in 18 yeasrs of mmo gaming i never ever asked for nerfs once.
those who do are bad at gaming. they cant adapt. i feel sorry for them.
The only MMO I've played extensively was City of Heroes (RIP ).
The only time I ever called for nerfs was after extensive testing on my own part. Toward the end of the game's life I had several of my suggestions implemented. Not because I had any more clout than anyone else. Because I looked at it rationally, and approached it from a perspective of balance, rather than just feeling like something was overpowered. The suggestions that were implemented were done because I brought something to the devs' attention that legitimately was a problem, and I proposed a fair solution.
When you feel like something is overpowered, step back and look at it from an overall balance perspective:
-Okay, Class X is really good at Thing A. If yes, that is step 1 to a legitimate problem.
-Is there something it really sucks at? If yes, there is no problem. If no, that is step 2 to legitimate problem.
-Are there other classes that are just as good at Thing A? If yes, there is no problem. If no, that is step 3 to a legitimate problem.
-Are there other things it is really good at aside from Thing A? If no, there is no problem. If yes, that is step 4 to legitimate problem.
If you can't prove any of those things, then calling for a nerf just makes you look like a whiner. If you can lay out exactly why you feel like there is a problem, and back it up with facts, then maybe you might be on to something.
It seems that this is from a PvP standpoint. MMO PvP has always been a case of Rock/Paper/Scissors. Every class, when played by equally skilled players, will do well against certain other classes, and get owned by certain other classes. That's how PvP balance works.
I don't have much experience with this particular game yet, but it has been alluded to that rogues own the clerics that are untouchable to some other classes. If Clerics also own a given class, and something in turn owns the rogue, then it sounds like it is by design and following the rock/paper/scissors template of MMO PvP.
Honestly, the plague fire/tenebrous enchant problem is amplifying most people's perception of rogues as OP when they are not. Fix this problem first and you will see a lot of other issues fall to the wayside as well.
This reminds me of the "Nerf Stalkers!" threads that would pop up in the CoH forums from time to time.
Stalker = Rogue.
Stealthy melee class with lower survivability and insane burst damage in exchange for pathetic AoE and little to no control. Could 2 shot inexperienced players with relative ease, but if the initial strike failed they had to run away or die.
Most of the complaints were coming from the newbies who hadn't worked out how to neutralize the threat the stalkers posed. Sound like what's going on here?
Most of the complaints were coming from the newbies who hadn't worked out how to neutralize the threat the stalkers posed. Sound like what's going on here?
That's it exactly. Any anecdotal 'evidence' of tanks being one-shotted by TR's is only evidence of a begruntled player.
Even stories of how TR's dominate pre-30's or even pre-60's, they're useless. Not only will the majority of PvP take place at the highest level, being upscaled to fit in a level-range will gimp you. There's just no way you can get any good idea about class balance when all the skills are skewed.
And gear matters, a lot. I haven't been PvPing long, but when I see only greens on my teammates, I know it's going to be difficult. While at the same time, I'm wearing all purple PvP gear and I definitely don't feel OP (and the scoreboards will confirm it).
It really is about skill, but you need the gear to get it effective.
This reminds me of the "Nerf Stalkers!" threads that would pop up in the CoH forums from time to time.
Stalker = Rogue.
Stealthy melee class with lower survivability and insane burst damage in exchange for pathetic AoE and little to no control. Could 2 shot inexperienced players with relative ease, but if the initial strike failed they had to run away or die.
Most of the complaints were coming from the newbies who hadn't worked out how to neutralize the threat the stalkers posed. Sound like what's going on here?
And Stalkers were OP up until the game shut down. What was your argument again?
Also, Stalkers squishy? LOL
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
who was saying rogues tank better than GF... is talking through his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>..
GF can simply stun lock u... blardy impossible to get near him... just keep getting thrown then he comes charging... thrown again...
I have no idea why ppl can say rogues are OP...when they can prolly only have a gd chance of killing 1 v1 when they are able to approach from stealth without the player actually noticing...
and even in stealth if he comes to close of gets targetted... he becomes slightly visible...
Rogues need a buff seriously at least make it such tt... when in stealth they cant be seeen at all...
regardless of proximity
Ok i recently decided to try out being a rouge, just to see what all the fuss was. Normally I'm a cleric and we clerics in PvP should not be at the top of the scoreboard (at least how the current scoring system is worked out *cough* DPS *cough*)
Rouges well naturally be at the top of the current PvP system, not for being OP or what not, but simply because the current system rewards the classes with high damage output, while ignoring the classes without high damage output. IF they were to fix the point scoring system to actually take into account each Class performing their actual roles things wont be so bad.
When you get clerics complaining bout rouges slaughtering them in PvP, you had a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> team who felt more in key with running to the different points without any strategy involved. I. E defense.(Low level PvP cleric heals are still useless and do nothing). Also stop standing still, I know we have to be still to cast but that doesnt mean you have to stay in the same place, move fire your divine powers. Move more, fire off your at wills, move again then repeat. Trust me rouges well start to get annoyed, especially with our divine daunting light.
GF's and GWF's who argue that Rouges are OP your either going to be being used as a tanking class or you should be using yourself to charge straight into a groups. Do not try going 1v1 with the rouge, seriously of course your going to loose when they can control 1v1 fights. Group up to trap them and your nice and safe. Or just learn to move, if your just contesting a point so the other team dont get anything from it. (A good team from what I've seen would have one of these just constantly contesting the other teams Control Points this is really what your two classes are for in PVP).
