What I do not understand about GFs is why would you gear up for defense/deflect or take damage reducing feats when blocking stops ALL damage anyways? Since you can attack while blocking (and restore your guard meter while doing so), just go pure dps, the survivalability is not an issue. I don't like it and I think that the class is generaly badly designed.
GFs are not alone here by any means tho, the whole CW mechanic tought to you since level 1 is the synergy, through various powers and feats, of arcane mastery with frost spells and chill and suddenly, outta nowhere at level 30 the only available specialisation is lightning damage that doesn't fit in, in any way, with the core class mechanics, wtf?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these classes are underpowered, they are just... inconsistent to me.
Apparently that's not the only thing you do not understand about GF. Blocking stops all damage, yes, but in any epic content you can't block more than a handful of blows from the weakest enemies, let alone big blows from bosses or big enemies. The guard meter restore you get with the RMB attack while blocking is an "awesome" 5%. Which is basically useless past level 50. So no, you can't just block everything all day long.
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What I do not understand about GFs is why would you gear up for defense/deflect or take damage reducing feats when blocking stops ALL damage anyways? Since you can attack while blocking (and restore your guard meter while doing so), just go pure dps, the survivalability is not an issue. I don't like it and I think that the class is generaly badly designed.
GFs are not alone here by any means tho, the whole CW mechanic tought to you since level 1 is the synergy, through various powers and feats, of arcane mastery with frost spells and chill and suddenly, outta nowhere at level 30 the only available specialisation is lightning damage that doesn't fit in, in any way, with the core class mechanics, wtf?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these classes are underpowered, they are just... inconsistent to me.
Block is supposed to be our "Dodge" but it doesnt work well with current encounter mechanics. Its better/easier for us to just run out of the big red circle or sidestep 2 spaces to the right/left, and than charge back in, than sit there and be hit by completely avoidable damage.
Our ways of getting our Guard meter back up take time to rebuild it to full, and in most cases the attacks of the bosses are coming fast enough that Guard isnt back up again fully and we have to move anyway. now there are talents that reduce damage even if guard gets broken, but even speced full def with all Guard generating abilitites it still doesnt come close to just moving 2 steps to the left/right. Add to that specing all the Guard regen feats/talents and we basicly neuter our ability to hold threat and it becomes a broken mechanic that doesnt currently work.
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strategiczMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I have decided to just pack up and move to another game that better suits my individual taste.
Neverwinter is good game and is a lot of fun. If someone just wanted to be a damage dealer or a support healer then this game would be really nice. However, for someone wanting a more traditional tank (Not one that holds threat on infinite enemies without any effort, but one that can play/spec defensively and still hold single target threat) it is not that good of a game in its current form. I am not going to put the game down because it is good, it just is not satisfying what I am seeking out in an experience.
Don't be discouraged if you play the game and really enjoy being a damage dealer or healing support, because I think you will be really happy here. If you're like me and want a traditional tank (think EQ1/2, WoW before any expansions, etc.) then maybe they will fix it for you.
I thank everyone who responded to this thread and wish you all the best.
2 dc are always better then a gf. End of.
What's the point of tanking really? So you got aggro, yay. But wait, what are those 27 red circles?! OH SHI~ And what your tank gonna do about it? Even if you face the boss away. 2 DCs on the other hand drop 2 AS and a FF if need be and you're golden. We don't even move from AOEs anymore lol. Just stand there ignoring AOEs, adds and what have you and dps the boss. They give us stupid boss mechanics - we use stupid farm methods.
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sadmummyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Yup, I main a GF and am going for full dps. I would love to go full defensive, but then I have too much trouble getting aggro. It's not impossible, just not worth it.
I posted this before, but I'll do it again. This isn't EQ 1, EQ 2, or WoW. The traditional role of "tank" doesn't work anymore. It's, if anything, MORE life like than before. Think about it. Why in the world would your tiny little triangle of metal be able to stop/soak up indefinite hits from giant geckos the size of a battleship? You claim to want to be able to tank just one target, yet you lament the fact that you can't keep agro off of the rest of the group? You seem to contradict yourself there. Coming from CO, I'm VERY familiar with how agro works. Having had a top of the line tank that was also a damage dealer on CO, I'm pretty sure I know what it takes to make another "tank" for THIS game. Other people have already discovered this fact as well, and thank the gods, adapted to survive and thrive. Damage, "taunting", and healing all pull agro. Healing being the lesser of the three at agro generation (at least this is how it worked on CO and I have no reason to believe it's any different here). Now the problem is that when mobs pop out for the first time, they follow the list for agro. If no one hits or taunts them, then they'll naturally go after healers. If someone DOES taunt them, it'll cause "snap agro", which is good for all of a few seconds. Think about it...
Mob 1... "Hey! That guy just called my mom a nasty name!!!!" beat, beat, beat, beat... "What the heck?! This guy isn't going down!! Oh !$@#! That other guy over there is healing him! Well I'll show that !%$# not to spoil MY fun!"
