test content
  • Games
  • Social
  • Arc News
  • Support
  • Zen
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Thieves' Den

Reports Regarding Unexpected Rogue Changes

dezstravusdezstravus Member Posts: 2 Arc User
edited May 2013 in The Thieves' Den
Hey All,

We've seen a few threads lately where players are posting reports of unexpected changes to Trickster Rogue powers. After doing a detailed review of the recent code changes, we were unable to find anything that alluded to a change of this nature. All current data shows that no major changes were made to damage or mitigation in the way that it has been reported on the forums, but we still want to look into it and make sure.

We're attempting to look into this but as of this particular moment we're unable to procure any information that could help us identify the specific issue that is occurring.

I wanted to leave this sticky up so that players could have the opportunity to provide concrete info on the issue. If you have any data that could help us track down a potential issue with an unexpected change to Trickster Rogue powers, please feel free to report it here.

As always, the more concise and data-driven the feedback is, the more likely we will be able to identify a potential issue.
Post edited by dezstravus on

Comments

  • zedfighterzedfighter Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thank you for this Dezstravus.
    | Account Guard | | Support | | Facebook |ki7fAki.png| Twitter | | Youtube | | Cryptic Studios |
  • iy0tiy0t Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    plzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!! nerf them they were to much they so overpowered. And give some love to Great Weapon Figther its underpowered weak as hell..
  • atlantix1atlantix1 Member Posts: 74
    edited May 2013
    Duelist's Flurry not working as intended

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?212201-Duelist-s-Flurry-BUG-Not-working-as-intended
  • mechjockeymechjockey Member Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    iy0t wrote: »
    plzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!! nerf them they were to much they so overpowered. And give some love to Great Weapon Figther its underpowered weak as hell..

    Dear Devs please nerf paper, scissors are fine.

    Yours truly

    Rock
  • atlantix1atlantix1 Member Posts: 74
    edited May 2013
    iy0t wrote: »
    plzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!! nerf them they were to much they so overpowered. And give some love to Great Weapon Figther its underpowered weak as hell..

    GWF is not single target dps class, so if ya get owned by rogue 1 v 1 do not cry, cause rogue has more tools to nuke down single target..
    however, if you can spec your GWF to aoe dps/ group support build and avoid 1v1, you can be much more useful to pvp or pve group..
  • noosey85noosey85 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Have you seen what a good Control Wizard can lay out, rogues aren't overpowered, we're rewarded for close contact but this leaves us open to be slaughtered too.

    Learn to move. :p
  • noosey85noosey85 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    iy0t wrote: »
    plzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!! nerf them they were to much they so overpowered. And give some love to Great Weapon Figther its underpowered weak as hell..

    Have you seen what a good Control Wizard can lay out, rogues aren't overpowered, we're rewarded for close contact but this leaves us open to be slaughtered too.

    Learn to move. :p
  • batubabatuba Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 89
    edited May 2013
    Please people lets keep this about the actual purpose of the post

    I've noticed that duelist flurry is taking longer to place up stacks (some times 3-4 rotations to get up all 10 stacks). Also i've noticed that i some times do less dmg with bleeds at higher stacks than lower. An example would be i use DF with all 3 attacks and get 4 stacks up, it would be ticking for 5k dmg, then i do DF again and get up to 9-10 stacks and my damage will decrease to 3.5k dmg per tick. Between the first and second DF the stacks never dropped. How is it that my dmg decreases with more stacks?
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I did some testing on what actually effects the strength of the bleeds a few days ago. Each bleed stack appears to add to the total damage based on the original hit that applied it. This causes many, many problems with the actual bleed, but it does explain why you can see pretty random results and a higher stack dealing less damage. For instance, if you apply a 10 stack with 10 crits, it will do a lot more damage than a 10 stack with 5 crits. This same issue is what causes the bleed not to update correctly. If you watch the bleed yourself, you may notice that no matter what you do your bleed doesn't actually update unless you let the stack fall off completely. By update I mean you can't spam duelist's flurry to force the damage to go to maximum (IE force 10 crits). Lurkers also does not seem to update the bleed unless you apply a fresh bleed after entering lurkers.

    There may be more to this issue than what I found in 30 minutes of testing it, but these are potiential problems I found with the stacking mechanic.

    Edit: I did notice you said this was on the same stack that didn't fall off, I will do some testing to see if I can emulate the same results.
    Double Edit: I could not emulate your results. I know that if you applied the first 4 in stealth then the next set out of stealth it sometimes does weird things. Can you provide more details about exactly how you experienced doing less damage with higher stacks?
    Check out my guide to Trickster rogue DPS, the most in depth and up to date guide currently available.

    You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
  • blazing992blazing992 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Skill First strike not working.
    avatar263030_1.jpg
    "Nerf paper. Scissors are just fine. Thanks." - Rock
  • batubabatuba Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 89
    edited May 2013
    solsol1337 wrote: »
    I did some testing on what actually effects the strength of the bleeds a few days ago. Each bleed stack appears to add to the total damage based on the original hit that applied it. This causes many, many problems with the actual bleed, but it does explain why you can see pretty random results and a higher stack dealing less damage. For instance, if you apply a 10 stack with 10 crits, it will do a lot more damage than a 10 stack with 5 crits. This same issue is what causes the bleed not to update correctly. If you watch the bleed yourself, you may notice that no matter what you do your bleed doesn't actually update unless you let the stack fall off completely. By update I mean you can't spam duelist's flurry to force the damage to go to maximum (IE force 10 crits). Lurkers also does not seem to update the bleed unless you apply a fresh bleed after entering lurkers.