CW's that complain bout rouges being OP, seriously stop firing all your Control spells at once at a rouge. Fire one, if it works then launch all the others. IF it doesn't, chuck on another non Control spell then dash away and by the time you finish your three dash's, you can control the rouge.
Best way to learn to counter so called OP classes is to actually play them to see their limitations. Since fighting rouges takes a different tactic than say fighting a GF or a Cleric.
Just to also point out that those that say PvE rouges are OP, it only seems that way since they get very little aggro compared to say the cleric; so in groups it can seem they are OP. A solo rouge however, has a **** hard time later on, simply due to the constant adds in the late game bosses that actually have some strength, especially since a rouge cant deal with all of them at once like most of the other classes (though I'm not sure about a the GF never played as that one).
Wasn't aware Rogues were pure DPS, since they tank better than GF.
Just assumed they were intended to solo bosses while the rest of the team watches.
And Stalkers were OP up until the game shut down. What was your argument again?
Also, Stalkers squishy? LOL
Stalkers OP? HA!
You clearly didn't read the dozens upon dozens of threads complaining how the Stalker's gimmick was completely useless in PvE and the class was only good for ganking PvP noobs. They were described as a squishy Scrapper with pathetic AoE in exchange for burst damage that was largely useless in PvE. Their PvP gimmick consisted of having to win a fight in the first 10 seconds or get the floor wiped with them. That basically made them largely incapable of killing another melee class that was played by anyone who knew what they were doing.
I had no fear of Stalkers in PvP. They couldn't kill me before I wiped the floor with them, unless they ganged up and ASed me all at once. And I wasn't even that great of a PvPer. They were very little threat to anyone with half a clue what they were doing.
Mind/Fire Dominators and Psi/Energy Blasters were the OP PvP characters in that game. Not Stalkers, not by a long shot.
I know this isn't CoH, but some of these arguments are starting to sound really familiar.
I wouldn't say Rogues are op to that extent... But we can burst a single-target extremely fast, if dodged or missed; useless. I've faced all classes they're all op if played right which is why I like this game. CW's - A great rogue will lose to a good cw anytime imo, and there are some GFs out there that just **** on you and make you look stupid xD.
You clearly didn't read the dozens upon dozens of threads complaining how the Stalker's gimmick was completely useless in PvE and the class was only good for ganking PvP noobs. They were described as a squishy Scrapper with pathetic AoE in exchange for burst damage that was largely useless in PvE. Their PvP gimmick consisted of having to win a fight in the first 10 seconds or get the floor wiped with them. That basically made them largely incapable of killing another melee class that was played by anyone who knew what they were doing.
I had no fear of Stalkers in PvP. They couldn't kill me before I wiped the floor with them, unless they ganged up and ASed me all at once. And I wasn't even that great of a PvPer. They were very little threat to anyone with half a clue what they were doing.
Mind/Fire Dominators and Psi/Energy Blasters were the OP PvP characters in that game. Not Stalkers, not by a long shot.
I know this isn't CoH, but some of these arguments are starting to sound really familiar.
LOL
PVP was killed in CoH 4 years before it was shut down. Not only was it killed, it had it's head cut off, a chicken stuffed down its neck, the whole thing cremated and its ashes scattered to the winds. Then you had devs BS the playerbase that yes it was a "high priority and would receive regular updates"
Bad players complaining about what they couldn't use effectively is a constant. Stalkers were OP, the only reason you didn't see more of them was because the improved version of the AT was even more OP. Widows could do all that stalkers could do but better.
Lord I miss that game, but in all truth it was a mercy killing. Maybe someone will take the good parts, leave behind the dev arrogance and make a worthy successor.
Edit: And yes CoH is the perfect proof that before you worry about classes that are overperforming, you need to deal with the underpowered classes. The gap in solo performance in that game was horrendous, and the balance in the damage dealing ATs was just off the chart.
PVP was killed in CoH 4 years before it was shut down. Not only was it killed, it had it's head cut off, a chicken stuffed down its neck, the whole thing cremated and its ashes scattered to the winds. Then you had devs BS the playerbase that yes it was a "high priority and would receive regular updates"
Bad players complaining about what they couldn't use effectively is a constant. Stalkers were OP, the only reason you didn't see more of them was because the improved version of the AT was even more OP. Widows could do all that stalkers could do but better.
Lord I miss that game, but in all truth it was a mercy killing. Maybe someone will take the good parts, leave behind the dev arrogance and make a worthy successor.
Edit: And yes CoH is the perfect proof that before you worry about classes that are overperforming, you need to deal with the underpowered classes. The gap in solo performance in that game was horrendous, and the balance in the damage dealing ATs was just off the chart.
I'm gonna have to disagree. Stalkers were helpless against any AT that could stay out of melee range of them with a player smart enough to keep moving. And they were too squishy to go toe-to-toe with any AT that would actually hold still and fight them. They had ONE gimmick: A massive single target attack out of nowhere. And that gimmick only worked against players that were dumb enough to stop moving for more than a second or two at a time, and that were squishy enough for the follow up attack to kill them.
I saw more Stalkers running away from fights than anything else.
