Are we healing too much?

zingarbage

So I started doing a good amount of PvE since I need some gear for Pvp. In order to do it right, I decided to spec into a pure healing build.

Like the rest of you, I was running for dear life like a six year old at Neverland Ranch. One thing I noticed, is the only people that ever really lost HPs were myself from being chased and the occasional DPS that didn't get out of the way of a big hit.

So I started backing off on heals and noticed people were staying alive from astral shield by itself. I effectively dumped astral seal, it was not needed and picked up brand of the sun instead. I then decided to re-feat and try again. I basically went back to my PvP spec except I got Warding Shield instead of Divine Advantage. I got rid of all of the passive healing stuff from the faithful tree going just far enough to get my extra foresight defense. Basically trying to focus on damage reduction instead of heals.

Going into to spellplague to test it out, I noticed a lot less aggro on myself with no drop in survival of the group. Not that I still didn't get a good amount, but it definitely helped.

Anyway, just putting this out there.

marzattakz

Yeah last night I toned down my healing in Lair of the Mad Dragon to approximate more how I healed in other games and the difference was noticable for me. Was just discussing this with a fellow guild Cleric who I've healed with in other games and we're reaching the conclusion that due to the nature of how Cleric healing works we're over-healing by a large amount. Will likely change at end game though but we'll see.

deistik

The only advantage to stacking DR rather than healing is because you don't have Righteousness sapping 40% of your DR. I can't get mad enough over this debuff honestly.

streamofsolace

While Righteousness is a mechanic, no. Without Righteousness, probably.

deistik

That's kind of what I said!! lol

I've been thinking of going into a more DR oriented build.... but I know as soon as a do, they'll get rid of Righteousness (hopefully).

bump my thread on it so everyone knows how much we clerics hate it

difinitus

So you're suggesting a fix to our threat issue by stating it's more advantageous to spec more into damage reduction, with astral shield so we heal just as well, but not as much in order to generate less threat?

oghier

For the same reason, Foresight + Soothe is the best combination of passives.

I am doing fine in T2 specced as follows:

At Wills: Brand of the Sun, Astral Seal
Encounters: Sunburst, Forgemaster's Flame, Astral Shield
Dailies: Hallowed Ground, anything
Passives: Foresight, Soothe

Most of the healing is Astral Shield. Combined with Seals and Foresight, that's almost always enough. Sunburst is to build AP in heavy add situations. Forgemaster is a flexible spell -- against critters that dispel Astral Shield, it's a heal. Against everything else, it's a nice Damage over Time that builds AP/ Div well.

Spam Brand/ Seal on everything. Keep Shield up. Use Forgemaster on cooldown for damage, or in Div mode if your shield dropped. Sunburst in add packs. You'll never be out of Divinity, Hallowed Ground will be up almost all the time, and aggro won't be quite as bad as otherwise (it's still not good, though).

You'll always have aggro issues. I stat for recovery > defense > crit > power. It works

zingarbage

oghier wrote: »

For the same reason, Foresight + Soothe is the best combination of passives.

I am doing fine in T2 specced as follows:

At Wills: Brand of the Sun, Astral Seal
Encounters: Sunburst, Forgemaster's Flame, Astral Shield
Dailies: Hallowed Ground, anything
Passives: Foresight, Soothe

Most of the healing is Astral Shield. Combined with Seals and Foresight, that's almost always enough. Sunburst is to build AP in heavy add situations. Forgemaster is a flexible spell -- against critters that dispel Astral Shield, it's a heal. Against everything else, it's a nice Damage over Time that builds AP/ Div well.

Spam Brand/ Seal on everything. Keep Shield up. Use Forgemaster on cooldown for damage, or in Div mode if your shield dropped. Sunburst in add packs. You'll never be out of Divinity, Hallowed Ground will be up almost all the time, and aggro won't be quite as bad as otherwise (it's still not good, though).

You'll always have aggro issues. I stat for recovery > defense > crit > power. It works

That is my exact setup except I don't use seal. It has worked well enough up to beating spellplague.

doomsday22k

Is using Forgemasters more a timing thing when using it in divine mode? I see it as potentially a huge agro magnet.
Does forgemasters also tick action points?

I ran an idris and another instance earlier.
I specially tried to use only astral shield to heal, with the occasional sunburst.
I totally avoided seal unless it was a 'desperate' situation for an out of position melee.