    There may be more to this issue than what I found in 30 minutes of testing it, but these are potiential problems I found with the stacking mechanic.

    Edit: I did notice you said this was on the same stack that didn't fall off, I will do some testing to see if I can emulate the same results.
    Double Edit: I could not emulate your results. I know that if you applied the first 4 in stealth then the next set out of stealth it sometimes does weird things. Can you provide more details about exactly how you experienced doing less damage with higher stacks?

    This was off testing on dummies in the pvp area. I would start off combat in stealth and begin placing up bleeds, they would be ticking at 5k or so with 4-5 stacks, then i'd complete the stacks up to 10 and the dmg would drop down to around 3.5k a tick. If I can fraps it I will.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    So, much testing and combat log trolling later, I have made the following discoveries:

    1. Whether or not your bleed will be a crit or not depends on whether or not the last hit of the actual flurry which applies a bleed stack was a crit or not. For whatever reason the individual bleed applications have their own crit chance, until the last one applied. After that last application the crit is locked as a boolean one way or the other. Seems buggy.

    2. I cannot make any headway on what actually contributes to the bleed damage. I have the following numbers from one data set of hits. Maybe someone better with math than me can do something useful with it. 
    [COLOR="#000000"]I did one hit of flurry , which reached 5 stacks. I am listing the hits which applied bleeds, as well as intermittent ticks. I reformatted the log output to be more legible. The first number is damage dealt, the second is true damage. Damage dealt is higher due to dummies having 0% resistance and me having fairy fire applied (Though I seem to be gaining 3% damage, not 6%. 6% of 0 defense = 3% damage?):

18:08:29.7::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,902.64,876.349
18:08:29.9::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,420.288,408.046

18:08:30.2::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,1243.7,1207.47
18:08:30.3::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,1166.13,1132.17

18:08:30.5::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,,565.789,549.31
18:08:30.5::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,1770.61,1719.04

18:08:30.8::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,,548.809,532.824
18:08:30.9::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,,1063.48,1032.51

18:08:31.3::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,1387.76,1347.34
18:08:31.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3213.27,3119.68

18:08:32.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3213.27,3119.68

Repeats 2 more times until fairy fire falls off then:

18:08:35.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3119.68,0

Repeats 6 more times then the bleed falls off. I also had 3 stacks of deadly momentum before the last application of the bleed (so +9% crit severity for a total of 109%, my 25% vorpal is working). This was a total of 15 bleed hits (5 stacks + 10 regular bleed ticks).

Also, this line appears between every "hit":
18:08:30.8::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Power,,-4.44505,0
I do not really understand what this means, but it appears to be significant.

Hopefully someone with better math skills than me can make something of this.[/COLOR]


    Edit: It occured to me that the reason it fails to update after 10 stacks is that once the stack is maxed out, your flurry hits that apply bleeds simply speed the tick timer up and reapply the currently active bleed, rather than changing the damage already being dealt. So in other words "minimalistic" coding; though it also leaves us room to take advantage of it to maximize our damage (which likely allows us to reach higher dps outputs than intended).
    Check out my guide to Trickster rogue DPS, the most in depth and up to date guide currently available.

    You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
  • poigtpoigt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 89
    edited May 2013
    Whilst I don't agree that rogues must be nerfed otherwise DOOOOoooOOOOMM!!!!1one!1!eleven!!, I do think that some changes could be made to make them a little less awesome in comparison to the other DPS classes. I would suggest increasing their stealthed damage whilst decreasing their unstealthed damage as a simple way to encourage use of the class mechanic while leaving them a little more vulnerable than they are currently.

    I hit L22 with mine yesterday. I know that's far too low to tar the whole rest of the game with it, but let me just say I have died once. Was it in combat? Nuh uh. It was because I voluntarily jumped off the moonstone mask to see what would happen two nights ago. Would it teleport me, would I die, would there be a glass wall? I had to know. I found out and dealt with the results. But the point is I chose to do it. So far in solo, group, and a few cloaktower runs I haven't even come close to death. Skirmish was a bit tougher but I was very low level, inexperienced with the game engine, and low on heal pots. My wiz, on the other hand appears much less 'safe' - but it feels about where the rogue should be. My GWF on the other hand got rerolled at L4 because in comparison to those two it was underwhelming and needed more healing than the other two combined. My cleric (that I replaced the GWF with) was dropping mobs faster.

    I'm just saying a little tweaking to make the balance calculations for rogue damage assume stealthed damage is what they should be doing and that unstealthed damage is clearly disadvantageous. I'm not saying nerf per se, I'm saying boost stealth, nerf normal.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Regardless of whether any of this is accurate, that is not the purpose of this thread.
    Check out my guide to Trickster rogue DPS, the most in depth and up to date guide currently available.

    You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
  • poigtpoigt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 89
    edited May 2013
    solsol1337 wrote: »
    Regardless of whether any of this is accurate, that is not the purpose of this thread.

    Quite correct, I do apologise. I have not noticed any changes to my rogue's damage output since the update. Thank you.
  • dezstravusdezstravus Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thanks all! I'm going to close this out with the conclusion that we weren't able to identify any undocumented changes that were made. If anything comes up in the future, please feel free to create a thread and we'll look into it as soon as we can.

    There are a few bug escalations in here as well - thanks for passing those along. We're actively tracking as many bugs as we can. Your patience is appreciated while we review them all! Since we're in Open Beta, the number of bug reports we are receiving far outweighs the number of bug reports we are able to review and resolve, so please understand that we may not be able to reply to every issue immediately. Thanks for taking the time to help us with this!
This discussion has been closed.