I didn't have much of a problem soloing anything. I had a Defender who specialized in soloing Giant Monsters. Most of my scrappers could solo AVs (and there were ATs much better suited to that than Scrappers). The game was actually pretty well balanced, most of the complaints about balance that I saw had more to due with player error than with an actual balance problem. If anything was overpowered and in need of a nerf, it was Brutes. And Blasters needed a buff (which they were supposed to be getting right before they announced the shutdown of the game)
My point here? CoH finally got to a point of being pretty well balanced (in PvE at least, PvP was always broken in one way or another). It took them 4 years to do it from the point of the new dev team taking over. No MMO will ever be perfectly balanced for every single player playing it. It's flat out impossible. About the best you can expect is for it to reach a point of being "close enough", and even then some enterprising player will come up with something that throws it out of whack again that never occurred to the devs as being possible to do.
Expecting a brand new MMO to get 100% of the bugs and imbalances ironed out in the beta stages is asking WAY too much. As I mentioned, I haven't been here long enough to see some of these issues first-hand, but I've been reading the forums since I arrived.
Balance issues that I believe might be legitimate problems:
-CW damage on their daily power (Ice Knife I think it is?). If that power is truly doing 30k damage to a target with full health, that should be looked at.
-DC Astral Shield stacking.
-GWF lacking any significant single target damage, and just lacking in damage overall.
So, that's 2 classes that a nerf should be considered for, and one that could use a buff.
I'm not seeing a significant problem with Rogues. High single target damage is their schtick, and they don't seem to have much else going for them.
What I would do:
-Slightly lower CW damage across the board, in exchange for improved control ability. Definitely do something about that ridiculous daily. Or perhaps give players an option to choose control OR damage, but not both. Like maybe a choice when choosing new abilities to slant them more toward control or damage potential.
-Limit how many Astral Shields can be stacked at once. Hard to kill is okay. Invincible, not so much.
-Give GWFs a boost to their damage potential. Having not played one yet, I can't say how much they need. And give them something they can do that no one is better at, which is one of the major complaints I've seen so far.
-Make GFs better at tanking than they are now, and give players a reason to want one along. But don't make them mandatory. Perhaps by giving them some kind of ability that uses their enemies' numbers against them.
I'd like to see this game end up at a balance point where any task can be completed with any mix of classes. In my opinion, a set group makeup that you MUST have to succeed is a sign of bad game design. Make it so any given class is nice to have, but not required to succeed and I'll be happy. They've got some time to figure out how to pull that off if they want.
I'm gonna have to disagree. Stalkers were helpless against any AT that could stay out of melee range of them with a player smart enough to keep moving. And they were too squishy to go toe-to-toe with any AT that would actually hold still and fight them. They had ONE gimmick: A massive single target attack out of nowhere. And that gimmick only worked against players that were dumb enough to stop moving for more than a second or two at a time, and that were squishy enough for the follow up attack to kill them.
I really don't know where you are getting this from. I have to guess it's a false impression from the fact everyone who was any good at PvP left after I13 and all that were left was people who were not very adept at playing. Especially seeing as they had ranged snipes that would crit for most a squishies hitpoints.
I know post I13 Warburg was empty enough you had people AFK farming there. Kind of sad I stuck it out while I really enjoyed that game there was a horrible set of design iterations that made it appeal to hardly anyone.
I saw more Stalkers running away from fights than anything else.
Well there is your proof they were bad players. You'd never see a good stalker
I didn't have much of a problem soloing anything. I had a Defender who specialized in soloing Giant Monsters. Most of my scrappers could solo AVs (and there were ATs much better suited to that than Scrappers). The game was actually pretty well balanced, most of the complaints about balance that I saw had more to due with player error than with an actual balance problem. If anything was overpowered and in need of a nerf, it was Brutes. And Blasters needed a buff (which they were supposed to be getting right before they announced the shutdown of the game)
::SIGH::
Yes everything there could solo, that isn't what constitutes performance. In the time a defender took to do anything other ATs could do the same tasks three or four times over. There were ample threads attesting to this.
By your own criteria of balance, how important is it to do something well that is of zero impact to the game ?
My point here? CoH finally got to a point of being pretty well balanced (in PvE at least, PvP was always broken in one way or another). It took them 4 years to do it from the point of the new dev team taking over.
The new dev team didn't balance much of anything, they just substituted their biases for the prior teams biases. I still remember Synapse giving a twitter interview about fixing energy melee. His solution completely redo energy melee into virtually new power set.
Brilliant, he managed to fix a powerset by making something that would mostly appeal to himself.
Balance issues that I believe might be legitimate problems:
-CW damage on their daily power (Ice Knife I think it is?). If that power is truly doing 30k damage to a target with full health, that should be looked at.
-DC Astral Shield stacking.
-GWF lacking any significant single target damage, and just lacking in damage overall.
So, that's 2 classes that a nerf should be considered for, and one that could use a buff.
I'm not seeing a significant problem with Rogues. High single target damage is their schtick, and they don't seem to have much else going for them.
What I would do:
-Slightly lower CW damage across the board, in exchange for improved control ability. Definitely do something about that ridiculous daily. Or perhaps give players an option to choose control OR damage, but not both. Like maybe a choice when choosing new abilities to slant them more toward control or damage potential.
-Limit how many Astral Shields can be stacked at once. Hard to kill is okay. Invincible, not so much.
-Give GWFs a boost to their damage potential. Having not played one yet, I can't say how much they need. And give them something they can do that no one is better at, which is one of the major complaints I've seen so far.
