I think the issue here is what people perceive as tanking. Tanking is just another form of control, like what the CW does, just in a different manner. Instead of locking down enemies, they instead redirects enemies attention. GWF for single high priority targets, GWF for lower priority groups.
still, it's a mix of redundancy and uselessness. What other roles could these classes fill ?
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
It might not be so bad if boss rooms didn't end up looking like a great big pair of polka dot shorts at all times with all the bloody red circles going on, especially when that includes a dozen stacked up around the boss.
They put WAAAAAAAY too much emphasis on dodging both circles and melee attacks- I mean, the bosses mostly one shot me even with the moves that don't have a red circle- and when you add a dozen adds it just becomes chaos.
Lower melee boss damage, decrease red circles especially boss or enemy central ones, decrease the number of adds that knock you down and spam stuns because a single screw up meaning you get hit by 6 stuns in a row, 100% health to nothing is just horrible horrible mechanics.
Oh- and make tank threat generation a thing- you know what tanks would kill for? One of those abilities that you can put on an ally, and the threat that ally generates goes to you- ya, that'd be beautiful, put that on the cleric and BAM, instant threat forever, since DCs somehow have the ability to out threat just by healing my rogue pummelling that monster's face.
You know what's worse though?
Archery ranger, scourge warlock- two more strikers, all but confirmed to be the next two classes... ranged single target, and ranged aoe damage- there goes the roles of rogues and GWF to two classes that will have WAAAAAAAY more survivability since they don't have to stick to bosses, and more attack upkeep since they can keep going, rather than running out every second attack due to another aoe.
I swear, it's a miracle when I can get off a single duellist flurry between aoe spam. I mean- gone are the days of tank and spank, and I guess good job at that- but chaos should not be the replacement.
It might not be so bad if boss rooms didn't end up looking like a great big pair of polka dot shorts at all times with all the bloody red circles going on, especially when that includes a dozen stacked up around the boss.
They put WAAAAAAAY too much emphasis on dodging both circles and melee attacks- I mean, the bosses mostly one shot me even with the moves that don't have a red circle- and when you add a dozen adds it just becomes chaos.
Lower melee boss damage, decrease red circles especially boss or enemy central ones, decrease the number of adds that knock you down and spam stuns because a single screw up meaning you get hit by 6 stuns in a row, 100% health to nothing is just horrible horrible mechanics.
Oh- and make tank threat generation a thing- you know what tanks would kill for? One of those abilities that you can put on an ally, and the threat that ally generates goes to you- ya, that'd be beautiful, put that on the cleric and BAM, instant threat forever, since DCs somehow have the ability to out threat just by healing my rogue pummelling that monster's face.
You know what's worse though?
Archery ranger, scourge warlock- two more strikers, all but confirmed to be the next two classes... ranged single target, and ranged aoe damage- there goes the roles of rogues and GWF to two classes that will have WAAAAAAAY more survivability since they don't have to stick to bosses, and more attack upkeep since they can keep going, rather than running out every second attack due to another aoe.
I swear, it's a miracle when I can get off a single duellist flurry between aoe spam. I mean- gone are the days of tank and spank, and I guess good job at that- but chaos should not be the replacement.
I dunno about you, but a good portion of AoEs are player directed anyway, and we do not yet know what their shift mechanic is. Also, I'm just going to assume every enemy read this comic. Sooner or later they'll also figure out how to knock players off cliffs too, then we'll see some fun (or whining)..
EDIT: on hindsight that's probably the best way to deal with double astral shields and players knocking mobs cliffs...
GF is a redundant class even when built full on DPS. Here's why:
- It doesnt outclass a rogue in single-target damage.
- Its AOE damage, while very high, is meaningless since most of the time you can just throw adds off ledges. Yes, GFs can dominate the "most damage dealt" ranking during the run up to the boss, but why does it matter? Getting to the boss is never a problem, no matter what group composition you run.
- During boss fights, even when throwing stuff off ledges is not an option, GF still comes off as useless since they cant take aggro away from a cleric. If someone wants to argue with that please post a video of a GF taking away threat from a cleric during Hrirmir elite fight for more than a few mere seconds.
