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Please Understand This Regarding Guardian Fighters.
kaasdoek
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Frist, even if Cryptic manages to fix aggro. i would still never let a Guardian Fighter join my team. The reason; they slows down the clearing time. Atm i run a fixed group of 2 CWs and 2 Rogues and one skilled Cleric. Pop Astral Shield and do your Donky Kong dodges inside the circle while casting Crowd Control. Meanwhile, Rogues bursting down target in a matter of seconds or minutes if it is a boss. Astral Shield makes everyone a tank basically
The fundamental problem is the way bosses are designed. You can dodge ALL their attacks. Unlike other MMO games where a boss auto attacks a target for large amount of damage and throws tactical abilities on the side, this game is all about dodge and add management. It is a sacrifice Cryptic has made for this combat system (Yes Tera has it but imo, even Tetris gives a bigger Adrenaline rush than Tera's combat).
Think about it from a game designer's point of view. You would like a full instant action MMO game, where battles are not boring or scripted and demand from the player to have split second reactions. So what do you do? Make encounters with alot of AOE and Cleave abilities. But that is not enough, so let's add pack of monster every 20 seconds. While this sounds no different from other MMO games. (WoW's Nax Gluth encounter for example; Forces the raid to kite and deal with adds and aoe damage) it does PLAY different than other MMO games due the nature of the combat system. And this difference of play style impacts the healer role the most. There is no simple targetting system, everything has to be done fast and in the heat of the moment. So it only make sense that the Cryptic team designs Astral Shield. An ability that not only heals but mitigates a significant amount of damage. This ability reliefs a lot of stress from the healer, because it shifts the survival responsibilities to the other players. it is their job now to manage stand in the circle and get healed.
So with that said. What can be done? Changing/nerfing Astral Shield will make this game different and maybe harder. I said it in an other topic, but the end game PvE is designed around 3 things. Repel mechanics, Arcane singualrity and Astral shield. So i don't see this happening. Changing the Guardian Fighter is probably the only way to go. But fixing threat ? I don't think that will solve anything regarding groups wanting a Guardian Fighter in team.
It is a long post, but food for thought. I am not a Guardian Fighter my self, but i do feel bad declining to invite them in my parties. And i think this should be fixed and prioritized as well. There is NO POINT releasing new content untill this issue is settled.
The fundamental problem is the way bosses are designed. You can dodge ALL their attacks. Unlike other MMO games where a boss auto attacks a target for large amount of damage and throws tactical abilities on the side, this game is all about dodge and add management. It is a sacrifice Cryptic has made for this combat system (Yes Tera has it but imo, even Tetris gives a bigger Adrenaline rush than Tera's combat).
Think about it from a game designer's point of view. You would like a full instant action MMO game, where battles are not boring or scripted and demand from the player to have split second reactions. So what do you do? Make encounters with alot of AOE and Cleave abilities. But that is not enough, so let's add pack of monster every 20 seconds. While this sounds no different from other MMO games. (WoW's Nax Gluth encounter for example; Forces the raid to kite and deal with adds and aoe damage) it does PLAY different than other MMO games due the nature of the combat system. And this difference of play style impacts the healer role the most. There is no simple targetting system, everything has to be done fast and in the heat of the moment. So it only make sense that the Cryptic team designs Astral Shield. An ability that not only heals but mitigates a significant amount of damage. This ability reliefs a lot of stress from the healer, because it shifts the survival responsibilities to the other players. it is their job now to manage stand in the circle and get healed.
So with that said. What can be done? Changing/nerfing Astral Shield will make this game different and maybe harder. I said it in an other topic, but the end game PvE is designed around 3 things. Repel mechanics, Arcane singualrity and Astral shield. So i don't see this happening. Changing the Guardian Fighter is probably the only way to go. But fixing threat ? I don't think that will solve anything regarding groups wanting a Guardian Fighter in team.
It is a long post, but food for thought. I am not a Guardian Fighter my self, but i do feel bad declining to invite them in my parties. And i think this should be fixed and prioritized as well. There is NO POINT releasing new content untill this issue is settled.
Post edited by kaasdoek on
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Every class has a lower DPS for more control/heal/survavibility/etc option. The tank tree for GF would more or less be the control/survivability tree, but the DPS tree well, still does DPS.
Oh wait, isn't the GF's damage in DPS tree already competitive notwithstanding those bugged armors?
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
So if they nerf astral shield and fix threat, GF's become relevant....
I honestly hate AS on my priest, I use it, because to not is just silly. But it needs to be fixed. Threat could definitely use some tweaking but I don't like the idea of all the mobs just trying to kill the tank. The feel of each mob attacking different people in a group is appealing to me!
Certainly is thought provoking and something that the Devs should be well aware of.
