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Poll, possible fix for foundry issues
tipsyjason
Member Posts: 23 Arc User
Ok, so the servers are down and ive had time to think about the current foundry issues. Basically this is what we are looking at. This is a little long but actually does give a very good idea of fixing how XP is dished out in the foundry.
right now there is a cap of 2 XP bars per 4 minutes and a possible over-all cap per foundry quest.
Personally, I don't care about an XP cap per quest. What I do care about is getting hit with a time cap and end up with killing mobs that give nothing, period. This smacks of "non-progression" which is what all RPGs are about, no, I don't want to get into a "its all about story" debate because to me story IS progression. Going up to a group of mobs and killing them with no XP makes no sense any way you look at it.
So, why am I even posting this? Well, my guild has 3 people in it that came to this game with the intention of creating a lot of foundry content. They were brainstorming before they even played and one of their ideas was a 3 part campaign story, each of them doing 1 campaign. The story is about an alliance of "cults" and their "demon/slaves" invading the Sword Coast. Invasion means large forces. It was originally going to be that each campaign was going to be against each individual cult but the first change to the foundry nixed that (killing the same mobs = no xp), now this change put the entire project on hold because who the heck wants to do a foundry quest where you have to fight through 100+ mobs and get next to no XP at all for it.
So, this idea hit me.
If an XP cap is placed on foundry quests, why not add something simple to make it work so ALL mobs still give XP?
Example: if quest has 10 mobs, XP = 100%, if quest has 20 mobs, XP = 75%, if quest has 30 mobs, XP = 50% and so on. Of course you would have to then take into account "boss" type mobs which should automatically have their XP cut down anyway.
By doing it this way, you still make sure XP is not being dished out in massive proportions but also make it so people still get some kind of progression while doing an activity like killing a mob.
So, what do you guys think of this idea? Add to it, take from it...keep this thread going so PW sees it and passes it on or at least gives some feedback and what they are going to do.
right now there is a cap of 2 XP bars per 4 minutes and a possible over-all cap per foundry quest.
Personally, I don't care about an XP cap per quest. What I do care about is getting hit with a time cap and end up with killing mobs that give nothing, period. This smacks of "non-progression" which is what all RPGs are about, no, I don't want to get into a "its all about story" debate because to me story IS progression. Going up to a group of mobs and killing them with no XP makes no sense any way you look at it.
So, why am I even posting this? Well, my guild has 3 people in it that came to this game with the intention of creating a lot of foundry content. They were brainstorming before they even played and one of their ideas was a 3 part campaign story, each of them doing 1 campaign. The story is about an alliance of "cults" and their "demon/slaves" invading the Sword Coast. Invasion means large forces. It was originally going to be that each campaign was going to be against each individual cult but the first change to the foundry nixed that (killing the same mobs = no xp), now this change put the entire project on hold because who the heck wants to do a foundry quest where you have to fight through 100+ mobs and get next to no XP at all for it.
So, this idea hit me.
If an XP cap is placed on foundry quests, why not add something simple to make it work so ALL mobs still give XP?
Example: if quest has 10 mobs, XP = 100%, if quest has 20 mobs, XP = 75%, if quest has 30 mobs, XP = 50% and so on. Of course you would have to then take into account "boss" type mobs which should automatically have their XP cut down anyway.
By doing it this way, you still make sure XP is not being dished out in massive proportions but also make it so people still get some kind of progression while doing an activity like killing a mob.
So, what do you guys think of this idea? Add to it, take from it...keep this thread going so PW sees it and passes it on or at least gives some feedback and what they are going to do.
Post edited by tipsyjason on
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Nail, meet head. I stopped doing foundry quests completely because of the way the XP nerf hit. I hope they fix it soon because the foundry is half the game.
What they need to do is limit it so out of your 50 mob cap you can only spawn X of Y type of mobs (minions, etc). I mean most groups you run into in the game are packs of minions. You shouldn't ever be able to fill out a map of nothing but Ogres/Bosses. In order for an Ogre level creature to be there, make it require at least 4 packs of minions/regulars. Make it so at most you can run into 3-4 of them total on a map so the vast majority of what you're fighting is regular mobs which then it's okay to turn the XP back on since that reflects the normal world experience.
Touched on that a little with my idea where I say that boss type mobs should have their XP cut anyway since its a foundry quest. The only thing they should keep is their difficulty level.