- They cant "tank" the actual bosses no matter what, since most bosses use AOE spells as their main means of dealing damage.
Guardian Fighter is supposed to be the "shield" of its group, currently however it is a broken shield since you cant really protect anyone as a GF.
Again, the problem is that you're thinking in terms of protection, instead of control. And the GWF would be a lot better once they fix unstoppable actually breaking out of controls..
Archer Ranger would be a nice class but I suspect it's hard to implement quarry mechanic that the 4'th ed Ranger uses (instead of favored enemy like it used to be).
Neverwinter Online Open Beta is an ongoing success
Archer Ranger would be a nice class but I suspect it's hard to implement quarry mechanic that the 4'th ed Ranger uses (instead of favored enemy like it used to be).
I assume it'd function almost like how marking works for GF at the moment, except giving a damage buff against target, and damage reduction on attacks performed on you by said target.
Im just glad people still looking for GWF in groups' they bring good aoe dmg' for fast clear to bosses, decent single target- I really hope they do something for us :l GF & GWF :'l or atleast doing something to the other classes
Kind of a catch-22 though. They don't reply because the forums are hostile, and the forums are hostile because they don't reply...
And honestly, if you can't deal with a bunch of nerds raging at you, getting into the MMO industry was an EXCEPTIONALLY bad move.
there no point replying to these nerd rages because they are to busy raging (nerd rages that is) and you end up wasting your breath because another will nerd rage you... hence look at all the forums posts .you are damned if you do and damned if you dont..
Even if they fix the threat and dps of the GF, it doesn't make them any less redundant than they are. Unfortunately, the way the game and the boss encounters are designed simply make the GF unnecessary. I hear some posters talking about their role being that of control...I am sorry, that is the job of a CW.
Anyone who has leveled a GF and done instances has had the same question :"What is it I am supposed to do?". There simply isn't anything there for the GF to do. I am sure some will say, I am doing just fine playing as a GF. And it is probably true, some people are playing with friends and have formed guilds based on that "holy" tank-dps-healer trinity. They are probably not aware that they can clear content much faster and much more efficiently if they just remove the GF from the group and replace him with a cleric, or that the friendship is strong and carrying their ailing GF through content is something they love to do. I admit, GFs had their uses as long as their tier set was bugged :-), but now, really you can just skip them.
There is still hope though for the GWF, I think it can be fixed by buffing damage here and there and fixing some of the powers.
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myxlplykMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2013
I think part of the problem is not in the game design, but in the adherence people have to the "holy trinity". Why not design a game where most people can play a more active role in damage and other more "fun" roles than tanking?
People had a role to play in a team, the rewards were reaped and shared, as a team. It's ALL about DPS in the current crop of games, and ripping through content over and over. Tanks used to pull a dungeon with a degree of skill. Being a good tank was not the same as being a good puller.
Yes I'm old school and cut my teeth on EQ, but I miss sand box games, I even miss camping a mob in a dungeon. Having said that with the way people play games now camps just could not work anymore.
I wanna see the patch when they add invisible walls at cliffs and that big black hole just does what it is intended to do = gather the enemy's and drop them on a single location, instead of all dead, all on clerics head GG x-D
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
gamerzaeonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
I thought a GWF was CC
GF was like a Blocker to absorb the insane dmg from thing while the others wail on it
Just my thought but I'm finding mid level GF > mid level CW as far as pot consumption goes
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powereddjinnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I reached level 60 on my GWF, and here are a few observations:
A) I hardly ever top the chart in actual DPS done, but I usually beat any other GWF on the team and occasionally beat a rogue that obviously has no idea what they're doing. I am obviously not the best GWF, but seriously I've been teamed with guys that have 3-6 pieces of purple gear and I'm in blues and greens with a level 52 sword I bought with seals. I should not be out DPS'ing these guys. Especially since I'm a destroyer build.
CW can either be your best friend or your worst nightmare. If they work with the GWF you can top the damage charts, if they work against you my advice is to walk behind the party and do nothing. Mainly because it doesn't matter if you fight or not, since all the add's will be blown away from you every few seconds. Slam = useless when the mage is constantly doing knockback and I lose all the add's aggro during the time they're not being hit by me. This means the cleric is probably dead now. Congrats, CW, congrats. Way to troll the GWF and Cleric at the same time.
