is fine. But allowing it to stack with Hallowed Ground and foresight is fine too as they are different skills.
Directly nerfing it will just be conuterproductive for the class itself, which already lacks self healing power and has an immense threat output.
Describing a class only for how it performs in PvP is detrimental to the game's normal development as that also includes PvE.
You didn't specify 2 clerics. You should have mentioned that. If your post lacks information it's not my fault, in the scenarion you didn't describe, which is 1 cleric and 4 other people AS is not that great. If a CW pick on the cleric it's done.
Right now, Astral Shield doesen't need a nerf, it needs an adjustement. Not allowing it to stack with another Astral Shields is fine. But allowing it to stack with Hallowed Ground and foresight is fine too as they are different skills.
Directly nerfing it will just be conuterproductive for the class itself, which already lacks self healing power and has an immense threat output.
Describing a class only for how it performs in PvP is detrimental to the game's normal development as that also includes PvE.
Yeah well it is a pvp thread, I just assumed you would realize that a cleric would most likely have a teamate.
AS needs to not be so much and not stack.
30% reduction on an area that you can cast/leave is too much. Maybe something like 15%*(or 30% total) and increased heals or something(so there is skill involved). Right now its a drop that essentially lessens the damage to a ridiculous extent given it stacks amongs other reductions and itself.
Unfortunately the clerics heals are iffy in pvp, but that is an entirely different topic. Right now, in pvp this issue is more important. It is not detracts from the skill needed to play the game, it makes every class spec/gear to stop one skill on one class. That is always wrong.
EDIT: THIS IS FOR PVP, NOT PVE
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teflondon75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
When I pug queue and I'm the only cleric on the team I die more than anybody else lol. 2 shields stacking is silly and simply not allowing the DR to stack would fix this. 1 shield can be burst through easily.
It's fine as it is. Don't forget that it's dispellable. A good rotation of knockback + stuns can pretty much already render you dead. And Rogues at 60 with high GS do an immense amount of damage making it really hard even in 1v1 situations.
Yeah well it is a pvp thread, I just assumed you would realize that a cleric would most likely have a teamate.
Which doesen't necessarily means another cleric.
Please, do us all a favor and play a cleric on an epic instance. Then, come back and tell us that AS (not stacked with another) should be nerfed cause i can assure you that's the only thing that can save your butt in there.
It's kinda funny to see people making assumptions on something they obviously have no clue about.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I want this class in NW.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Astral shield stacking does need to be removed from game. A single cleric though in one is definitely not a problem.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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naamapeikkoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2013
PvP seems to change every bracket. 50-59 is the one where clerics are immortal. TTK is a lot lower in lvl60 pvp though and clerics are quite easy to focus down.
I'm just hoping this doesn't go where Rift pvp did while ago, there were so many healers in every pvp match that players decided that healing was OP and it got nerfed. Healing was never the problem but amount of healers was. Just like two clerics in a team in this game makes them pretty hard to take down.
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deberserkerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 48
edited May 2013
I understand your point, but in my opinion popping Astral Shield and tank 2-3 players at the same time isn't gamebreaking. As a cleric you don't deal that much damage, and it's up to the other team to decide what target they should attack. I've been in countless pvp matches were enemies have decided to attack me instead of someone else and have ended up losing the fight because of that. It's like they're attacking a brick wall with their fists - the wall dosn't take damage but dosn't do damage either. Besides there are both Control Wizards and Trickster Rogues with insane damage right now - dealing around 30k crits at times. I think it's pretty balanced actually right now - I know a lot of people would think I'm crazy for saying that though. Tanks can also absorb a crazy amount of damage.
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manuelito75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
How is it game breaking to take damage? I do not understand the need of this community to cry for the nerf of every single useful spell or move for every class. I hope everyone understands that once you guys force Cryptic to nerf Astral shield that the days of farming t2 dungeons are over. You better carry 100 health pots with you everywhere you go. If thats the game you want then you're welcome to it but count me out.
Amen to this!
Also, first time I see people playing DC asking for a nerf of their best spell/mechanic...
AND it is not like you tank 3 players and you kill them all, is it?
I have seen also GF holding spots in PvP for ages, so let us call for a nerf there too? Oh please...
What we have here is a TR finally figuring out that his easy targets are starting to catch up to him and be able to counter his "I WIN" button.
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dancingchimpMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
as long as they don't push you out for too long.
omg.. so knock them out?
It seems to be people who whine are usualy rouges that can not just stand toe to toe and kill people. OMG THEY MOVED! .. gee, I guess I go to another target. Man, he needs to be knocked out. I guess I go for another target....
stupid rouges.