It was definitely among my more controlled boss fights without every add chasing me.
I usually pug so there is a large variety of what you get party wise.

My usual setup is sunburst, astral shield and divine glow.
Is no one else using glow on a regular basis?

xroachp

@ this moment Aim a Cleric lvl 42 an Healin = 2k but hits 900 up 2 150 :S Explayn plz how a healer Must Protect his self ....

lyaise

xroachp wrote: »

@ this moment Aim a Cleric lvl 42 an Healin = 2k but hits 900 up 2 150 :S Explayn plz how a healer Must Protect his self ....

Same problem at this lvl - was in Grey Wolf Den. Basically one/two shotted - dead in 1 second.

nvmbanelings

lyaise wrote: »

Same problem at this lvl - was in Grey Wolf Den. Basically one/two shotted - dead in 1 second.

i'm not at "that" level yet, but, look at divinity AS, foresight and talents. while standing in it, you get something ridiculous like 40% damage reduction, iirc; more with hallowed ground down.

clerics seemed to get about ten times better at level 50.

octopusbreadguy

Astral Shield is WAY too strong, the rest of our kit is probably too weak/aggro intensive.

mare985

im lvl42 at the moment and thi is my setup

At Wills: Brand of the Sun, Astral Seal
Encounters: Sun Burst, Forgemaster's Flame, health basin
Dailies: Hallowed Ground, guardian
Passives: Foresight, Healer's Lore

So far as i noticed Astral seal is especially good if in team with TR not so much with guardians but good thing about it is that u don't need to worry about agro.
Health basin also good with or without divinity if u need instant quick fix a bit agro but not so much with a GWF or TR they wont bother u.
Flame now that's my favorite when everyone is close by and i always try to trow it on those bigger mobs like hulks and such so it can run its course completely. Always use it with divinity. Not sure but the actual target doesn't react to it the add in a boss fight do but even they not always not unless u use it on a boss. Didnt do much testing there.
Now sun burst that's ur agro use it once even if its to only heal and u become prime target for every enemy there even the boss and it sticks for a long time. i rarely use it in divinity only when going solo to defend but then i have different power set this is for team play, just because ppl don't like it when i knock the enemy away. i thought of switching it out but when u have a team with bad crowd control its extremely useful. just use dodge to jump in the middle of the fighting, burst, then use dodge to jump out. then run around till stamina builds up. Course that only works if there are no archers. if need be ill place a basin on top of the melee while im running around to keep them healthy.
We are always going to get agro only depends is it a few stranglers or will everyone chase us.

sonkite

How you heal ppl who kite boss or other adds with this build on encounters when all ground red from boss or adds abilities? Do you say to ppl - hey guys stay all in one palce and take all dmg from encounters?
I start in heroic with Sun Burst, Astral Shield and Bastion of health. But not all party members can stay al ltime in your aoe healing radius. And you spend bastion of health for ppl who go far away from. So now i remake my build and on bosses only my build - Healing Word (hot for tank or for kiting ppl) and astral shield with bastion for ppl who can stay together. Sun burst healing nothing, and dmg nothing (1-1.5 k dmg when partie members have 22-25k hp) you can use this spell only for gather daily energie. Builds what you posting here you can use only in easy dungeons or in static parties.

evileye0420

As a level 40 Cleric Ive run a pure healing build. I too have started to focus more on improving the defense of my party and definitely have healed less and thus generated less aggro. However, Im so used to healing while kiting at this point that even when I do draw aggro I just run circles around the tank till he picks them up while constantly dropping Sun Burst and occasionally stopping to shoot out a big heal or a Divine stream. The only huge drawback to this method is that I run through like 20 or 30 potions per instance. Ive considered working Chains back into my ability list but that would get rid of Bastion which, at times, can be a life saver. It might make it easier to kite though...

jarlax1

I took a different approach and hybrid out my traits, I don't think I have a full tree in anything. I use the at-will that grants temp hp on the third strike, my astral seal grants -5% damage reduction on target as well as 10% increased healing, I am granted +10 increased healing for anyone with temp hp + I use healers lore for an additional 15% = 35 % healing increase. Stand in Astral shield for -10 % more damage reduction. My weapon enchant stack 5% damage reduction and stacks 3 times to add another 15 % reduction and my armor enchant "lesser" reflects 2% of incoming damage back to the attacker all the time.