C) The DPS chart doesn't matter in the slightest. You can say 'The GWF does crappy damage' but if you aren't comparing your weapon and gear to the gear and weapons of the people beating you, you don't know what the problem is. The sheer amount of people I see using Sure Strike on a GWF tells me a lot about the people playing GWF. To date, I have not been out DPSed by a GWF that uses Sure Strike. Ever.
D) The above are not meant to say that I think the GWF is perfect or fine, it has some issues. Namely that the Sentinel build relies on marks that don't work, and the Destroyer relies on buff/debuff stacks that don't work consistently either. This leaves the Instigator tree as probably the easiest and best AoE DPS tree that works consistently. Every other tree the GWF has works ok, they just don't work consistently enough for you to do your thing without the rest of your group helping you out a little. Hell, the Marks do virtually nothing for a sentinel. You're supposed to get aggro, but your marks disappear when you get hit? What?
So yes, you can hide the downsides of GWF with a good group that works with you. If you're in a pug situation you will either do great or be completely 100% useless. Given that there are plenty of ways to cheese the instances that rely on other classes then yes people will take a cheese class over a class that plays the game as 'intended'.
If it is 'intended' to cheese the instance by using two CW to just knock everything off a ledge, then pray tell what is the GWF role? AoE damage? AoE damage to what? A single-target boss fight that a rogue will do better? GWF is a role that doesn't exist. The tank role doesn't exist, and the AoE damage role doesn't exist. Grats Cryptic, you successfully designed two superfluous character classes to the content you designed.
This is only going to get worse once Rangers come out. You will never see a GWF again, and if you do you will point and laugh at the dumb kid.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Control Wizard, Rogue, Cleric. When is Cryptic going to add more classes in game?
(And yes my post is deliberate, GWF and GF are absolutely garbage in higher levels, they server ZERO purpose and are actually a complete detriment to the group)
Fix what everything is perfect with the game. If the issues were not fixed after closed beta then they were meant to be as is. Why fix something that has no problems your just going to find something else to complain about.
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murgin1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
still, it's a mix of redundancy and uselessness. What other roles could these classes fill ?
They put WAAAAAAAY too much emphasis on dodging both circles and melee attacks- I mean, the bosses mostly one shot me even with the moves that don't have a red circle- and when you add a dozen adds it just becomes chaos.
Lower melee boss damage, decrease red circles especially boss or enemy central ones, decrease the number of adds that knock you down and spam stuns because a single screw up meaning you get hit by 6 stuns in a row, 100% health to nothing is just horrible horrible mechanics.
Oh- and make tank threat generation a thing- you know what tanks would kill for? One of those abilities that you can put on an ally, and the threat that ally generates goes to you- ya, that'd be beautiful, put that on the cleric and BAM, instant threat forever, since DCs somehow have the ability to out threat just by healing my rogue pummelling that monster's face.
You know what's worse though?
Archery ranger, scourge warlock- two more strikers, all but confirmed to be the next two classes... ranged single target, and ranged aoe damage- there goes the roles of rogues and GWF to two classes that will have WAAAAAAAY more survivability since they don't have to stick to bosses, and more attack upkeep since they can keep going, rather than running out every second attack due to another aoe.
I swear, it's a miracle when I can get off a single duellist flurry between aoe spam. I mean- gone are the days of tank and spank, and I guess good job at that- but chaos should not be the replacement.
I dunno about you, but a good portion of AoEs are player directed anyway, and we do not yet know what their shift mechanic is. Also, I'm just going to assume every enemy read this comic. Sooner or later they'll also figure out how to knock players off cliffs too, then we'll see some fun (or whining)..
EDIT: on hindsight that's probably the best way to deal with double astral shields and players knocking mobs cliffs...
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
- It doesnt outclass a rogue in single-target damage.
- Its AOE damage, while very high, is meaningless since most of the time you can just throw adds off ledges. Yes, GFs can dominate the "most damage dealt" ranking during the run up to the boss, but why does it matter? Getting to the boss is never a problem, no matter what group composition you run.