-Make GFs better at tanking than they are now, and give players a reason to want one along. But don't make them mandatory. Perhaps by giving them some kind of ability that uses their enemies' numbers against them.
I'd like to see this game end up at a balance point where any task can be completed with any mix of classes. In my opinion, a set group makeup that you MUST have to succeed is a sign of bad game design. Make it so any given class is nice to have, but not required to succeed and I'll be happy. They've got some time to figure out how to pull that off if they want.
All reasonable issues. The problem is the system is rendered deliberately opaque. My own suspicion is that this is done to allow them to make changes without informing the players and boost the sales of respec tokens.
ok good sir, rogues compared to guardian fighters and clerics, in PvP and dungeon efficiency ratios, are terrible. First of all, rogues cant out damage a good cleric. second, guardian fighters whip up on rogues with that damned block. and lastly, a rogue cant self-sustain in a dungeon. a good rogue can only really do a no-aoe mob and maybe a boss if we push it...
ok good sir, rogues compared to guardian fighters and clerics, in PvP and dungeon efficiency ratios, are terrible. First of all, rogues cant out damage a good cleric. second, guardian fighters whip up on rogues with that damned block. and lastly, a rogue cant self-sustain in a dungeon. a good rogue can only really do a no-aoe mob and maybe a boss if we push it...
You're playing with terrible rogues if a cleric is out DPSing them.
Is there any plans to put in dimishing returns for PvP stun lock? I cannot cast skills when I am fighting this class. I cannot run most of the time, sometimes I get lucky and their rotation of encounter skills missed their cooldown. Basically if the rogue makes no mistakes I cannot cast spells to keep myself alive and the other time I cannot move.
Has any of the team spoken out about dimishing returns for a minute or some time in pvp?
Yes everything there could solo, that isn't what constitutes performance. In the time a defender took to do anything other ATs could do the same tasks three or four times over. There were ample threads attesting to this.
By your own criteria of balance, how important is it to do something well that is of zero impact to the game ?
Solo ability vs. team usefulness.
How is it fair to give an AT like the Defender the same ability to solo as an AT like the Scrapper?
The Defender can join a team and bring quite a bit to improve the performance of the entire team, while all a Scrapper can bring is his own damage. The Scrapper can't heal or buff his teammates, can't hold agro effectively, can't utilize any significant crowd control. He could solo well, but that was because he was practically useless on a team. That's how that balance worked, the less you had to offer to a team, the better you were at soloing, and vice versa.
If Defenders could solo just as fast as a Scrapper -AND- were still just as valued on teams, that wouldn't have been fair to the Scrappers.
It is clear that we saw Stalkers VERY differently.
You saw overpowered PvP gods.
I saw gimped Scrappers with their AoE taken away that begged for pity spots on Master-run teams, that seldom got PvP kills because no one was stupid enough to stand still long enough to get killed by them. There were 3 or 4 decent Stalker PvPers on my server, everyone else played ranged ATs.
I was one of a handful of decent Scrapper players, and it was largely because I stumbled on the best PvP secondary by accident when I created my main (Claws/Regen). Ranged ATs trumped melee ATs pretty much every time, because they could just constantly kite the melee ATs and rest assured that the melee AT would never land more than one hit at a time while jousting them.
And our different perspective on Stalkers is being paralleled here with Rogues. Except Rogues here aren't begging for pity spots on teams.
I didn't intend to derail this thread with a discussion of a game that no longer exists, just that's where most of my experience was so I was drawing a comparison to try and better understand the issue here.
Edit:
The system IS rendered deliberately opaque. It's kind of a Cryptic trademark (ironic when you think about how aptly named the company is). Not telling players how stuff works means they can change it however they want and no one will be the wiser.
Is there any plans to put in dimishing returns for PvP stun lock? I cannot cast skills when I am fighting this class. I cannot run most of the time, sometimes I get lucky and their rotation of encounter skills missed their cooldown. Basically if the rogue makes no mistakes I cannot cast spells to keep myself alive and the other time I cannot move.
Has any of the team spoken out about dimishing returns for a minute or some time in pvp?
what the hell kind of rogues are you playing that can lock you down with CC? they get three dazes:
Shadow strike, which only dazes if used from stealth and it only lasts for half a second, oh, and does no damage, people only use this to refill stealth bar, and very few even do that.
Smoke bomb, which is laughable, you can just walk out of it, daze gone... ITs only real use is to force people to move out of the blue circle of immortality that clerics put down (Astral shield)
Dazing strike, which is the only decent daze, it lasts a good amount of time, however, it has a huge start up time, which is so easily dodged that its not worth using, doing it from stealth halfs the start up time, which makes it arguable useable, from stealth, but still far from good.
Also, if a rogue took all three of those abilities, he'd have nothing to do damage with except his at wills, which alone just don't cut it.
Also keep in mind that you can still run around while dazed and keep away from the rogue till it runs out. Presuming he manages to hit you with it.
Rogues get the worst CC of all five classes... by far. Which is fine, since that's not their job, but it makes complaining about the few mediocre CC abilities they do get very much laughable.
Is there any plans to put in dimishing returns for PvP stun lock? I cannot cast skills when I am fighting this class. I cannot run most of the time, sometimes I get lucky and their rotation of encounter skills missed their cooldown. Basically if the rogue makes no mistakes I cannot cast spells to keep myself alive and the other time I cannot move.
Has any of the team spoken out about dimishing returns for a minute or some time in pvp?