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gleasieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
This is someone who has clearly never played a Cleric. AS pretty much = Cleric. Take that away and they will be nigh on useless in PvP. You also don't mention that both teams can have a Cleric, it's not like there can only be the AS of a single team in 1 area. And being able to take 2-3 players? A. Those players must be pretty bad to not be able to just knock the cleric out of the AS, daze it, kill it. B. So what? It's not like the cleric can take 2-3 players AND kill them all, that would be a different situation entirely. Play better, don't blame your inability to take down a superior player on the class.
And you mentioned multiple clerics, once, though seemed to expect everyone to assume that's what you meant... Right? Stack a bunch of clerics together on a team and yeah, it's gonna be pretty ridiculous. But the same can be said for almost every class. Ever faced a group of 4-5 TRs? It's not fun... 4-5 CWs? Good luck getting close enough to even tickle them.
At this point it would be stupid for PW to start making big changes like drastically nerfing AS. Wait until more people are 60, there are more organized teams that are actually competent at the game, then see how the balance is among them and adjust.
I understand your point, but in my opinion popping Astral Shield and tank 2-3 players at the same time isn't gamebreaking. As a cleric you don't deal that much damage, and it's up to the other team to decide what target they should attack. I've been in countless pvp matches were enemies have decided to attack me instead of someone else and have ended up losing the fight because of that. It's like they're attacking a brick wall with their fists - the wall dosn't take damage but dosn't do damage either. Besides there are both Control Wizards and Trickster Rogues with insane damage right now - dealing around 30k crits at times. I think it's pretty balanced actually right now - I know a lot of people would think I'm crazy for saying that though. Tanks can also absorb a crazy amount of damage.
The difference here is that you don't understand that the tanking people isn't from player skill. In other MMO's when a healer can tank, its either because of a huge gear difference or he knows what he's doing. As far as I've seen, clerics just face-tank in AS. They don't even move.
It becomes more and more a problem the more clerics there are in a match. Stacking AS definitely needs to be fixed(as I see everyon here agreeing on it even).
Why bother rolling GF if a cleric can do your job better and give the entire team protection as well? It almost negates an entire other class.
-Just so you guys know, I'm not a TR. Don't have much intention to play one either. TR's can be dealt with in many other ways so I'm not just talking about how there burst isn't effective or w/e.
What seems to be the problem is that people don't realize this is BETA. Things can CHANGE, and that is what needs to happen.
Proposed Idea:
Nerf AS to 15%
Either give it a healing bonus while in AS or buff the heals themselves too. That way the clerics have to do more while in as and it becomes more involved than drop-face-tank.
I'll be fine with nerfing Astral Shield as soon as they take away the -40% healing PASSIVE clerics have. Until then AS is fine. Or until they add -40% damage passives to all damage dealers.
I'll be fine with nerfing Astral Shield as soon as they take away the -40% healing PASSIVE clerics have. Until then AS is fine. Or until they add -40% damage passives to all damage dealers.
It is 40% less healing for self. Not for the entire party.
Which is mainly there so we don't have the same problems with healers we have in wow..
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nvmbanelingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Either give it a healing bonus while in AS or buff the heals themselves too. That way the clerics have to do more while in as and it becomes more involved than drop-face-tank.
what?
are you ****ing serious?
they would destroy clerics. you obviously don't play clerics.
get to level 60. it's a whole 'nothing ballgame. stop basing PVP off level 50-59.
they also need to remove righteousness before they do anything to nerf cleric healing.
Seems most of the ppl here have never played a cleric in PvP and talking mumbojumbo all over the forum. Make a cleric, hit 60 , play some games and then come back and talk again. AS is a huge area? Its reduce dmg its too much? Srsly , its nothing since the cleric cant stay so long there cause aof all the cw stun/knockback , gf charge/knockback , tr smoke bomb and armor pen skills which removes the shield. A GF killing me 3 shot with full pvp gear , its normaly charge knock back and the next hit i see the timer. So , stop talking bull**** please and play the game. the cleric is the useless person in the PvP area so far, everyother class made the cleric silly , and the cleric have what? One Astral shield on the groud with all other the classes who easly trow the party from the area. Oh , dont forget the 40% reduce self healing , thats the cherry on the cake........ period.....
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tarsvetMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
Play a cleric at L60 and you will see you are doing something wrong, I have even had 1v1s and died due to them being much better geared than me and knowing how to play thier character and how to deal with DCs with AS.