- During boss fights, even when throwing stuff off ledges is not an option, GF still comes off as useless since they cant take aggro away from a cleric. If someone wants to argue with that please post a video of a GF taking away threat from a cleric during Hrirmir elite fight for more than a few mere seconds.
- They cant "tank" the actual bosses no matter what, since most bosses use AOE spells as their main means of dealing damage.
Guardian Fighter is supposed to be the "shield" of its group, currently however it is a broken shield since you cant really protect anyone as a GF.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
Never said they can. Just saying that they aren't redundant IF WORKING RIGHT (which they aren't).
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
This is what will kill the game. Not the gameplay, not the mechanics, not the developers. It's the trash players that are on the internet now a days.
Would Be Cool
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
Anyone who has leveled a GF and done instances has had the same question :"What is it I am supposed to do?". There simply isn't anything there for the GF to do. I am sure some will say, I am doing just fine playing as a GF. And it is probably true, some people are playing with friends and have formed guilds based on that "holy" tank-dps-healer trinity. They are probably not aware that they can clear content much faster and much more efficiently if they just remove the GF from the group and replace him with a cleric, or that the friendship is strong and carrying their ailing GF through content is something they love to do. I admit, GFs had their uses as long as their tier set was bugged :-), but now, really you can just skip them.
There is still hope though for the GWF, I think it can be fixed by buffing damage here and there and fixing some of the powers.
People had a role to play in a team, the rewards were reaped and shared, as a team. It's ALL about DPS in the current crop of games, and ripping through content over and over. Tanks used to pull a dungeon with a degree of skill. Being a good tank was not the same as being a good puller.
Yes I'm old school and cut my teeth on EQ, but I miss sand box games, I even miss camping a mob in a dungeon. Having said that with the way people play games now camps just could not work anymore.
GF was like a Blocker to absorb the insane dmg from thing while the others wail on it
Just my thought but I'm finding mid level GF > mid level CW as far as pot consumption goes
Fanboi
Whiner
:P
What Class Are You?
A) I hardly ever top the chart in actual DPS done, but I usually beat any other GWF on the team and occasionally beat a rogue that obviously has no idea what they're doing. I am obviously not the best GWF, but seriously I've been teamed with guys that have 3-6 pieces of purple gear and I'm in blues and greens with a level 52 sword I bought with seals. I should not be out DPS'ing these guys. Especially since I'm a destroyer build.
C) The DPS chart doesn't matter in the slightest. You can say 'The GWF does crappy damage' but if you aren't comparing your weapon and gear to the gear and weapons of the people beating you, you don't know what the problem is. The sheer amount of people I see using Sure Strike on a GWF tells me a lot about the people playing GWF. To date, I have not been out DPSed by a GWF that uses Sure Strike. Ever.
D) The above are not meant to say that I think the GWF is perfect or fine, it has some issues. Namely that the Sentinel build relies on marks that don't work, and the Destroyer relies on buff/debuff stacks that don't work consistently either. This leaves the Instigator tree as probably the easiest and best AoE DPS tree that works consistently. Every other tree the GWF has works ok, they just don't work consistently enough for you to do your thing without the rest of your group helping you out a little. Hell, the Marks do virtually nothing for a sentinel. You're supposed to get aggro, but your marks disappear when you get hit? What?
So yes, you can hide the downsides of GWF with a good group that works with you. If you're in a pug situation you will either do great or be completely 100% useless. Given that there are plenty of ways to cheese the instances that rely on other classes then yes people will take a cheese class over a class that plays the game as 'intended'.
If it is 'intended' to cheese the instance by using two CW to just knock everything off a ledge, then pray tell what is the GWF role? AoE damage? AoE damage to what? A single-target boss fight that a rogue will do better? GWF is a role that doesn't exist. The tank role doesn't exist, and the AoE damage role doesn't exist. Grats Cryptic, you successfully designed two superfluous character classes to the content you designed.
This is only going to get worse once Rangers come out. You will never see a GWF again, and if you do you will point and laugh at the dumb kid.
GF and GWF are junk
Aaaaaagreed. Not even arguable at this point.
Agreed. If they can't even fix up their original classes first, what stops the next class from being another disaster?
Range DPS > melee dps