GF's can stunlock you much better, same with CW's and GWF can spec for it too. So getting stunlocked is NOT a TR specific OP thing.
Diminishing returns aren't really useful when the stun lasts less than a second while the power that causes the stun is already available again. The only perma-stuns come from rotations TR don't have.
Please stop making them into some magical boogie-men.
First off I'm glad to say I've played all classes, gotten their pvp gear and spec'd them as best I can, with a little help from mates and guides.
I can say for sure, that end game PVP rogues do NOT need a nerf they have a a set amount of dazes from which non of them root you in place, not to mention 'Dazing Strike' resets the victims CD's as a pay-off for it's lengthy stun (which a lot of people have yet to mention).
The biggest threat from bad to worse imo:
1# GF: Now this is end game PVP im talking about just remember and have become all the rage in PVP. A GF spec'd correctly, with the right rotation and good gear can keep you knocked down for a good percentage of the time and do big numbers - not to mention they have a lot of health and resistance. I've seen a GF take on a 1v4 and almost come out on top - now just to clarify the people we were versing where geared and reasonably good players not to mention we ended up loosing that match. (To clarify I que'd alone for that game and most games for that matter)
2# CW: This goes without saying it has range & an extra dodge, which is an automatic advantage on a melee class, they're called 'Control Wizards' for a reason, because they can lock you in place for the world to open up a world of pain on you and can blast you back to gain more range on you, not to mention that encounter forfeits your daily (Lurkers Assault). They also do big numbers. Their three dodges, repel, bubble and the fact that they're range gives them decent survivability.
3# GWF: Now 90% of the time with my rotation, build and gear I can 1v1 GWF and their moves are easy to dodge - but once they knock you down, it's the same song with GF's they also have great survivability and good damage.
4# DC: Best survivability in the game, takes ALOT to take a DC down and by then their friends have come to help, there damage isn't all that great but this is a support class in and of it's self so no surprise there.
5# TR: Now this is here from my personal experience as a TR, if you use Dazing Strike', 'Smoke Bomb' or 'Duelist's Flurry' at end game PVP against other rogues or any class in that matter, then you're in my opinion either an inexperienced player, misinformed of its efficiency or of course the obvious....bad player. The pay-off on a 1v1 against a rogue is who has stealth and who can utilise it better than the other. We have stealth and 'Impossible to Catch' our survivability is ok but limited.
Rogues are the most squishiest class besides CW which is the pay-off for the doing the most damage, there is no need to nerf rogues if you can't beat a rogue as any of the classes above adapt and become a better player.
Now for pre-end game PVP rogues and CW will continue to dominate due to their raw damage and everyone has either crappy green or blue gear, it's to be expected.
If you know what you are doing with your own class then you don't need to worry about rogues. I do pvp with a great weapon fighter and the last domination I was in took a wizard and 2 rogues to take me out and I'm only lvl 35.
If you know what you are doing with your own class then you don't need to worry about rogues. I do pvp with a great weapon fighter and the last domination I was in took a wizard and 2 rogues to take me out and I'm only lvl 35.
Get to 60 then come back and tell us how good GWFs are at endgame pvp. You're in for one heck of a surprise.
I have a Great Swordsman, Hunter Ranger, Devoted Cleric, And A Trickster Rogue all level 60's. The Rogue is my Favorite one out of all of them, with the Cleric coming in at a close second. I've I've spent like two grand on this game trying to make my character stronger. Not weaker! And I'm still not satisfied with it. Then people constantly complain that they are overpowered when they're not. I'm trying to make my character stronger, not weaker. People really need to just quit complaining. Yesterday I took my rogue up against a cleric and the Cleric killed me 5 times in a row and I absolutely could not win. At All, Finally had to try and capture a different point. It's All about enchantments and equipment, PVP gear sets, Tenacity scores and how much time people have put into their characters. If the other person has better stuff than you do your going to lose end of story. As a rogue I get killed all the time in PVP. Do I get mad? no, well maybe a little bit. But should I hate the other person for it? No, in fact the other person that just killed you may be on your team in the next match. Or maybe help you kill a dragon later on in another level, I've seen it happen several times. Anyway It just seems ridiculous, and it's actually kind of funny how everybody helps each other out in PVE but then when it comes to PVP everyone wants to rip each others heads off lol. I don't even play the epic dungeons anymore, that's a joke because most of the time people just kick you out of the game for no reason at all and then they complain that everybody sucks. (I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about) Come on think about it, as I was saying earlier. It's about having good gear and leveled up enchantments. People aren't going to have a very good gear score If nobody lets them play through an epic dungeon to get the gear. I played through Castle Never after being kicked for about half the day (not even exaggerating) Finally beat the enemy and right afterwards got kicked off for no reason. Didn't even get anything out of it. Haven't played one since, Now did that make me mad? YES!!!! I got to test out the durability of an Xbox controller against the wall. (It still works fine too:) Now those issues that I listed are far more worth complaining about than rogues being overpowered when they're not. Although Rogues are the most damage producing characters in the game, but that's because they're supposed to be.
Comments
The only MMO I've played extensively was City of Heroes (RIP
The only time I ever called for nerfs was after extensive testing on my own part. Toward the end of the game's life I had several of my suggestions implemented. Not because I had any more clout than anyone else. Because I looked at it rationally, and approached it from a perspective of balance, rather than just feeling like something was overpowered. The suggestions that were implemented were done because I brought something to the devs' attention that legitimately was a problem, and I proposed a fair solution.