I mean, I can see someone wanting to do a foundry quest based on something like an elemental plane instead of the real world, a place filled with demon bosses. Doesn't mean that they should reward massive XP or drop great loot. By flatting the XP and spreading it throughout all the mobs, it removes "power leveling" AND removes the horrible nerf in place at the same time. When it comes down to it, does it matter if "ogres" are limited to 4, or 40 as long as it cant be exploited?
Absolutely wrong. The content used by an author should not be forced to meet some algorithm of what you consider a balanced number of bad guys. Smaug the dragon didn't have any minions. His lair was surrounding by desolation. What kept people away from him was the tales of what he could do, no one needed to see orcs guarding him. What about an Ogre village? You think Ogres (or any other of the current boss types) live all alone among lesser beings? No, the fix has NOTHING to do with XP and that is why this is so blatantly a bad fix.
If you fill a map full of boss encounters then it's a map full of boss level challenge. If you bring a friend the bosses should get harder as your "party level" has increased and as such the "challenge rating" needs to also increase. This game wants to be based on D&D then how about we look at how D&D handles challenge rating so we can see a resolution. If a level 3 ogre is a solo challenge of hard difficulty for a single lvl 3 character then a proper Solo challenge for a GROUP of lvl 3 characters is going to be more than a lvl 3 ogre but rather a lvl 8 ogre. D&D is FULL of rules on how to handle this issue.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Exp should scale to contribution to kill. If enemies cannot fight back consistently, then they need to dodge bug and regenerate to full or even teleport to the player. If the risk of the fight is high, the reward should also be high. If the risk is not there, but the body count is high, the reward should be low.
The system is already in place, the reward for minions < standard < brute < elite (something like that). I think there's just a desire for checks-and-balances to prevent exploitative behaviors so we can get our deserved exp (and items/gold). What the right checks-and-balances are, I'm not sure. I believe it's going to come in the form of exploitative behavior prevention later and stay an exp cap for now.
Oddly, the whole exp argument for the foundry feels irrelevant to me because the rate of exp doesn't effect the end game, only how fast the players get there. If players could exploit grind end game items from foundry missions, I'd be worried.
Also, on the topic of making a map: IMO, the amount of exp you receive from the foundry shouldn't dictate whether or not you make a map, unless you are trying to exploit your own maps. I'm not saying you are, but whether or not you make awesome content is up to you, not the exp your mission gives. I would love to see the maps your guild was going to make, it would be a shame if it didn't happen because of exp.
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TL:DR in bold.
NW-DSEGBOHCC & NW-DKSTDEHFF @lunchtimenow
I would imagine he isn't since he isn't asking for an increase to the XP cap, just so that the XP is spread out per foundry quest so every mob gives something. I can understand not wanting to do foundry missions since people give a 1 star rating just because they don't get XP, and one with many mobs will more than likely get hosed with low ratings if they are getting nothing from most mobs.
I DON'T FARM.
But I do run Foundry missions, and I can tell that whatever they did, they didn't "fix" or "ease" anything insofar as gaining xp or getting loot drops in Foundry content.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
This attitude bothers me more than the xp nerf. To think the players are already so polarized in the beta that they form into "us vs them" rather than expressing to the Devs to fix it so it's fun for everyone. My highest character is level 24, the closest to a farm mission I ever played was the 10 ogres where each ogre had a name, a unique costume and was spaced apart such that you not only had to actually fight them but you had to travel between them. I played it twice, maybe.
The missions I've felt the xp nerf on? The FEATURED ones! Hidden Blade, I am slayer, Assassin Chronicles, OJ Saga, and more. I play a Trickster Rogue, I kill fast. It doesn't matter how much story you have in your quest, if there is sufficient combat I can and will hit the xp cap and stop being rewarded by your story. I've gone so far as to recreate a CRYPTIC dungeon to prove to them the XP nerf was too much as it effects even their "standard of balance".
If that lumps me in the "them" group for you that is YOUR problem. You need to identify why it is you can't have fun while letting someone else do the same. How they play doesn't impact you at all. This isn't about exploits, it's about Cryptic living up to their statement the foundry will be "Just as or more rewarding than our content".
Nothing is fun for everyone. That is the point. The Developers made a change because THEY don't want people to be able to take a foundry quest and gain 1-2 levels so THEY made a change. Its a change THEY WANT period end of story. So, how was it changed? it was changed in a way that you can do a foundry quest and end up with mobs that give ZERO XP.
THAT is the current issue. This thread was created by someone that is taking THAT issue and is giving a possible fix for it. So, who is coming in a throwing out the "OMG NO WAY PUT IT BACK TO WHAT IT WAS YOUR IDEA SUCKS!"?