So THE best way to pull agro and hold it, is a combination of the two. Now, healing and taunting isn't an option, and why would you knowing that healing is the weaker of the three at stacking agro? If you whack the mob upside it's head AND call it names... That should be enough to infuriate most targets. Think about it...
Mob 1... "Hey! This !$@#er just called my mom nasty names! Oh !#%#! He just stabbed me in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> as well!!! That !%#!er!!!! I'm going to KILL his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!"
You don't have to out DPS everyone else in the group. You just need to be able to put out ENOUGH damage to be able to hold agro. Combine that with your ability to taunt and you have a dynamic "tank" that takes actual skill and brains to play. If this helps any, think of taunting as an additive to your damage. Say the wizard does X amount of damage. You can't match that amount. You can only do X-1. Now say your taunting ability is an additive of +2. Throw that onto your damage of X-1 and you end up with X-1+2 = X+1! You're now pulling down more agro than the wizard.
A mistake I think people are making is that they're expecting to be a monster magnet automatically and that all mobs are going to be instantly drawn to them. This is a few things. Lazy being the first thing that comes to my mind. Every other class out there takes skill and brains to be an effective character. Why should being a "tank" be any less difficult? Why should my rogue have to dance around the battlefield, pick targets, and use skills where I think appropriate... All while the "tank" just sits behind his/her/it's shield and calls mobs names? I mean sure, it'd make for a LOT easier job for me, but how lazy is that? To just sit there behind a shield and mash down just one button while I'm forced to fly around tapping multiple keys? I think this system is absolutely WONDERFUL for forcing people to break out of those old molds. It forces people to actually play smarter and more dynamically. No more lazy slugs just sitting there and doing squat for work.
Cryptic tried to appease the masses on CO once, by lowering the amount of agro from healing dramatically. That didn't work/help. It's because people were still stuck in the "old school" mindset. They couldn't seem to understand that they needed to actually HIT the mob for a decent amount to get it's attention as well as taunt it.
Oh. I apologize if my post seems a little disjointed, but I'm currently nursing a cold and my brain feels like it's filled with cotton.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
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sadmummyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
lady808, the problem is not it is different. The problem is, it is much more efficient to go dps gear and feats for tanking, than defensive ones.
Well, or even having 2 healers instead of a tank.
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antiviolenc3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
Mummy. It IS different. That's the whole reason why people like the OP are having issues. As someone earlier stated and I, you don't need to go full on damage dealer. You just need to be able to put out enough damage. Think of it as a balancing act. In my earlier example, if your X-1 is actually more like X-5... Then you're never going to be able to pull agro from the wizard.
Ugh. I need to go to bed. I can't seem to get my points out of my head in any sort of coherent manner. Bleh! Being sick stinks!
Oh! Anti... Yes I play a rogue, but as I stated as well, I had a top of the line "tank" on CO, which is another Cryptic game which uses very similar mechanics to this game. Don't tell me you actually thought Cryptic actually went out and cobbled together an entirely brand new system that no one has ever seen or experienced before, just for this game? It's the reason why I'm so comfortable with THIS game. A LOT of it's components are similar enough to CO that I'm totally comfortable with it, yet it's juuuuuust different enough that it catches and keeps my attention.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Yea its a sad.I wanted to play a tank cause i always liked the responsibility on my shoulders and teamwork.Thing is...its so boring if you doing it right.Cause if they hit you...they are gone to a healer.If YOU hit them, they are got for a healer.So you must fight like a stupid turtle with your shield up and stab...stab...stab...bash...bash...bash...
I already gave up and waiting for a new class.Hope there will be a bard or Warlock (With hellfire specilization, it would be ONLY excuse to right a ****ing burning horse kids!)
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sadmummyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
lady808 I didn't say it wasn't different. The role clearly is different like you say. What I am saying is, that difference is not the problem.
The problem comes when I want to go for defensive stats and feats, and I end up going for offensive because its just much more efficient at tanking.
Going defensive maybe would make me survive 15% better and have to work hard for getting aggro, while going offensive makes me do 40% more damage, and get aggro with ease.
Numbers are made up, it's just an example.
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vagrantzeroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Why would a monster fight a can of unbreakable steel if there are more fragile and dangerous targets ?
I hope that tanks will not become monster magnets just to justify the passive tank playstyle.
Passive tank style? What tardass MMO are you coming from? Tanking is one of the hardest if not hardest job in a raid/dungeon.
We literally cleared 3 dungeons with 2 clerics and 3 tricksters. Let the blueberries rationalise their spendings as much as they want: The day they fix astral shield stacking without fixing tanking people will cry blood.
im not specing for dps and i hold agro just fine not hard with the right build. most problem im having is finding a healer that wants to heal you
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited May 2013
A few tweaks here and there would go a long way to "fix" our tanking. Granted in some occasions it's possible, I notice that the big monsters are more tankable when there are no ***--ing small adds around to destroy you guard meter.