When you feel like something is overpowered, step back and look at it from an overall balance perspective:
-Okay, Class X is really good at Thing A. If yes, that is step 1 to a legitimate problem.
-Is there something it really sucks at? If yes, there is no problem. If no, that is step 2 to legitimate problem.
-Are there other classes that are just as good at Thing A? If yes, there is no problem. If no, that is step 3 to a legitimate problem.
-Are there other things it is really good at aside from Thing A? If no, there is no problem. If yes, that is step 4 to legitimate problem.
If you can't prove any of those things, then calling for a nerf just makes you look like a whiner. If you can lay out exactly why you feel like there is a problem, and back it up with facts, then maybe you might be on to something.
It seems that this is from a PvP standpoint. MMO PvP has always been a case of Rock/Paper/Scissors. Every class, when played by equally skilled players, will do well against certain other classes, and get owned by certain other classes. That's how PvP balance works.
I don't have much experience with this particular game yet, but it has been alluded to that rogues own the clerics that are untouchable to some other classes. If Clerics also own a given class, and something in turn owns the rogue, then it sounds like it is by design and following the rock/paper/scissors template of MMO PvP.
Stalker = Rogue.
Stealthy melee class with lower survivability and insane burst damage in exchange for pathetic AoE and little to no control. Could 2 shot inexperienced players with relative ease, but if the initial strike failed they had to run away or die.
Most of the complaints were coming from the newbies who hadn't worked out how to neutralize the threat the stalkers posed. Sound like what's going on here?
That's it exactly. Any anecdotal 'evidence' of tanks being one-shotted by TR's is only evidence of a begruntled player.
Even stories of how TR's dominate pre-30's or even pre-60's, they're useless. Not only will the majority of PvP take place at the highest level, being upscaled to fit in a level-range will gimp you. There's just no way you can get any good idea about class balance when all the skills are skewed.
And gear matters, a lot. I haven't been PvPing long, but when I see only greens on my teammates, I know it's going to be difficult. While at the same time, I'm wearing all purple PvP gear and I definitely don't feel OP (and the scoreboards will confirm it).
It really is about skill, but you need the gear to get it effective.
Just assumed they were intended to solo bosses while the rest of the team watches.
And Stalkers were OP up until the game shut down. What was your argument again?
Also, Stalkers squishy? LOL
who was saying rogues tank better than GF... is talking through his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>..
GF can simply stun lock u... blardy impossible to get near him... just keep getting thrown then he comes charging... thrown again...
I have no idea why ppl can say rogues are OP...when they can prolly only have a gd chance of killing 1 v1 when they are able to approach from stealth without the player actually noticing...
and even in stealth if he comes to close of gets targetted... he becomes slightly visible...
Rogues need a buff seriously at least make it such tt... when in stealth they cant be seeen at all...
regardless of proximity
Rouges well naturally be at the top of the current PvP system, not for being OP or what not, but simply because the current system rewards the classes with high damage output, while ignoring the classes without high damage output. IF they were to fix the point scoring system to actually take into account each Class performing their actual roles things wont be so bad.
When you get clerics complaining bout rouges slaughtering them in PvP, you had a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> team who felt more in key with running to the different points without any strategy involved. I. E defense.(Low level PvP cleric heals are still useless and do nothing). Also stop standing still, I know we have to be still to cast but that doesnt mean you have to stay in the same place, move fire your divine powers. Move more, fire off your at wills, move again then repeat. Trust me rouges well start to get annoyed, especially with our divine daunting light.
GF's and GWF's who argue that Rouges are OP your either going to be being used as a tanking class or you should be using yourself to charge straight into a groups. Do not try going 1v1 with the rouge, seriously of course your going to loose when they can control 1v1 fights. Group up to trap them and your nice and safe. Or just learn to move, if your just contesting a point so the other team dont get anything from it. (A good team from what I've seen would have one of these just constantly contesting the other teams Control Points this is really what your two classes are for in PVP).
CW's that complain bout rouges being OP, seriously stop firing all your Control spells at once at a rouge. Fire one, if it works then launch all the others. IF it doesn't, chuck on another non Control spell then dash away and by the time you finish your three dash's, you can control the rouge.
Best way to learn to counter so called OP classes is to actually play them to see their limitations. Since fighting rouges takes a different tactic than say fighting a GF or a Cleric.
Just to also point out that those that say PvE rouges are OP, it only seems that way since they get very little aggro compared to say the cleric; so in groups it can seem they are OP. A solo rouge however, has a **** hard time later on, simply due to the constant adds in the late game bosses that actually have some strength, especially since a rouge cant deal with all of them at once like most of the other classes (though I'm not sure about a the GF never played as that one).
Stalkers OP? HA!
You clearly didn't read the dozens upon dozens of threads complaining how the Stalker's gimmick was completely useless in PvE and the class was only good for ganking PvP noobs. They were described as a squishy Scrapper with pathetic AoE in exchange for burst damage that was largely useless in PvE. Their PvP gimmick consisted of having to win a fight in the first 10 seconds or get the floor wiped with them. That basically made them largely incapable of killing another melee class that was played by anyone who knew what they were doing.
I had no fear of Stalkers in PvP. They couldn't kill me before I wiped the floor with them, unless they ganged up and ASed me all at once. And I wasn't even that great of a PvPer. They were very little threat to anyone with half a clue what they were doing.