I have been melted in a 1-2 seconds while in my AS from full health with other healing ticking on me by 2-5 enemy just DPSing me down. I have even been Starved of Divine Power by very good players catching me when low on DP. Killed by good players CCing me at the right times or Perma CCing me..
So basically gear up and learn how to play your character , rather than whining on the forums ...
Play a cleric at L60 and you will see you are doing something wrong, I have even had 1v1s and died due to them being much better geared than me and knowing how to play thier character and how to deal with DCs with AS.
I have been melted in a 1-2 seconds while in my AS from full health with other healing ticking on me by 2-5 enemy just DPSing me down. I have even been Starved of Divine Power by very good players catching me when low on DP. Killed by good players CCing me at the right times or Perma CCing me..
So basically gear up and learn how to play your character , rather than whining on the forums ...
It's like this in every game. Someone can't handle a class = NERF.
Any competent PvP'r or PvP team will focus the Cleric first anyway. No amount of healing is gonna save me from getting dunked instantly when focused by the other team. The OP should rethink his strategy or maybe hang out with better PvPers.
Any game where I go unchecked = free win Any game where the other team focus me is another story. So if you are afraid of clerics and the Astral Shield it seems like its only the OP with that problem.
It is 40% less healing for self. Not for the entire party.
Which is mainly there so we don't have the same problems with healers we have in wow..
Wow I never new my Passive was only for me!? OMGZ THX FOR THE INFO
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radlackMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited May 2013
2 good clerics camping a node can be hard to kill. But some well timed CC/Dailies will take them out. The downfall of our healing in this game is big Single Target heals. Sure we can crit on Healing Word but its not going to be a 50% instant heal or anything. Try to lure the non ranged DPS out of the double AS and blow them up. Or just let the double Cleric have that node and cap the others.
2 good clerics camping a node can be hard to kill. But some well timed CC/Dailies will take them out. The downfall of our healing in this game is big Single Target heals. Sure we can crit on Healing Word but its not going to be a 50% instant heal or anything. Try to lure the non ranged DPS out of the double AS and blow them up. Or just let the double Cleric have that node and cap the others.
Every game I play, they usually cap whatever node the Cleric isn't on.
When you hit 60 come back here and ask again if you still think it's "game breaking"
My 60 CW has absolutely no problem taking out clerics. I am not saying they are easy. You just need to know how each class functions in order to beat it. In fact, a good GF can last a lot longer. Are they breaking the game too?
In any case, PvP in this game is a complete joke. For many that participate, it's just a way to power level, power gear up, doing dailies, all while standing at the spawn.
Did you guys even read the OP? All he asked was that will the skill balance out in level 60 pvp, since he's level 50 now, and it feels unbalanced. No need to declare a war because of that.
Comments
I'm sorry, in what part is "taking damage" involved in this issue? Its actually the direct opposite of that.
This is called "denying the problem". Just because people have to go to near exploit lengths to beat a T2 dungeon, doesn't mean that it still isn't broken for pvp.
Not to mention the whole problem with this is that it has 100% uptime, huge area, and a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation that can be stacked on top of each other. In pvp, this is just ridiculous, in pve, well...it makes the clerics better tanks than the designated tanking class(but that's really an aggro problem)>
TL:DR I'm tallking about pvp and you think its not broken even though its clearly the best damage reduction skill in the game by miles.(that can STACK)
It is not broken.
You're just overreacting.
If 4 people can't infinitely daze/incapacitate you, they deserve to die a thousand times and lose the match in the most epic way. Just sayin'
I want this class in NW.
2 clerics, how are you gonna stunlock someone and out-do the damage of 60% reduction and heals on both of them?
Not to be just obvious: But its unrealistic to think that this scenario is 2v5, usually they do have other teamates.
Overreacting?
You just described that I needed 4 people to kill one guy.
Right now, Astral Shield doesen't need a nerf, it needs an adjustement. Not allowing it to stack with another Astral Shields is fine. But allowing it to stack with Hallowed Ground and foresight is fine too as they are different skills.
Directly nerfing it will just be conuterproductive for the class itself, which already lacks self healing power and has an immense threat output.
Describing a class only for how it performs in PvP is detrimental to the game's normal development as that also includes PvE.
I want this class in NW.
Yeah well it is a pvp thread, I just assumed you would realize that a cleric would most likely have a teamate.
AS needs to not be so much and not stack.
30% reduction on an area that you can cast/leave is too much. Maybe something like 15%*(or 30% total) and increased heals or something(so there is skill involved). Right now its a drop that essentially lessens the damage to a ridiculous extent given it stacks amongs other reductions and itself.