If I had the summarize the "issues" I've had with my Guardian Fighters they are:
- Lack of a single target taunt. We only have one AoE taunt and this doesn't allow to peel off one single target and move it away to a more convenient position (for example moving away healing monsters from the pack). Maybe adding a single target component to Lunging Strike or some other single target maneuver would help a lot.
- Guard meter gets simply destroyed in half a second if you're surrounded even by 2-3-4 small adds such as imps, and I say this with 21 strength, shield talent slotted and shield master specced.
- When guard is down our survivability goes down the drain, we do not have that much more health and/or mitigation than other classes. I'm pushing to 32k hp by slotting radiant gems (I have 3/4 of Stalwart Bulwark set, so hopefully when I get the final piece it will give a decent power boost at least), with dwarf cloak ecc... and I see rogues running around with 24k hp. /facepalm
A few tweaks here and there would go a long way to "fix" our tanking. Granted in some occasions it's possible, I notice that the big monsters are more tankable when there are no ***--ing small adds around to destroy you guard meter.
If I had the summarize the "issues" I've had with my Guardian Fighters they are:
- Lack of a single target taunt. We only have one AoE taunt and this doesn't allow to peel off one single target and move it away to a more convenient position (for example moving away healing monsters from the pack). Maybe adding a single target component to Lunging Strike or some other single target maneuver would help a lot.
- Guard meter gets simply destroyed in half a second if you're surrounded even by 2-3-4 small adds such as imps, and I say this with 21 strength, shield talent slotted and shield master specced.
- When guard is down our survivability goes down the drain, we do not have that much more health and/or mitigation than other classes. I'm pushing to 32k hp by slotting radiant gems (I have 3/4 of Stalwart Bulwark set, so hopefully when I get the final piece it will give a decent power boost at least), with dwarf cloak ecc... and I see rogues running around with 24k hp. /facepalm
Just wanted to say that we do have a single target taunt. It's called "knight's challenge", which basically forces the target to attack you, while making you and the target do double damage to each other and half damage to everyone else.
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strategiczMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
When used online, especially while playing an MMORPG, this term "tanking" is used to describe a player character class which is designed to absorb damage from others or computer aided characters.
"Tank" characters are especially important in large group instances. A Tank's job is to stand before the group, using their abilities and high armor values to force a particular "mob" (or group of) to continue attacking the Tank, while other characters contribute to over all damage while not taking damage themselves.
"Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation.
In real-time strategy games the role of a tank unit is to provide a health buffer for weaker ranged classes. Frequently maneuvering or other tactics are used by the tank to make themselves the most tempting or highest-priority target of enemy attacks, thereby diverting enemy attacks away from allies. Many basic strategies in games such as StarCraft and Warcraft III revolve around learning to micro-manage units so they attack tanks first so that the tanks do not continually attack units.
In group play found in many role-playing games, the role of the tank is to protect players that are low-armor or low-health classes. The role of a tank is typically to survive an oncoming attack, and then ensure that they are the target of the incoming attack. It then falls upon the healer (in large scale play, often specifically assigned to the role, with spells specializing with high healing output over one or two targets) to restore the tank's health so he does not die and allow him or her to take the next attack.
In MMOs, there is typically a mechanic that tanks rely on known as enmity, "aggro", or "threat", which is generated from damage and taunts. This makes monsters attack the tank. However, when fighting other players tanks will attempt to interrupt spell casters and apply debuffs, making them a high priority target for damage (as they are nullifying or mitigating the potential of the opposing team). Tanks are typically central to group play, and a large amount of responsibility is placed on the tank. Often a tank's death will cause the monsters to overrun the party as they cannot cope with the magnitude of incoming damage.
The term originally came in use with players of MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons), the text based predecessors of MMORPGs, and was used as early as 1994 on Usenet to describe the warrior class on DikuMUDs which had high hit points and the rescue skill, which allowed transferring one attacking mob from another player to the rescuing character.
In most games that feature a clear-cut "tank" class or character, there are three factors that contribute to a tank's survivability. The first is a large amount of health for absorbing damage that would normally go to lower health classes. The second is damage mitigation, the ability to lessen the damage attacks do in the first place. This is often accomplished through a high armor or defense stat mechanic. Finally, there is the ability to avoid attacks altogether. Depending on the game and class, a tank may focus on any combination of these. Examples:
World of Warcraft is designed more around effective HP to ease the strain on healers by providing a buffer for them while they cast healing spells. This is achieved by obtaining gear with stats related to HP and defense as to ensure they are not 'one shot' killed by the encounter, and then obtaining mitigation stats to reduce the overall damage taken. In The Burning Crusade not having 102.4% mitigation would cause bosses to use increased damage attacks on their target. Their 'threat' mechanic is typically boosted by statuses typically known as 'tankmodes' which increase the threat produced by each attack, however tanking gear typically has damage-increasing stats to assist with damage output. Reactive damage spells, like Retribution Aura or Holy Shield also contribute to threat produced, as they 'hit' the enemy when the tank is attacked. However, the Druid class has distinct style of tanking, which typically solely focuses health pool to resist damage.