Mind/Fire Dominators and Psi/Energy Blasters were the OP PvP characters in that game. Not Stalkers, not by a long shot.
I know this isn't CoH, but some of these arguments are starting to sound really familiar.
LOL
PVP was killed in CoH 4 years before it was shut down. Not only was it killed, it had it's head cut off, a chicken stuffed down its neck, the whole thing cremated and its ashes scattered to the winds. Then you had devs BS the playerbase that yes it was a "high priority and would receive regular updates"
Bad players complaining about what they couldn't use effectively is a constant. Stalkers were OP, the only reason you didn't see more of them was because the improved version of the AT was even more OP. Widows could do all that stalkers could do but better.
Lord I miss that game, but in all truth it was a mercy killing. Maybe someone will take the good parts, leave behind the dev arrogance and make a worthy successor.
Edit: And yes CoH is the perfect proof that before you worry about classes that are overperforming, you need to deal with the underpowered classes. The gap in solo performance in that game was horrendous, and the balance in the damage dealing ATs was just off the chart.
I'm gonna have to disagree. Stalkers were helpless against any AT that could stay out of melee range of them with a player smart enough to keep moving. And they were too squishy to go toe-to-toe with any AT that would actually hold still and fight them. They had ONE gimmick: A massive single target attack out of nowhere. And that gimmick only worked against players that were dumb enough to stop moving for more than a second or two at a time, and that were squishy enough for the follow up attack to kill them.
I saw more Stalkers running away from fights than anything else.
I didn't have much of a problem soloing anything. I had a Defender who specialized in soloing Giant Monsters. Most of my scrappers could solo AVs (and there were ATs much better suited to that than Scrappers). The game was actually pretty well balanced, most of the complaints about balance that I saw had more to due with player error than with an actual balance problem. If anything was overpowered and in need of a nerf, it was Brutes. And Blasters needed a buff (which they were supposed to be getting right before they announced the shutdown of the game)
My point here? CoH finally got to a point of being pretty well balanced (in PvE at least, PvP was always broken in one way or another). It took them 4 years to do it from the point of the new dev team taking over. No MMO will ever be perfectly balanced for every single player playing it. It's flat out impossible. About the best you can expect is for it to reach a point of being "close enough", and even then some enterprising player will come up with something that throws it out of whack again that never occurred to the devs as being possible to do.
Expecting a brand new MMO to get 100% of the bugs and imbalances ironed out in the beta stages is asking WAY too much. As I mentioned, I haven't been here long enough to see some of these issues first-hand, but I've been reading the forums since I arrived.
Balance issues that I believe might be legitimate problems:
-CW damage on their daily power (Ice Knife I think it is?). If that power is truly doing 30k damage to a target with full health, that should be looked at.
-DC Astral Shield stacking.
-GWF lacking any significant single target damage, and just lacking in damage overall.
So, that's 2 classes that a nerf should be considered for, and one that could use a buff.
I'm not seeing a significant problem with Rogues. High single target damage is their schtick, and they don't seem to have much else going for them.
What I would do:
-Slightly lower CW damage across the board, in exchange for improved control ability. Definitely do something about that ridiculous daily. Or perhaps give players an option to choose control OR damage, but not both. Like maybe a choice when choosing new abilities to slant them more toward control or damage potential.
-Limit how many Astral Shields can be stacked at once. Hard to kill is okay. Invincible, not so much.
-Give GWFs a boost to their damage potential. Having not played one yet, I can't say how much they need. And give them something they can do that no one is better at, which is one of the major complaints I've seen so far.
-Make GFs better at tanking than they are now, and give players a reason to want one along. But don't make them mandatory. Perhaps by giving them some kind of ability that uses their enemies' numbers against them.
I'd like to see this game end up at a balance point where any task can be completed with any mix of classes. In my opinion, a set group makeup that you MUST have to succeed is a sign of bad game design. Make it so any given class is nice to have, but not required to succeed and I'll be happy. They've got some time to figure out how to pull that off if they want.
I really don't know where you are getting this from. I have to guess it's a false impression from the fact everyone who was any good at PvP left after I13 and all that were left was people who were not very adept at playing. Especially seeing as they had ranged snipes that would crit for most a squishies hitpoints.
I know post I13 Warburg was empty enough you had people AFK farming there. Kind of sad I stuck it out while I really enjoyed that game there was a horrible set of design iterations that made it appeal to hardly anyone.
Well there is your proof they were bad players. You'd never see a good stalker
::SIGH::
Yes everything there could solo, that isn't what constitutes performance. In the time a defender took to do anything other ATs could do the same tasks three or four times over. There were ample threads attesting to this.
By your own criteria of balance, how important is it to do something well that is of zero impact to the game ?
The new dev team didn't balance much of anything, they just substituted their biases for the prior teams biases. I still remember Synapse giving a twitter interview about fixing energy melee. His solution completely redo energy melee into virtually new power set.
Brilliant, he managed to fix a powerset by making something that would mostly appeal to himself.
All reasonable issues. The problem is the system is rendered deliberately opaque. My own suspicion is that this is done to allow them to make changes without informing the players and boost the sales of respec tokens.
You're playing with terrible rogues if a cleric is out DPSing them.
Has any of the team spoken out about dimishing returns for a minute or some time in pvp?
Solo ability vs. team usefulness.
How is it fair to give an AT like the Defender the same ability to solo as an AT like the Scrapper?
