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The broken endgame for guardians
axer128
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Guardians seem to become obsolete once you hit the T2 dungeons.
And it's not that its a weak class, it has a ton more survivability than others, functional if somewhat weak taunts, and ok dps.
It's just that the bosses are too easy, and the trash is too hard. Simple as that. In T1s you have mega tough, fast bosses like the werewolf which gives guardians an important role.. No such bosses in T2s, They are all mega slow and relatively easier then the werewolf.
So we end up with Rogue, wizard or even GWF being the more ideal boss tank, as they deal more dps and can survive just fine, even without heals on most bosses, as the all attack mega slow and put down nice splats for you to easily dodge any attack that will deal any kind of significant damage.
Yet the trash spawns are insane in most every T2+ dungeon. 3-6 monsters every ~15 seconds, with no spawn limit.. So it would actually be better for the guardians to tank that more difficult threat - but they can't because the games threat system doesnt allow it.
And I like the challenge, but the guardian class just cannot handle those kind of numbers. It's set up to tank 1-3 monsters at a time, max, anymore cant be done if theres a cleric in the group (which is pretty much required) because clerics have constantly threat generation, while guardians only get 1 AOE taunt every 14-15 seconds, which only lasts about 3 seconds before going back on the cleric due to the dynamic threat the game has.
Suggestions to fix:
Short version: Make T2 bosses a ton harder. Make trash very slightly easier, slow the spawn, and put in a spawn cap. Increase duration of dynamic threat for guardians aoe taunt, and remove its enemy cap.
Detailed:
1.Boss Harder: Mainly they need to attack faster to make dodging every single attack on a rogue/wizard more difficult.
2.Easier trash: Being it's straight impossible to outkill spawnrates in excellent groups with full T1 sets and rank 5+ augments, yes you went very slightly overboard. Our only chance to win these are using either cheese tactics like perches/kiting.. or knockbacks into pits - KB imo are fine and seem intended given we get so many skills that do them, and pits are so commonly placed near the enemies. Kiting however doesn't seem intended given the design of the game, and should not be possible, and thus heavily discouraged by allowing us another route (killing).
At least for dungeons that feature those.. Some don't, leaving them straight impossible without perching/kiting - eg: Icespire Frozen Heart - insane spawns that regenerate and use aoe's, no pits, absolutely no way to win without perching or kiting.
Or temple of the spider, trash hits so insanely hard that it simply can't be survived long enough to kill less you double stack clerics.. So it leaves ONLY the KB option (and even that is insanely difficult due to there attack speeds, own cc abilities and charging ability). Tho actually most groups just exploit this one due to other issues i wont mention here - I don't blame them tho, i don't see this one being done legitly ever except in silly group setups that rely on Astral shield stacking (3 wizards, 2 clerics).
3. Spawn cap: While I like the challenge of being overwhelmed, the game engine just can't handle it in many cases. EG Frozen heart as I mentioned, when you get to about 30ish trolls/ice golems.. The AI breaks - 75% of them just stand still because the server cannot process that amount of enemies moving around. So yea there is no choice but to put one in if you want the game to work correctly. Something high like 15-20 would be fine tho, to maintain challenge.
4. Fix guardians aoe taunt: 3 seconds of agro on a max of 5 targets, then 12-13 of not does not make us feel at all useful. Change the dynamic threat to have it work at least 6 seconds, and perhaps increase the effects of enhanced mark so we can make it last even longer (by not getting hit by marked targets or blocking them). And remove target limit, if a wizard can toss 30+ mobs into a pit with 1 spell, we should be at least able to taunt as many (as yea guardians get KBs too, but they aren't aoe)
And it's not that its a weak class, it has a ton more survivability than others, functional if somewhat weak taunts, and ok dps.
It's just that the bosses are too easy, and the trash is too hard. Simple as that. In T1s you have mega tough, fast bosses like the werewolf which gives guardians an important role.. No such bosses in T2s, They are all mega slow and relatively easier then the werewolf.
So we end up with Rogue, wizard or even GWF being the more ideal boss tank, as they deal more dps and can survive just fine, even without heals on most bosses, as the all attack mega slow and put down nice splats for you to easily dodge any attack that will deal any kind of significant damage.
Yet the trash spawns are insane in most every T2+ dungeon. 3-6 monsters every ~15 seconds, with no spawn limit.. So it would actually be better for the guardians to tank that more difficult threat - but they can't because the games threat system doesnt allow it.