In Final Fantasy XI two commonly used tanking styles are nicknamed "Blood Tanks" and "Blink Tanks". A blood tank focuses purely on being able to take many hits, through either higher than usual HP pools, heavy defense ratings, or both. A blink tank, on the other hand, focuses on higher than usual evasiveness and/or misdirection effects such as "shadow images", so as to prevent the damage from landing on the player in the first place. Depending on the type of fight you are going into, one of these two types of tanks is typically more suitable than the other. For example, against slower, less accurate enemies, a blink tank is ideal. In the proper setup, a blink tank will take hardly any damage at all, thus allowing party member resources that would otherwise be focused on the survival of the tank to be directed elsewhere, such as increasing DPS or enfeebling the enemy. Conversely, against faster, more accurate enemies, a blood tank is typically the tank of choice. A blink tank typically can not withstand nearly the damage a blood tank can, so in cases where damage is unavoidable, a blood tank usually fares much better. In Final Fantasy XI, blood tanks are of the Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Warrior classes, and blink tanks are of the Ninja and (to a lesser extent) Thief classes, although recent changes to the overall level cap and abilities of certain classes have expanded what classes can tank in certain specialized situations.
In Eve online, tanking can be achieved by all pilots who fly attack ships. Three main types of tanking are shield, armor, and hull. Each type can be maximized through a combination of bonuses from skillbook training, implants, ship modules, repair drone support. Due to limited ship module capacity, a tank must focus installed modules in one area (shields, armor, or hull) to maximize defense yet leave room for offensive modules. For example, a shield tank ship will have greater hit points in shields and low hit points in armor and hull. Speed tanking is an action of moving so fast that any damage dealt to the fast-moving tank is minimized or negligible/unhittable. Spider tanking is a combined effort by defending ships repairing each other during combat. Spider tanks are able to withstand targets that deal very high damage. Logistics ships, or "logies", keep tanks alive in combat by "transferring" capacitor energy for shield tanks, armor repair "energy" for armor tanks, and hull repair "energy" for hull tanks. Typical types of tanking decrease the amount of damage taken or the effective health pool, and use repair modules (which resemble healing classes in RPGs) to repair incoming damage.
In Warhammer Online each race has their own tank class. Three races on each side give each side 3 tanks to choose from. The classes are mirrored, but the tanks are generally divided into a Heavy Tank (Ironbreakers and Black Orcs who focus on sheer mitigation and blocking combined with large health pools which makes them superior at 1 on 1 tanking) a Reflective Tank (Blackguards and Swordmasters who have a variety of counterattacks to deal high damage) and AoE tanks (Knights and Chosens who are able to use their auras and AoE attacks to tank lots of enemies at once). In Warhammer, tanks have the ability to Guard another player and channel some of the threat that the player deals into their own threatpool. In PvP, tanks are able to storm the frontline and body block, or hold the line to reduce incoming damage. They can also challenge and taunt enemies off their allies.
Compared to the varying definitions of a tank, the guardian does not really fit the mold for any of them. The guardian in this game is just a wannabe assassin with a shield.
Just tell your teammates to give you and the cleric 6-7 seconds before start mashing their keyboards, the healing aggro was redesigned in a way that you can heal the person that is pulling the mobs for the first 8 seconds ( doesn't work correctly sometimes without swapping your gear first ) . Also people misunderstand how mark works in this game , you mark the targets and then you have to put some dmg on them so your aggro can actually hold if one mob goes for the cleric let's say - mark it again and use the guard + left click on it -- it comes right back to you . In some cases guard is better used for the Guard + Left click pull mechanic and reflecting damage , rather than " tanking " in the way that every normal person will think it would .
I'm not saying that threat works just fine and you should l2p GF no . All I'm saying is that managing the aggro in this game unlike some other popular MMOS is a group effort , if your healer bodypulls the adds and doesn't position correctly - you as a GF can't do much about it without brining all the other adds you collected during the earlier stages of the given pull to him / her .
What really happens here is this - the AoE heals also deal damage in this game ... wait what ?
Clerics atm work as a 1.support 2. dps 3.healing class 4.semi tanks at the same time - this should be adressed first imho . A GF can't compete for a spot in a group where you can have 2 clerics - class that does more than they are supposed to do .
And please fix the healing aggro , people have to strip at the begining of every dungeon session just to "sorta " fix it themselves .
lady808 I didn't say it wasn't different. The role clearly is different like you say. What I am saying is, that difference is not the problem.
The problem comes when I want to go for defensive stats and feats, and I end up going for offensive because its just much more efficient at tanking.
I don't see that specifically as a problem - rather, that's just how this particular game works. As others have pointed out, "tanking" means different things in different games. One of my favorite quotes from another MMO, in reference to a dps class being able to tank, was "Nothing says 'Hey you!' like a punch to the kidney."