Unfortunately the clerics heals are iffy in pvp, but that is an entirely different topic. Right now, in pvp this issue is more important. It is not detracts from the skill needed to play the game, it makes every class spec/gear to stop one skill on one class. That is always wrong.
EDIT: THIS IS FOR PVP, NOT PVE
Which doesen't necessarily means another cleric.
Please, do us all a favor and play a cleric on an epic instance. Then, come back and tell us that AS (not stacked with another) should be nerfed cause i can assure you that's the only thing that can save your butt in there.
It's kinda funny to see people making assumptions on something they obviously have no clue about.
I want this class in NW.
I'm just hoping this doesn't go where Rift pvp did while ago, there were so many healers in every pvp match that players decided that healing was OP and it got nerfed. Healing was never the problem but amount of healers was. Just like two clerics in a team in this game makes them pretty hard to take down.
Amen to this!
Also, first time I see people playing DC asking for a nerf of their best spell/mechanic...
AND it is not like you tank 3 players and you kill them all, is it?
I have seen also GF holding spots in PvP for ages, so let us call for a nerf there too? Oh please...
omg.. so knock them out?
It seems to be people who whine are usualy rouges that can not just stand toe to toe and kill people. OMG THEY MOVED! .. gee, I guess I go to another target. Man, he needs to be knocked out. I guess I go for another target....
stupid rouges.
And you mentioned multiple clerics, once, though seemed to expect everyone to assume that's what you meant... Right? Stack a bunch of clerics together on a team and yeah, it's gonna be pretty ridiculous. But the same can be said for almost every class. Ever faced a group of 4-5 TRs? It's not fun... 4-5 CWs? Good luck getting close enough to even tickle them.
At this point it would be stupid for PW to start making big changes like drastically nerfing AS. Wait until more people are 60, there are more organized teams that are actually competent at the game, then see how the balance is among them and adjust.
The difference here is that you don't understand that the tanking people isn't from player skill. In other MMO's when a healer can tank, its either because of a huge gear difference or he knows what he's doing. As far as I've seen, clerics just face-tank in AS. They don't even move.
It becomes more and more a problem the more clerics there are in a match. Stacking AS definitely needs to be fixed(as I see everyon here agreeing on it even).
Why bother rolling GF if a cleric can do your job better and give the entire team protection as well? It almost negates an entire other class.
-Just so you guys know, I'm not a TR. Don't have much intention to play one either. TR's can be dealt with in many other ways so I'm not just talking about how there burst isn't effective or w/e.
What seems to be the problem is that people don't realize this is BETA. Things can CHANGE, and that is what needs to happen.
Proposed Idea:
Nerf AS to 15%
Either give it a healing bonus while in AS or buff the heals themselves too. That way the clerics have to do more while in as and it becomes more involved than drop-face-tank.
It is 40% less healing for self. Not for the entire party.
Which is mainly there so we don't have the same problems with healers we have in wow..
what?
are you ****ing serious?
they would destroy clerics. you obviously don't play clerics.
get to level 60. it's a whole 'nothing ballgame. stop basing PVP off level 50-59.
they also need to remove righteousness before they do anything to nerf cleric healing.
I have been melted in a 1-2 seconds while in my AS from full health with other healing ticking on me by 2-5 enemy just DPSing me down. I have even been Starved of Divine Power by very good players catching me when low on DP. Killed by good players CCing me at the right times or Perma CCing me..
So basically gear up and learn how to play your character , rather than whining on the forums ...
Nerf AS.
Yeah, sure...
It's like this in every game. Someone can't handle a class = NERF.
Any competent PvP'r or PvP team will focus the Cleric first anyway. No amount of healing is gonna save me from getting dunked instantly when focused by the other team. The OP should rethink his strategy or maybe hang out with better PvPers.
Any game where I go unchecked = free win Any game where the other team focus me is another story. So if you are afraid of clerics and the Astral Shield it seems like its only the OP with that problem.
Wow I never new my Passive was only for me!? OMGZ THX FOR THE INFO
Every game I play, they usually cap whatever node the Cleric isn't on.
When you hit 60 come back here and ask again if you still think it's "game breaking"
My 60 CW has absolutely no problem taking out clerics. I am not saying they are easy. You just need to know how each class functions in order to beat it. In fact, a good GF can last a lot longer. Are they breaking the game too?
In any case, PvP in this game is a complete joke. For many that participate, it's just a way to power level, power gear up, doing dailies, all while standing at the spawn.