Farmers are. Those expressing actual counter ideas are those that are fine with the fact that Cryptic doesn't want people gaining 60 levels in 1 day in the foundry and are giving good ideas to help make the foundry playable again to most players.
So again, my point stands.
And as I have said, you can put it back to the way it was and FIX the actual problem which wasn't people gaining too much XP but for gaining that XP without the intended challenge of the author. If the Author intended it to be easy THAT is a different issue and as such we've ALL agreed that exploit maps should be treated as a TOS violation. The idea that those who don't want to have story in their dungeon crawl not being allowed to kill, loot and move on is only coming from the players. Cryptic says "you can't farm xp and loot FASTER than intended" not "you can't farm loot and xp."
And if you think the only ones saying put it back how it was as in the Them category, perhaps your point of view on that needs to change. There is no THEM. There are only us, the players and the devs all wanting the game to be better. Just because your idea of how to reach better and the idea of others is different doesn't need to polarize you.
They stated they don't want the foundry to be a main source of XP so that is what we have to work with. If we don't work with what they want, we end up getting something few are going to like unless we can come up with ideas within their parameters that fits with more peoples ideals.
So, can you think of any other ways to improve the foundry based on what the developers are willing to allow? if not, create a poll asking who wants the old foundry way back and who doesn't instead of coming in with nothing but an argument for the old way, because we are not going to get that.
You mean like this?
My first post in this thread where I gave a substantial answer to the issue that doesn't change XP gains. Also your premise the Cryptic does not want the Foundry to be a source of XP is flawed. They have never said that at all. They said they can not allow the Foundry to be populated with exploits that allow XP gain that is "unbalanced". There is a drastic difference between wanting equitable XP for effort and advocating exploits. But hey, what should I expect from those who want to polarize the issue except to fail to read what is said, and project the "other opinion" on anyone who even sounds like they disagree.
It's great you started a poll, but your proposed "Fix" just furthers an XP limit rather than the actual issue. Difficulty of the encounters is where the problem exists. If I can bring 4 friends with me then the Ogre's should get to as well or should at least be set to the elite version we see in skirmishes and dungeons. This way when I get my Ogre level xp, I've had to put out an Ogre level of effort. The actual exploits aside the missions that caused the nerf were the "X number of mobs in one place" maps where the monsters could actually fight back. But if I bring 4 friends and I get the SAME xp I get if I'm alone but the fight is MUCH easier then you have a problem. Now if that same map that is nearly unwinnable solo ramps up to be just as nearly unwinnable in a group because now it's "X number of elite mobs in one place" or 4*"X number of mobs in one place" we won't see that form of exploitation.
A good example is the end of Hidden Blade. There is an OOC note that says something like "you can not win this fight, run". That map is geared for a single player. If you bring a friend that last encounter turns into a farm map because the fight doesn't scale. Just like most of the maps that exist currently, they stop being a challenge at all if you add even 1 additional player. A map like that suffers a playtime hit, difficulty hit, and in the end a loot/xp hit because suddenly you are clearing it too fast and hit the xp nerf. This is the stuff everyone keeps over looking in regards to why the XP nerf was horrible. Not just bad for guys who want to grind but bad for EVERYONE.
I'm only going to address the relevant part of your post, for everything else seems to be an attack. Please stop.
Except you can gain levels far faster doing "normal" Cryptic content. THAT is the point. Some people got angry that farms were more popular than their "shining jewels of literature" and cried loud enough so as to change the way the Foundry fundamentally worked. And it's hurting MORE THAN JUST FARMERS. I know of at least fifty people(those on my friends list) whom I RP with on a regular basis who won't touch the Foundry with a ten foot pole now. We're not farmers, dude. Get it through your head. We RP. But we also like to....oh, I dunno....PROGRESS?
Once you've been through the main content a couple of times, you kinda get to the point where you'd rather have another way. The Foundry was SUPPOSED to be that way. Except now it isn't.
Also, for the record, @coanunn has put forth the idea that instead of heavy-handed nerfing of rewards and spoiling things for EVERYONE, adopt a more risk-vs-reward system, which I also am squarely behind. If there's no risk, you get no reward. I'm fine with that. But if mobs can fight back.....then what's the problem? Especially when Cryptic sure doesn't mind you farming the frack out of THEIR content. Just be sure to not do in in the Foundry. Heaven forbid someone should design a more efficient way to farm than the game designers own content.
TL;DR
Mobs can't fight back, no xp. Good.
Mobs can fight? Give normal XP and drops. Good.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.