The only issue I see here is that defensive stats are relatively marginal - while I find that disappointing, it's a separate issue from how and whether one can tank.
After playing each class, it seems like each one is geared towards damage dealing. Tanks only tank moderately but once the block meter is depleted they take about as much damage as everyone else. And aggro is a mess universally. Healers only heal "okay" without divinity and don't get their good heal until Lvl 50. So I have to suffer through 49 levels of mediocrity until I can put out decent heals? No thank you.
This reminds me of when 4E came out, and there were tons of people who had no idea how to play a Defender. That's because in prior editions, there were no mechanics for tanking - if the enemy was next to the fighter (AC26, 30HP) and rogue (AC16, 18HP) there was zero reason for the enemy to attack the fighter instead of the more damaging rogue who was easier to hit and kill. There's great incentive for the enemy to attack the rogue.
4E introduced mechanics to address that. If the enemy attacked someone other than the fighter next to it, the fighter gets a free attack - depending on the build, that attack was with boosted accuracy, damage, and even inflicting conditions. Avoiding that painful extra attack becomes incentive to attack the fighter instead of the rogue. However, this only offsets the incentive to attack the squishy if that punishment is strong enough.
In other words, in 4E a toothless invulnerable tank is worthless unless the enemy is really stupid. A lot of players had trouble with this concept.
Player: "Why aren't they attacking me? Why are they going after the squishies?" DM: "They're not attacking you because not only are they unable to hurt you, you don't hurt them much. So they're going after the scrawny wizard in robes instead, since he's a bigger threat while also being easier to take down."
Heh, yeah, when I played tabletop RPGs, we treated fighters (and clerics in AD&D) as literal meatshields; they "got the aggro" by charging into battle first, and by trying to physically block any monster that tried to do an end-run for the squishies. Positioning was everything. Fighters set up the line of battle so that non-fighters could unload with whatever they had.
I missed that when I first started playing MMOs. In fact, the whole notion of "taunting" seemed (and still seems) very alien and gimmicky. It actually took me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that more than one "tank" was a bad thing...
As far as we know, the GF is supposed to fill a specific role in the group, and that role is supposed to be necessary in group content encounters. If that's true then it's not working properly. The fact that people are farming -- not just completing but farming -- epic dungeons without an actual tank class tells you plainly that there are fundamental problems with combat mechanics that include but extend beyond threat management. When people are advertising groups in chat and stating that there's no need to "waste" a spot on a tank, there's a problem. That's a fact, and personal opinions as to the efficacy of the tanking class are irrelevant in the face of that fact.
I don't at all mind that the act of trying to hold aggro involves constantly zipping around, tagging mobs, and hoping that the group knows enough to stop hitting the things I've just tagged off of them. I roll tanks because it's supposed to be a "harder" job and I find it rewarding when I do it correctly. I do mind the fact that my "threat" seems more like a suggestion than a command. I mind very much that an NPC tank companion seems to draw attention more easily than a level 60 human tank with every possible point spent in threat generation. And I mind a great deal that the supposed tank class is proving unnecessary in groups.
As it stands, you simply don't need a tank because there are perfectly viable ways to clear the encounters without one. I think that's a problem -- again, assuming the game is supposed to work the way we think it does. If instead tanking is merely a suggested approach to clearing encounters, then I suppose it's working correctly and we are extra baggage by design, because the group w/ tank approach is simply less efficient than other combinations.
What? I tank most damage in any dungeon and I don't even use any tanking gear.
The threat system is semi-broken but you can make it work playing it properly with the encounters you choose.
You can't do everything as a GF you have to rely on other classes.
I don't think it was intended for a GF to hold 100% threat.
I mean our class is called Guardian FIGHTER not Guardian.
Comments
GFs are not alone here by any means tho, the whole CW mechanic tought to you since level 1 is the synergy, through various powers and feats, of arcane mastery with frost spells and chill and suddenly, outta nowhere at level 30 the only available specialisation is lightning damage that doesn't fit in, in any way, with the core class mechanics, wtf?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these classes are underpowered, they are just... inconsistent to me.
Block is supposed to be our "Dodge" but it doesnt work well with current encounter mechanics. Its better/easier for us to just run out of the big red circle or sidestep 2 spaces to the right/left, and than charge back in, than sit there and be hit by completely avoidable damage.
Our ways of getting our Guard meter back up take time to rebuild it to full, and in most cases the attacks of the bosses are coming fast enough that Guard isnt back up again fully and we have to move anyway. now there are talents that reduce damage even if guard gets broken, but even speced full def with all Guard generating abilitites it still doesnt come close to just moving 2 steps to the left/right. Add to that specing all the Guard regen feats/talents and we basicly neuter our ability to hold threat and it becomes a broken mechanic that doesnt currently work.