It is more than just that. Honnestly, i don't think the tank class fits in any way with this combat system. As i said in my opening. Usually...In a MMO, monster A autoattacks for huge amount of damage. Tank has to grab the attention to avoid squishies being one shotted. But in this game. Monster hit hard, but they do it in a different way. They have slow animations and charges AOE/abilities. With the dodge system implemented, it means it invokes a reactive game style where players get the opportunity to prevent being hit . So far most people are clearing bosses with rogues on the boss and i ask you, how will threat fixing will change this situation
I do not know what you mean by new content.
But classes (= RPG and gameplay options) lack severely.
Besides, creating new content and fixing classes is probably done by different teams. One team can not replace the other.
I mean that it will be unfair to release a new dungeon when there is one class being totally ignored.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
I think you are spot on about combat. This quote should be required reading for every new player, trying to decide if this game is for them or not. If you're a 'hardcore' gamer, who loves a challenge and you have 'split second reactions' then this game is for you!
If, on the other hand, you're an 'average' sort of gamer who just wants to play for fun, then I think you're going to find the game incredibly difficult and frustrating (especially if you play solo).
As for the Guardian Fighter (yes I play one, or I try to) maybe we should become the solo class. Because it seems we don't really have much choice in the matter, nobody wants to play with us. So increase our defense and give us healing abilities so we don't need to rely on groups. That's all I can suggest.
You mean split-30-second reaction, right? Those red circles stay on the ground forever, only reason to not dodge them is unwillingness and lag. Granted, there's enough of that going around.
30 seconds is a bit exaggerating
I like how the GWF was completely ignored from the count.
I've experienced a number of cases in which I'll be fighting a mob, then the red circle goes down ... I stop fighting to leave the circle, but it feels like my character "freezes" in place for a couple seconds after I stop fighting ... no sign of control mechanisms, etc., so I assume it's some sort of "left click lag" for lack of a better term.
It's lethal
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
That is incredibly misleading, no offense.
I consider myself a fairly "hardcore gamer that loves a challenge", but it's rare for me to find that in this game. To be fair, MMO's aren't really my favorite type of game, but I much prefer "combat" in something like XCOM (or the original NWN- probably a better example to use) that takes some thought and strategy than mindless button mashing. "Boring" is subjective I guess, but I often find turn based games can be much more engaging and interesting than real time.
Problem solved.
Well said. Interestingly enough, within the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, designed by Gary Gygax, "i don't think the tank class fits in any way with this combat system". Dungeons & Dragons has nothing to do with Tanks. It has to do with classes, abilities, play style, problem solving, role-playing, and team-work, or team-betrayal. I think this game is more true to the original AD&D with no Tanks, and the folks that are doing the most healing and the most damage getting the most agro, end of story. That means smarter monsters and a more challenging game. The whole idea of Tanks and Taunting is stupid, imo, unless you are talking about an animal intelligence creature, and is contrary to the basic design and challenge of Dungeons & Dragons by Gary Gygax.
As Gygax implies in the Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D, any monster with half a brain will immediately go after any character casting any spell, because spellcasters are the most powerful, most dangerous, and most feared of all creatures. This understanding would trump any idiotic 'taunt' ability ("No, attack me, attack me, the fat guy in the plate armor you cannot hurt, do not attack the squishy skinny old man who is actually doing all the damage or the wispy little Cleric who is doing all the healing! Bang your head against my meat shield!"). As I said above, any Taunt ability, to me, should only be effective against Animal intelligence creatures.
I like this game with broken Tanking. I love the combat system. Want to survive a boss fight? Stay out of the giant red circles on the ground--MMORPG 101. Healing is challenging, playing your class properly is challenging, and Tanking can go the way of the Dodo bird.
That would make sense, so why it wasn't done from the beginning is beyond me. I wonder, however, just how suitable D&D rules are for a MMO. I gotta figure that violence is going to be done somewhere -- whether to the D&D rules, or to the "class balance" of a MMO, or both, I'm not sure. Regardless, I enjoy most of the game, but this situation is beginning to make even DPSing less enjoyable, when tanks can't hold aggro & DCs don't have AS to hide behind.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
If you think about it. And i have played a fair amount of MMO's . Tanks are a stationary objects that are meant to soak damage and position an enemy. That said, why would you give a dodge mechanic to a tank? He is there to soak up the damage for the team. As for the other point. A classic example is Onyxia's Flamebreath (or any dragon in general MMO land). Tanks can reposition her to prevent the raid getting hit by it. But, in this game, a monster/boss do as he/she pleases. It is SO hard to control the position of an encounter in this game. As soon as they engage you, they channel AOE and abilities that are meant to be dodged.
I feel my game with GF is over now when im lvl 60 and next dungeon i need to do is mad dragon. Thats where the game goes harder, meaning its not easily done with PUG(LFG tool). Nobody wants GF into hes premade group and nobody wants GF into hes guild, as they have to carry him over.
And without the Stalwart set, our DPS is complete garbage.
If you run without a defender, you'll need more control.