The Defender can join a team and bring quite a bit to improve the performance of the entire team, while all a Scrapper can bring is his own damage. The Scrapper can't heal or buff his teammates, can't hold agro effectively, can't utilize any significant crowd control. He could solo well, but that was because he was practically useless on a team. That's how that balance worked, the less you had to offer to a team, the better you were at soloing, and vice versa.
If Defenders could solo just as fast as a Scrapper -AND- were still just as valued on teams, that wouldn't have been fair to the Scrappers.
It is clear that we saw Stalkers VERY differently.
You saw overpowered PvP gods.
I saw gimped Scrappers with their AoE taken away that begged for pity spots on Master-run teams, that seldom got PvP kills because no one was stupid enough to stand still long enough to get killed by them. There were 3 or 4 decent Stalker PvPers on my server, everyone else played ranged ATs.
I was one of a handful of decent Scrapper players, and it was largely because I stumbled on the best PvP secondary by accident when I created my main (Claws/Regen). Ranged ATs trumped melee ATs pretty much every time, because they could just constantly kite the melee ATs and rest assured that the melee AT would never land more than one hit at a time while jousting them.
And our different perspective on Stalkers is being paralleled here with Rogues. Except Rogues here aren't begging for pity spots on teams.
I didn't intend to derail this thread with a discussion of a game that no longer exists, just that's where most of my experience was so I was drawing a comparison to try and better understand the issue here.
Edit:
The system IS rendered deliberately opaque. It's kind of a Cryptic trademark (ironic when you think about how aptly named the company is). Not telling players how stuff works means they can change it however they want and no one will be the wiser.
what the hell kind of rogues are you playing that can lock you down with CC? they get three dazes:
Shadow strike, which only dazes if used from stealth and it only lasts for half a second, oh, and does no damage, people only use this to refill stealth bar, and very few even do that.
Smoke bomb, which is laughable, you can just walk out of it, daze gone... ITs only real use is to force people to move out of the blue circle of immortality that clerics put down (Astral shield)
Dazing strike, which is the only decent daze, it lasts a good amount of time, however, it has a huge start up time, which is so easily dodged that its not worth using, doing it from stealth halfs the start up time, which makes it arguable useable, from stealth, but still far from good.
Also, if a rogue took all three of those abilities, he'd have nothing to do damage with except his at wills, which alone just don't cut it.
Also keep in mind that you can still run around while dazed and keep away from the rogue till it runs out. Presuming he manages to hit you with it.
Rogues get the worst CC of all five classes... by far. Which is fine, since that's not their job, but it makes complaining about the few mediocre CC abilities they do get very much laughable.
GF's can stunlock you much better, same with CW's and GWF can spec for it too. So getting stunlocked is NOT a TR specific OP thing.
Diminishing returns aren't really useful when the stun lasts less than a second while the power that causes the stun is already available again. The only perma-stuns come from rotations TR don't have.
Please stop making them into some magical boogie-men.
I can say for sure, that end game PVP rogues do NOT need a nerf they have a a set amount of dazes from which non of them root you in place, not to mention 'Dazing Strike' resets the victims CD's as a pay-off for it's lengthy stun (which a lot of people have yet to mention).
The biggest threat from bad to worse imo:
1# GF: Now this is end game PVP im talking about just remember and have become all the rage in PVP. A GF spec'd correctly, with the right rotation and good gear can keep you knocked down for a good percentage of the time and do big numbers - not to mention they have a lot of health and resistance. I've seen a GF take on a 1v4 and almost come out on top - now just to clarify the people we were versing where geared and reasonably good players not to mention we ended up loosing that match. (To clarify I que'd alone for that game and most games for that matter)
2# CW: This goes without saying it has range & an extra dodge, which is an automatic advantage on a melee class, they're called 'Control Wizards' for a reason, because they can lock you in place for the world to open up a world of pain on you and can blast you back to gain more range on you, not to mention that encounter forfeits your daily (Lurkers Assault). They also do big numbers. Their three dodges, repel, bubble and the fact that they're range gives them decent survivability.
3# GWF: Now 90% of the time with my rotation, build and gear I can 1v1 GWF and their moves are easy to dodge - but once they knock you down, it's the same song with GF's they also have great survivability and good damage.
4# DC: Best survivability in the game, takes ALOT to take a DC down and by then their friends have come to help, there damage isn't all that great but this is a support class in and of it's self so no surprise there.
5# TR: Now this is here from my personal experience as a TR, if you use Dazing Strike', 'Smoke Bomb' or 'Duelist's Flurry' at end game PVP against other rogues or any class in that matter, then you're in my opinion either an inexperienced player, misinformed of its efficiency or of course the obvious....bad player. The pay-off on a 1v1 against a rogue is who has stealth and who can utilise it better than the other. We have stealth and 'Impossible to Catch' our survivability is ok but limited.
Rogues are the most squishiest class besides CW which is the pay-off for the doing the most damage, there is no need to nerf rogues if you can't beat a rogue as any of the classes above adapt and become a better player.
Now for pre-end game PVP rogues and CW will continue to dominate due to their raw damage and everyone has either crappy green or blue gear, it's to be expected.
That's a very interesting build she has. It looks like she has the Bilethorn enchantment that applies poison DoT's and her At-Wills do more damage.
Get to 60 then come back and tell us how good GWFs are at endgame pvp. You're in for one heck of a surprise.
On the grounds of both, this thread is closed.
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