Neverwinter is good game and is a lot of fun. If someone just wanted to be a damage dealer or a support healer then this game would be really nice. However, for someone wanting a more traditional tank (Not one that holds threat on infinite enemies without any effort, but one that can play/spec defensively and still hold single target threat) it is not that good of a game in its current form. I am not going to put the game down because it is good, it just is not satisfying what I am seeking out in an experience.
Don't be discouraged if you play the game and really enjoy being a damage dealer or healing support, because I think you will be really happy here. If you're like me and want a traditional tank (think EQ1/2, WoW before any expansions, etc.) then maybe they will fix it for you.
I thank everyone who responded to this thread and wish you all the best.
Respectfully,
Disappointed Consumer/Tank.
DPS, DPS, DPS, DECOY, STEALTH, DPS, DPS, DPS
What's the point of tanking really? So you got aggro, yay. But wait, what are those 27 red circles?! OH SHI~ And what your tank gonna do about it? Even if you face the boss away. 2 DCs on the other hand drop 2 AS and a FF if need be and you're golden. We don't even move from AOEs anymore lol. Just stand there ignoring AOEs, adds and what have you and dps the boss. They give us stupid boss mechanics - we use stupid farm methods.
I'd rather not be alone, because I value friendships more than anything else.
Proud to be a part of Graviora Manent
Mob 1... "Hey! That guy just called my mom a nasty name!!!!" beat, beat, beat, beat... "What the heck?! This guy isn't going down!! Oh !$@#! That other guy over there is healing him! Well I'll show that !%$# not to spoil MY fun!"
So THE best way to pull agro and hold it, is a combination of the two. Now, healing and taunting isn't an option, and why would you knowing that healing is the weaker of the three at stacking agro? If you whack the mob upside it's head AND call it names... That should be enough to infuriate most targets. Think about it...
Mob 1... "Hey! This !$@#er just called my mom nasty names! Oh !#%#! He just stabbed me in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> as well!!! That !%#!er!!!! I'm going to KILL his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!"
You don't have to out DPS everyone else in the group. You just need to be able to put out ENOUGH damage to be able to hold agro. Combine that with your ability to taunt and you have a dynamic "tank" that takes actual skill and brains to play. If this helps any, think of taunting as an additive to your damage. Say the wizard does X amount of damage. You can't match that amount. You can only do X-1. Now say your taunting ability is an additive of +2. Throw that onto your damage of X-1 and you end up with X-1+2 = X+1! You're now pulling down more agro than the wizard.
A mistake I think people are making is that they're expecting to be a monster magnet automatically and that all mobs are going to be instantly drawn to them. This is a few things. Lazy being the first thing that comes to my mind. Every other class out there takes skill and brains to be an effective character. Why should being a "tank" be any less difficult? Why should my rogue have to dance around the battlefield, pick targets, and use skills where I think appropriate... All while the "tank" just sits behind his/her/it's shield and calls mobs names? I mean sure, it'd make for a LOT easier job for me, but how lazy is that? To just sit there behind a shield and mash down just one button while I'm forced to fly around tapping multiple keys? I think this system is absolutely WONDERFUL for forcing people to break out of those old molds. It forces people to actually play smarter and more dynamically. No more lazy slugs just sitting there and doing squat for work.
Cryptic tried to appease the masses on CO once, by lowering the amount of agro from healing dramatically. That didn't work/help. It's because people were still stuck in the "old school" mindset. They couldn't seem to understand that they needed to actually HIT the mob for a decent amount to get it's attention as well as taunt it.
Oh. I apologize if my post seems a little disjointed, but I'm currently nursing a cold and my brain feels like it's filled with cotton.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Well, or even having 2 healers instead of a tank.
Ah.. a TR.
Ugh. I need to go to bed. I can't seem to get my points out of my head in any sort of coherent manner. Bleh! Being sick stinks!
Oh! Anti... Yes I play a rogue, but as I stated as well, I had a top of the line "tank" on CO, which is another Cryptic game which uses very similar mechanics to this game. Don't tell me you actually thought Cryptic actually went out and cobbled together an entirely brand new system that no one has ever seen or experienced before, just for this game? It's the reason why I'm so comfortable with THIS game. A LOT of it's components are similar enough to CO that I'm totally comfortable with it, yet it's juuuuuust different enough that it catches and keeps my attention.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
I already gave up and waiting for a new class.Hope there will be a bard or Warlock (With hellfire specilization, it would be ONLY excuse to right a ****ing burning horse kids!)
The problem comes when I want to go for defensive stats and feats, and I end up going for offensive because its just much more efficient at tanking.
Going defensive maybe would make me survive 15% better and have to work hard for getting aggro, while going offensive makes me do 40% more damage, and get aggro with ease.
Numbers are made up, it's just an example.
Passive tank style? What tardass MMO are you coming from? Tanking is one of the hardest if not hardest job in a raid/dungeon.
We literally cleared 3 dungeons with 2 clerics and 3 tricksters. Let the blueberries rationalise their spendings as much as they want: The day they fix astral shield stacking without fixing tanking people will cry blood.