And I like the challenge, but the guardian class just cannot handle those kind of numbers. It's set up to tank 1-3 monsters at a time, max, anymore cant be done if theres a cleric in the group (which is pretty much required) because clerics have constantly threat generation, while guardians only get 1 AOE taunt every 14-15 seconds, which only lasts about 3 seconds before going back on the cleric due to the dynamic threat the game has.
Suggestions to fix:
Short version: Make T2 bosses a ton harder. Make trash very slightly easier, slow the spawn, and put in a spawn cap. Increase duration of dynamic threat for guardians aoe taunt, and remove its enemy cap.
Detailed:
1.Boss Harder: Mainly they need to attack faster to make dodging every single attack on a rogue/wizard more difficult.
2.Easier trash: Being it's straight impossible to outkill spawnrates in excellent groups with full T1 sets and rank 5+ augments, yes you went very slightly overboard. Our only chance to win these are using either cheese tactics like perches/kiting.. or knockbacks into pits - KB imo are fine and seem intended given we get so many skills that do them, and pits are so commonly placed near the enemies. Kiting however doesn't seem intended given the design of the game, and should not be possible, and thus heavily discouraged by allowing us another route (killing).
At least for dungeons that feature those.. Some don't, leaving them straight impossible without perching/kiting - eg: Icespire Frozen Heart - insane spawns that regenerate and use aoe's, no pits, absolutely no way to win without perching or kiting.
Or temple of the spider, trash hits so insanely hard that it simply can't be survived long enough to kill less you double stack clerics.. So it leaves ONLY the KB option (and even that is insanely difficult due to there attack speeds, own cc abilities and charging ability). Tho actually most groups just exploit this one due to other issues i wont mention here - I don't blame them tho, i don't see this one being done legitly ever except in silly group setups that rely on Astral shield stacking (3 wizards, 2 clerics).
3. Spawn cap: While I like the challenge of being overwhelmed, the game engine just can't handle it in many cases. EG Frozen heart as I mentioned, when you get to about 30ish trolls/ice golems.. The AI breaks - 75% of them just stand still because the server cannot process that amount of enemies moving around. So yea there is no choice but to put one in if you want the game to work correctly. Something high like 15-20 would be fine tho, to maintain challenge.
4. Fix guardians aoe taunt: 3 seconds of agro on a max of 5 targets, then 12-13 of not does not make us feel at all useful. Change the dynamic threat to have it work at least 6 seconds, and perhaps increase the effects of enhanced mark so we can make it last even longer (by not getting hit by marked targets or blocking them). And remove target limit, if a wizard can toss 30+ mobs into a pit with 1 spell, we should be at least able to taunt as many (as yea guardians get KBs too, but they aren't aoe)
-Group tools in dire need of improvement, please read and reply to improve our community.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Post edited by axer128 on
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are you not using your taunts and knock down abilities?
Im a guardian..I have no trouble...
If they fix 2 (make trash a little easier), 3 put a spawn cap OR reduce the spawn rate somewhat and 5 allow guardians to actually get aggro via threat generation, they should be the best at this above CW etc
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Which makes them a whole lot of nothing
When for every challenge this game has to offer, a team comp not involving a GF is better than one with GF, the class is broken / serves no purpose.
i can keep all ads on me this way for the party to kill with aoe, or quickly burn down the boss.
i communicate in real time with my cleric, so i know exactly when to use enforced threat, and when her circle is coming up and where.
dps GF.
I have to ask you though, Have you ran your guardian in T2s? Did you feel that if you were another class you would of been better?
If not, Please dont post, this is a very specific issue where we become less effective in T2s, 1-60 and T1s guardians are a fine class I agree.
And actually I can tank EVERYTHING. I can survive 30+ champions, and the boss on myself. My gear is near maxxed, I have over 90% total DR in a group, im essentially invincible until the cleric goes down.
Problem is the cleric will go down in the more difficult ones without resorting to extremely cheesy tactics and changing me from a tank to a in-effective babysitter, or poor dps. Every role I can select, another class can do far better. It's not fun.
I can certainly protect my cleric, we beat all the T2s we tried. It's not that we fail. It's that it's not fun to destroy my class role and force me to play so strangely.
Tanks should tank bosses. Thats not happening in T2s. Thats the issue. It's not something you can argue, its a fact.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
She can tank those adds with some advanced tactics sure.. But she shouldnt have to.
and I shouldn't have to play babysitter.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Our party makeup on all those last night included a very skilled GWF ive known for years.
Was GF, GWF, Clr, 2 wizards.