Things that can improve the GF:
1. Fix the reinforce ability to properly soak damage of those around you (there's a thread about this in the combat section)
2. Fix the enforced threat mark cap (Caps at 5 and doesn't have a correct priority)
3. Add a ToT (Threat over time) when a mark is placed by any fighter skill
4. Nerf AS, but ONLY if you fix the boss spawns and the reinforce ability (This one is tricky)
Then a guardian fighter might be wanted when you are the "cheerleader" spec, Into the Fray and the Reinforce abilities to protect/buff the party.
Currently the DPS specs are fine imo, they do decent sustained damage, but are extremely gear dependent (which admittedly isn't that hard to find). I run with the timeless set (Adds crit) instead of the power set, DPS is much more variable, but it keeps up nicely.
Without counting the exploit a good number of guards took advantage of (and personally should be banned) the Stalwart set sucks. I picked up a helm early this morning and tested the set out after buying the other pieces for literally almost nothing off of the AH. In all honesty I could hardly tell a difference numbers wise and I am being 100% honest.
Just checking, what spec are you? I would assume it would work a lot better for conqueror spec because they have a 2x power multiplier..
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
Or, if we stick to thte other way mentioned, te adnd no real tank needed, then transform gf to be like/or a paladin (maybe even a death knigt) with auras, party buffs and self heal.
Btw, imho in pvp, at least low lvl(16-20) gf was quite good. I could keep up the attention of 2 or 3 ppl (more if i had a cleric behind my back) so they were busy in trying to kill me, so the others from team could more easily occupy the other points. ANd I was just going tho the 'hotspots' every time, soaking up dmg(even thought im trying to bulid a dps, or a hybrid), was good even against rogues and cw too. Althought on lvl60 could be different. Also i have a tr as main, and in pvp, the real hard nut is a gf. (Although Id like to respec her from saboteur to executioner.)
I think a GF would be nice if you ran into a boss that does an "At feet AoE". You really don't want the DPS-tanks to dodge out and have the boss start running all over. I'm especially thinking a boss that does similar 'red circle' mechanics as the final quest in Mount Hotenow...the boss does an 'at feet aoe' but then also casts a 'random point'-sort-of-buck shot-AoE that sends you into Prone if you get hit by it.
The issue with GF isn't so much Threat but how we keep it. I see stuff like the Guard-stance Stab 'Provokes' the enemy. That sounds a lot like WoW's 'Sunder/Devastate'. But you can't stay in Guard-stance permanently and so Threat isn't reliably maintained.
I see some people are complaining about the DPS (I think that's lawlz-worthy as there's no DPS Meter; just Damage Output). So maybe if the GF's ramped up damaged faster than they do now...maybe that would work? On bosses I usually Guard-stance Shield Slam up to about 40k before it drops back to ~470. But it takes about 1 minute (maybe 45sec?) to reach the 40k.
-This is with lvl 52-ish gear as I just hit 60 yesterday and just purchased the Glory-vendor chest.
*I apologize for not using the correct ability names. I don't know them off the top and can't check in-game atm :P
They can't hold agro except on one target very well and even that is iffy.
They suck at damage when not exploiting.
They aren't really needed to soak damage.
The game mechanics being what they are is just a bunch of bosses doing wind up attacks and tons of adds. Only the adds do auto attacks and much of that is avoidable as well. I've solo'd bosses from more than half health on my own several times in PUG groups because the rest of the group dies. Strangely enough, the vast majority of the player base has quite a bit of difficulty with the current game play mechanics. Those like me, that played other similar games that were harder like TSW, find this game pretty much cake.
Why is this game cake compared to TSW? Counters. There aren't any needed in this game and there aren't any real counter powers. Everything is either a heal, damage, or control ability. There is not a whole lot of utility because it's not required. Besides dragon bosses and their roar that hits everyone locking out their powers for a few seconds, most bosses have nothing like that.
What can make the combat system more engaging? Auto attacks for bosses as noted. Allow GF's to hold agro better as well as let them have a dodge mechanic as well. They need to both Block and Roll (hehehe). Put in COUNTERS that are required. It doesn't need to be something scripted but it can be.
Threat is fun. It amplifies damage, etc. You know what works too? Actual freaking damage.
Still new player here, but seen this in plenty of other places. Threat-locks are boring, and only useful in a subset of content. DPS is generically useful. GF should be building for DPS first.
Anyway back to the topic, i got one GF with 11k gs... and the mechanics behind the GF is just bad. He should be able to tank much better overall, the block mechanic needs rework. I think the block should last longer and add a lot of threat, however because the block will break and it should (othervice everyone would just block 24/7).They could remove his (TAB) mark and add a sidestep-move or something like that. I went with the dpspath and it works great vs trash and such, but during bossfights i rather pick my CW or TR/Cleric and my main issue is as above it's just too many adds.
Why would you want a GF to build for dps? Unless they are exploiting with the current insane damage exploit, they don't do HAMSTER for damage even maxed out for it.