If I had the summarize the "issues" I've had with my Guardian Fighters they are:
- Lack of a single target taunt. We only have one AoE taunt and this doesn't allow to peel off one single target and move it away to a more convenient position (for example moving away healing monsters from the pack). Maybe adding a single target component to Lunging Strike or some other single target maneuver would help a lot.
- Guard meter gets simply destroyed in half a second if you're surrounded even by 2-3-4 small adds such as imps, and I say this with 21 strength, shield talent slotted and shield master specced.
- When guard is down our survivability goes down the drain, we do not have that much more health and/or mitigation than other classes. I'm pushing to 32k hp by slotting radiant gems (I have 3/4 of Stalwart Bulwark set, so hopefully when I get the final piece it will give a decent power boost at least), with dwarf cloak ecc... and I see rogues running around with 24k hp. /facepalm
Just wanted to say that we do have a single target taunt. It's called "knight's challenge", which basically forces the target to attack you, while making you and the target do double damage to each other and half damage to everyone else.
"Tank" characters are especially important in large group instances. A Tank's job is to stand before the group, using their abilities and high armor values to force a particular "mob" (or group of) to continue attacking the Tank, while other characters contribute to over all damage while not taking damage themselves.
"Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation.
In real-time strategy games the role of a tank unit is to provide a health buffer for weaker ranged classes. Frequently maneuvering or other tactics are used by the tank to make themselves the most tempting or highest-priority target of enemy attacks, thereby diverting enemy attacks away from allies. Many basic strategies in games such as StarCraft and Warcraft III revolve around learning to micro-manage units so they attack tanks first so that the tanks do not continually attack units.
In group play found in many role-playing games, the role of the tank is to protect players that are low-armor or low-health classes. The role of a tank is typically to survive an oncoming attack, and then ensure that they are the target of the incoming attack. It then falls upon the healer (in large scale play, often specifically assigned to the role, with spells specializing with high healing output over one or two targets) to restore the tank's health so he does not die and allow him or her to take the next attack.
In MMOs, there is typically a mechanic that tanks rely on known as enmity, "aggro", or "threat", which is generated from damage and taunts. This makes monsters attack the tank. However, when fighting other players tanks will attempt to interrupt spell casters and apply debuffs, making them a high priority target for damage (as they are nullifying or mitigating the potential of the opposing team). Tanks are typically central to group play, and a large amount of responsibility is placed on the tank. Often a tank's death will cause the monsters to overrun the party as they cannot cope with the magnitude of incoming damage.
The term originally came in use with players of MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons), the text based predecessors of MMORPGs, and was used as early as 1994 on Usenet to describe the warrior class on DikuMUDs which had high hit points and the rescue skill, which allowed transferring one attacking mob from another player to the rescuing character.
In most games that feature a clear-cut "tank" class or character, there are three factors that contribute to a tank's survivability. The first is a large amount of health for absorbing damage that would normally go to lower health classes. The second is damage mitigation, the ability to lessen the damage attacks do in the first place. This is often accomplished through a high armor or defense stat mechanic. Finally, there is the ability to avoid attacks altogether. Depending on the game and class, a tank may focus on any combination of these. Examples:
World of Warcraft is designed more around effective HP to ease the strain on healers by providing a buffer for them while they cast healing spells. This is achieved by obtaining gear with stats related to HP and defense as to ensure they are not 'one shot' killed by the encounter, and then obtaining mitigation stats to reduce the overall damage taken. In The Burning Crusade not having 102.4% mitigation would cause bosses to use increased damage attacks on their target. Their 'threat' mechanic is typically boosted by statuses typically known as 'tankmodes' which increase the threat produced by each attack, however tanking gear typically has damage-increasing stats to assist with damage output. Reactive damage spells, like Retribution Aura or Holy Shield also contribute to threat produced, as they 'hit' the enemy when the tank is attacked. However, the Druid class has distinct style of tanking, which typically solely focuses health pool to resist damage.
In Final Fantasy XI two commonly used tanking styles are nicknamed "Blood Tanks" and "Blink Tanks". A blood tank focuses purely on being able to take many hits, through either higher than usual HP pools, heavy defense ratings, or both. A blink tank, on the other hand, focuses on higher than usual evasiveness and/or misdirection effects such as "shadow images", so as to prevent the damage from landing on the player in the first place. Depending on the type of fight you are going into, one of these two types of tanks is typically more suitable than the other. For example, against slower, less accurate enemies, a blink tank is ideal. In the proper setup, a blink tank will take hardly any damage at all, thus allowing party member resources that would otherwise be focused on the survival of the tank to be directed elsewhere, such as increasing DPS or enfeebling the enemy. Conversely, against faster, more accurate enemies, a blood tank is typically the tank of choice. A blink tank typically can not withstand nearly the damage a blood tank can, so in cases where damage is unavoidable, a blood tank usually fares much better. In Final Fantasy XI, blood tanks are of the Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Warrior classes, and blink tanks are of the Ninja and (to a lesser extent) Thief classes, although recent changes to the overall level cap and abilities of certain classes have expanded what classes can tank in certain specialized situations.