He was equally as useless as me in Epic Karrundar vs the 2nd boss because 30+ spike dude that each fire off 3+ AOEs that knock you down, that constantly spawn 2-4 every 15 seconds are NOT a possible thing to "wreck".
All you said is certainly possible in the majority of epics, and weve done it many times. Not so in epic caverns, frozen heart or temple of the spider. They all have far too insane spawn rates for even the best dps to keep up. Alternate tactics are forced, and thats fine, but it renders guardians relatively weaker then others. GWF too actually.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
*sigh*
Always gotta be one in every thread.....
Exactly but for some reason we have these people telling us that
We suck as players that's why you can't keep aggro off the cleric....
This is D&D this is how it's suppose to work....
Some of these excuses are starting to get old I mean the game is NOT MEANT to play like this they wouldn't make the GF obsolete at least I don't think they would..... But who knows maybe they would I mean look at GWF there no better.......
What's the point of either when you can just bring two clerics for everything.......
You are not suppose to have two clerics running shield in every T2 contrary to popular belief.......
Fix the **** already......
Don't get me wrong, I know how to tank and survive, I've soloed the last boss in heroic Idris (took 2 hours, but I did it). It's just I know when the healer dies because I actually have the aggro >_>
I constantly depend on the healer to tank most of the trash and not because I am incompetent, but because I can't hold aggro on everything and trying to turns out to be more detrimental. So most of the time I'm a baby sitter taunting temporarily, knocking down a few mobs and running around basically trying to do something, but nothing at the same time.
I feel like a beefy support that can take a few hits. I'm supposed to be a tank, but i feel like the healing aggro is intense that everything I do is pointless..
I got so mad at it, that I switched to a heal based spec and used my healing daily along with my healing per monster kill to try and gain more aggro... well it actually worked, I had more aggro ~ That is just messed up too many ways ~
Our skills are capped, my taunt can only taunt 5 people max, my Frontline push can only knock down 4 people max... woo I'm a tank of 5 people with a dungeon consisting of 20+ adds >_> Oh and my Terror impact daily can hit a straight line of people, but also with the new patch it deals absolutely no damage to any mob and no knock back if a CW has used his singularity daily, before i used it to prone enemies so that the rest could jump in and deal aoe damage without getting hit back by them. But that does not happen anymore.. I am more useless now.. I have to time it during a time that wizard is not using his daily.. so that I deal damage.To top it off I'm completely relying on the group to do all of the work of T2 instances.. that shouldn't be right.. It should be equally dependent on everyone. I honestly feel like a block of cement here.
To top it off this new Bug with GF shielding is getting quite annoying.. The animation is either working, or not working during a block. I may have the block animation working.. but in reality ill take all hits like I am standing there staring at the ground.. no blocks. Or my character is doing some weird sort of jig acting like he is try to block or dancing with his shield all while not blocking anything. Quite annoying. You are supposed to be able to decide when to block to conserve your meter, and switch between so you can keep your reduced damage debuff on the boss.. common now..
All in all I feel like my class is useless in upper T2, and I am seeing it more and more often. Dungeon groups are calling for 2 clerics to stack astral shield and tank and won't even use a GF.
Do something about this, or you might as well just label the class "useless in T2"
I function in T2s, but only as as a strange jack of all trades, master of none type deal..
I can tank 1 thing at all time, but a cleric can tank 30+ at a time.. Or if its a boss, a rogue can tank it while dealing far superior dps and probably taking less damage thanks to his dodge.
I can knockback 1 thing into a pit at a time, but a wizard can knock back 30+ at a time
I can make the group run faster for a short time to speed up runs, but a wizard can make the group run insanely faster.
I can deal general melee dps, but a rogue can deal 4 times my dps (and im a 100% dps spec guardian...)
Pretty much everything we can do, another class can do better, so it devalues us to the point no one wants a guardian in t2.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
- can tank better than guardian / provides godmode
- can aoe DPS better than guardian
- can aoe debuff mobs
- can kite better than Guardian
- can knockback mobs
- can heal
- can buff allies's damage
There are several encounters where a GF is better then a second cleric (the best example is FH).
I do agree however astral shield stacking needs to be removed from the game. (Or nerfed into oblivion I don't really care)
On the Guardian fighter issue, I would love to have the aggro fixed. I didn't make a cleric to tank, I don't want to be a tank, I would really love if it was possible for a GF to tank for me. Perhaps one fix to this is reduce the aggro from healing a little, every time I heal I get swarmed by mobs, I understand this , but when it's 30 + monsters all coming at me they can still beat a cleric down inside an astral shield. Please fix it so clerics don't have to be tanks.