GWF deep gash

dhuriell

Hi, someone can tell if the deep gash feat is useful?

THX

spacejew

Maybe. Probably not enough, it's only 15% of your power and it takes five seconds to apply it. Ergo if your power is 1000 it will do 150 damage strung out over five seconds. I tend to think that there are far, far better options in the destroyers tree.

That being said, I'm curious if the armor debuffs do anything for Deep Gashes damage. I seriously doubt it though, it's probably just a flat 15% no matter what.

extinction777

spacejew wrote: »

Maybe. Probably not enough, it's only 15% of your power and it takes five seconds to apply it. Ergo if your power is 1000 it will do 150 damage strung out over five seconds. I tend to think that there are far, far better options in the destroyers tree.

That being said, I'm curious if the armor debuffs do anything for Deep Gashes damage. I seriously doubt it though, it's probably just a flat 15% no matter what.

End game enemies have a tun of hps. Deep gash is very good when you have multiple targets and they have lots of hps which is the case in almost all dungeons especially tier 2 onwards.

spacejew

Bleeds that are found in the feat tree of a class are often, almost without fail, a pit trap in the feats tree. I'd say 15% of your power over five seconds qualifies when you get a flat 10% increase to your encounters damage off WMS instead. It just scales better, considering that Deep Gash scales almost not at all. I'm not saying that's always the better choice, but it looks like it here. If the bleed was 15% of your attack that might be different, but basing it directly on the power stat itself makes it weak in my book.

Just my opinion though. If you rely on several different DoT's than I can see Deep Gash complementing that, and at a glance I can see someone using it for, say, an initiator which I know Extinction likes from his Initiator build thread ^_-

All of this is moot if you aren't going up the Destroyer tree. Deep Gash is easily available low on the Destroyer tree if you're going for primarily a Sentinel or Initator build, but even then to be honest Great Weapon Focus is probably a better option if you wanted or needed to choose.

vaelos

I don't think it's wise to use encounters for dealing damage. In dungeons I run Come and Get It, Daring Shout, and Roar. It keeps me in Unstoppable as much as possible. Your damage comes from at-wills on a GWF.

Thus the points in Staying Power are a waste IMO. If you're going to take 5 out of Destroyer, put them in Powerful Challenge after Student of the Sword.

spacejew

Yeah, I agree with you Vaelos. The issue is if you're trying to go all the way down Destroyer for the cap stone ability.

The only other options after Great Weapon Focus are the bleed, the encounter damage buff, or ArP that scales off Recovery. Of those options, the Encounter Damage Buff probably gives the most bang for your buck, even if it's only buffing Roar or Not So Fast.

If you aren't going all the way down Destroyer, it's moot.

vaelos

Oh and to answer the OP. I think deep gash is useful. The DoT probably overwrites constantly, but the first tick of it is instantaneous. It's 6 ticks over 5 seconds, first tick comes out immediately. So that is still some nice bonus damage.

From what it looks like, when it overwrites, you get that first tick again right away, so it can come out as faster than 1 per sec I think. I would have to get a good parser going to confirm this though.

spacejew

So it's 2.5% of power per second, or you could say it does 2.5% of your power as bonus damage on a crit. Sadly, it's not a flat 2.5% of damage delt added to the crit or even 2.5% of your attack per crit, which is why I say it's not a good buy for five of your Paragon Feat points. It's just cost/benefit of what else you can buy for those five feat points. If you're just dipping into Destroyer for the bleed fine, but it's just so negligible.

Honestly, how much does one tick of your bleed do? At 10,000 power you would do 1500 damage over five seconds. That breaks down to 250 damage per tick. On an attack that crits for 1500 damage, or an attack that crits for 10,000 damage, it will still only add 250.

I just have a hard time justifying that kind of an increase for 5 feats.

vaelos

Doing some quick parsing just spamming WMS on 3 target dummies, it adds about 8% to my DPS and procs an average of 1.38 times per second with 26 STR, 4,146 power and 34% crit chance + weapon master stacking 3/3.

Also interesting to note, Destroyer and Steel Blitz gave very similar results against the dummies, both 3/3.

I just did about a minute and a half each and I did not activate unstoppable.

ataranes

spacejew wrote: »

So it's 2.5% of power per second, or you could say it does 2.5% of your power as bonus damage on a crit. Sadly, it's not a flat 2.5% of damage delt added to the crit or even 2.5% of your attack per crit, which is why I say it's not a good buy for five of your Paragon Feat points. It's just cost/benefit of what else you can buy for those five feat points. If you're just dipping into Destroyer for the bleed fine, but it's just so negligible.