In Eve online, tanking can be achieved by all pilots who fly attack ships. Three main types of tanking are shield, armor, and hull. Each type can be maximized through a combination of bonuses from skillbook training, implants, ship modules, repair drone support. Due to limited ship module capacity, a tank must focus installed modules in one area (shields, armor, or hull) to maximize defense yet leave room for offensive modules. For example, a shield tank ship will have greater hit points in shields and low hit points in armor and hull. Speed tanking is an action of moving so fast that any damage dealt to the fast-moving tank is minimized or negligible/unhittable. Spider tanking is a combined effort by defending ships repairing each other during combat. Spider tanks are able to withstand targets that deal very high damage. Logistics ships, or "logies", keep tanks alive in combat by "transferring" capacitor energy for shield tanks, armor repair "energy" for armor tanks, and hull repair "energy" for hull tanks. Typical types of tanking decrease the amount of damage taken or the effective health pool, and use repair modules (which resemble healing classes in RPGs) to repair incoming damage.
In Warhammer Online each race has their own tank class. Three races on each side give each side 3 tanks to choose from. The classes are mirrored, but the tanks are generally divided into a Heavy Tank (Ironbreakers and Black Orcs who focus on sheer mitigation and blocking combined with large health pools which makes them superior at 1 on 1 tanking) a Reflective Tank (Blackguards and Swordmasters who have a variety of counterattacks to deal high damage) and AoE tanks (Knights and Chosens who are able to use their auras and AoE attacks to tank lots of enemies at once). In Warhammer, tanks have the ability to Guard another player and channel some of the threat that the player deals into their own threatpool. In PvP, tanks are able to storm the frontline and body block, or hold the line to reduce incoming damage. They can also challenge and taunt enemies off their allies.
Compared to the varying definitions of a tank, the guardian does not really fit the mold for any of them. The guardian in this game is just a wannabe assassin with a shield.
I'm not saying that threat works just fine and you should l2p GF no . All I'm saying is that managing the aggro in this game unlike some other popular MMOS is a group effort , if your healer bodypulls the adds and doesn't position correctly - you as a GF can't do much about it without brining all the other adds you collected during the earlier stages of the given pull to him / her .
What really happens here is this - the AoE heals also deal damage in this game ... wait what ?
Clerics atm work as a 1.support 2. dps 3.healing class 4.semi tanks at the same time - this should be adressed first imho . A GF can't compete for a spot in a group where you can have 2 clerics - class that does more than they are supposed to do .
And please fix the healing aggro , people have to strip at the begining of every dungeon session just to "sorta " fix it themselves .
The only issue I see here is that defensive stats are relatively marginal - while I find that disappointing, it's a separate issue from how and whether one can tank.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
4E introduced mechanics to address that. If the enemy attacked someone other than the fighter next to it, the fighter gets a free attack - depending on the build, that attack was with boosted accuracy, damage, and even inflicting conditions. Avoiding that painful extra attack becomes incentive to attack the fighter instead of the rogue. However, this only offsets the incentive to attack the squishy if that punishment is strong enough.
In other words, in 4E a toothless invulnerable tank is worthless unless the enemy is really stupid. A lot of players had trouble with this concept.
Player: "Why aren't they attacking me? Why are they going after the squishies?"
DM: "They're not attacking you because not only are they unable to hurt you, you don't hurt them much. So they're going after the scrawny wizard in robes instead, since he's a bigger threat while also being easier to take down."
I missed that when I first started playing MMOs. In fact, the whole notion of "taunting" seemed (and still seems) very alien and gimmicky. It actually took me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that more than one "tank" was a bad thing...
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
seriously...
I don't at all mind that the act of trying to hold aggro involves constantly zipping around, tagging mobs, and hoping that the group knows enough to stop hitting the things I've just tagged off of them. I roll tanks because it's supposed to be a "harder" job and I find it rewarding when I do it correctly. I do mind the fact that my "threat" seems more like a suggestion than a command. I mind very much that an NPC tank companion seems to draw attention more easily than a level 60 human tank with every possible point spent in threat generation. And I mind a great deal that the supposed tank class is proving unnecessary in groups.
As it stands, you simply don't need a tank because there are perfectly viable ways to clear the encounters without one. I think that's a problem -- again, assuming the game is supposed to work the way we think it does. If instead tanking is merely a suggested approach to clearing encounters, then I suppose it's working correctly and we are extra baggage by design, because the group w/ tank approach is simply less efficient than other combinations.
The threat system is semi-broken but you can make it work playing it properly with the encounters you choose.
You can't do everything as a GF you have to rely on other classes.
I don't think it was intended for a GF to hold 100% threat.
I mean our class is called Guardian FIGHTER not Guardian.