Honestly, how much does one tick of your bleed do? At 10,000 power you would do 1500 damage over five seconds. That breaks down to 250 damage per tick. On an attack that crits for 1500 damage, or an attack that crits for 10,000 damage, it will still only add 250.

I just have a hard time justifying that kind of an increase for 5 feats.

As a single target damage skill it's probably negligible. However, applying the bleed through AOE probably yields a noticeable amount of damage increase on AOE fights. The nice thing is that it doesn't matter how weak of an attack it was, as long as it crits, it's 15% of power. Theoretically, you could do a 1 damage attack and still proc a 250/tick damage bleed.

ataranes

I just did a 5-minute parse in trade of blades (3 targets) with roar as my only damaging encounter. I just held down WMS used roar off cooldown and slam when it was up. My crit is only 10.2%, power is 4200 unbuffed and with no set bonus.

It still accounted for 8% of total damage

vaelos

Yeah I think with whatever gear and such (aside from needing a decent enough crit % to keep it up), due to the way the effect works, it's probably always going to be around 8%.

spacejew

That's a pretty good return in investment then, although as you said that's against 3 targets. I can't really complain about that though on an AoE class!

That does compare though, what's 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5? 7.5, which is pretty darn close to 8%. So yeah, it's still 2.5% damage per target hit. That could very well return a stupid high amount of damage if you're hitting, say, 20 targets instead of 3.

ataranes

Well, yeah that was against 3 targets. I don't know that the % of damage would change much depending on the targets. Except that a crit on an AOE ability crits all targets hit. So that might factor. Been a long day and I don't want to get into the maths, but also keep in mind, I was only using Master Strike. I wasn't working any other damaging encounter abilities into the mix. So attacks with a low damage per swing are going to inflate the % that the bleeds do since ANY crit hit procs the bleed no matter if it was 1 damage or 10000.

extinction777

ataranes wrote: »

I just did a 5-minute parse in trade of blades (3 targets) with roar as my only damaging encounter. I just held down WMS used roar off cooldown and slam when it was up. My crit is only 10.2%, power is 4200 unbuffed and with no set bonus.

It still accounted for 8% of total damage

That is really good information thank you for sharing. With under 11% crit and accounting for that much damage that is a very significant ability. That is 8% of total damage dealt, crazy good.

It would be interesting to see the dps % on my gear set up with over 6,000 power and over 50% crit with weapon master rolling. Further crit increase from instigator, not to mention the avatar set adding another 1350 power and the instigator capstone adding another 50% for an optimal over 11,000 power with over 50% crit.

Deep gash is insanely good especially as an instigator.

Thanks again for the numbers.

terhix

I find it amazing that people complained about deep gash, I'm pretty accustomed to the fact that "math is hard mkay", but to underestimate such talent is insane. I took it before 10% more damage on at-wills while leveling and consider it a must have in my Sentinel build, which should tell you enough about it.

realpureshadow

Last time i ran pirate king, deep gash was 16% of my damage with instigator build. Weapon master strike was at 27% and other abilties around 8%. So for me it really scales up there. Even with feats restoring strike usually beats flourish by 1%. Flourish has too much animation time. It kinda makes me sad that destoryer has 2 good low rank feats and instigator gets junk. This is just tier one gear, probably is better for others.

maximusfine

After parsing all of my damage in instances deep gash was only accounting for 3% of my total damage i opted out for getting another skill

snakesandcakes

ataranes wrote: »

I just did a 5-minute parse in trade of blades (3 targets) with roar as my only damaging encounter. I just held down WMS used roar off cooldown and slam when it was up. My crit is only 10.2%, power is 4200 unbuffed and with no set bonus.

It still accounted for 8% of total damage

Was that with or without GWF? Either way, it seems that the feats are nearly evenly matched when you're not making full use of encounter powers. Five minute runs on DoT build are also unreliable since the DoTs will be able to achieve almost 99% uptime; in reality, when you finish off a group of mobs in 10 seconds, you'd be lucky to get 8 or 9 seconds of bleed on them.

momaw

From a parse during an actual dungeon, not on the dummies, Deep Gash accounted for 4.5% of my total damage output. Hardly world-shaking. But then, that's 4.5% damage which is completely automatic and I never had to worry about or work for. There aren't many feats which apply so directly and seamlessly into damage output.

And yes it resets on every crit. In practical terms for a high-crits build it's not "15% of your power over 5 seconds" it's "3% of your Power as DPS on each target within reach".

(For trivia sake, Steel Blitz accounted for almost exactly twice as much damage as Deep Gash did)

kwazi

I don't really like it. I just opted to put those points elsewhere in the destroyer tree.