What I noticed is a lot of the adds do high damage from combat advantage "behind you", another problem I had is while kiting melee have a hard time killing anything due to combat animations. I have healing word, AoE heal and astral shield. Specced to grant a recovery buff on using encounter powers % chance, % health increase, crits proc AoE heals for 15 %, group gets 5% of my stats ++ healing multiple targets. I put one point in cleanse and 4 points in building devine power, as well as building devine power on encounter CD's and building devine power on non- damage abilities. The reason for healing word is this, it builds a TON of DP and with the healing increases its actually pretty good.

Now, I turn and face tank adds that agro me with :

30 % damage reduction from armor + 30% damage reduction from abilities = 60% +4% deflect bonus
10% heal increase from seal + 10% heal increase from temp Hps = 20% healing increase "as long as your attacking not kiting"

What I found is that with a 60% defence bonus " you can add more debuffs and lose heals" and with a 20% healing increase, using Devine shield as a daily I stand there and turn or move to keep mobs in front of me "trash" and let the melee just kill them without running .... they kill the adds so much faster that I actually take less damage this way, or its easier at least.

sonkite

for daily i take - Hammer and Flaming strike, much beter than Guardian Angel (hit just 1 target and healing for 3-5k health) Hallowes ground - your party members can use it just 50% (or less) of time duration, same situation like with aoe healing in dynamic battles (Deagon, Wolf, Dread Vault on last boss etc).
You all know most big trouble in every dungeons its not a boss, its - adds. Many, many, many adds which do much dmg and using stun silence or knocking abilities. With flaming strike you kill adds and stun them for short time, with Hammer you can did a lot of dmg for 1 target and knock, avoid stun knocking or other controls.

redeclipze

jarlax1 wrote: »

I took a different approach and hybrid out my traits, I don't think I have a full tree in anything. I use the at-will that grants temp hp on the third strike, my astral seal grants -5% damage reduction on target as well as 10% increased healing, I am granted +10 increased healing for anyone with temp hp + I use healers lore for an additional 15% = 35 % healing increase. Stand in Astral shield for -10 % more damage reduction. My weapon enchant stack 5% damage reduction and stacks 3 times to add another 15 % reduction and my armor enchant "lesser" reflects 2% of incoming damage back to the attacker all the time.

What I noticed is a lot of the adds do high damage from combat advantage "behind you", another problem I had is while kiting melee have a hard time killing anything due to combat animations. I have healing word, AoE heal and astral shield. Specced to grant a recovery buff on using encounter powers % chance, % health increase, crits proc AoE heals for 15 %, group gets 5% of my stats ++ healing multiple targets. I put one point in cleanse and 4 points in building devine power, as well as building devine power on encounter CD's and building devine power on non- damage abilities. The reason for healing word is this, it builds a TON of DP and with the healing increases its actually pretty good.

Now, I turn and face tank adds that agro me with :

30 % damage reduction from armor + 30% damage reduction from abilities = 60% +4% deflect bonus
10% heal increase from seal + 10% heal increase from temp Hps = 20% healing increase "as long as your attacking not kiting"

What I found is that with a 60% defence bonus " you can add more debuffs and lose heals" and with a 20% healing increase, using Devine shield as a daily I stand there and turn or move to keep mobs in front of me "trash" and let the melee just kill them without running .... they kill the adds so much faster that I actually take less damage this way, or its easier at least.

Bastion or Sunburst?

xadfrost

doomsday22k wrote: »

Is using Forgemasters more a timing thing when using it in divine mode? I see it as potentially a huge agro magnet.
Does forgemasters also tick action points?

I ran an idris and another instance earlier.
I specially tried to use only astral shield to heal, with the occasional sunburst.
I totally avoided seal unless it was a 'desperate' situation for an out of position melee.

It was definitely among my more controlled boss fights without every add chasing me.
I usually pug so there is a large variety of what you get party wise.

My usual setup is sunburst, astral shield and divine glow.
Is no one else using glow on a regular basis?

Astral Shield, Divine Glow and Sunburst, Hallowed Ground and Flame Strike is probably the most used abilities for T2 dungeons. Combine it with Foresight and maybe Healer's Lore and some decent feats and you got yourself a pretty solid setup.

redeclipze wrote: »

Bastion or Sunburst?

Sunburst - it gives a huge amount of action points and you can use it more often than bastion (more foresight buff uptime). Besides, Sunburst can help with knockbacks.

doomsday22k

xadfrost wrote: »

Sunburst - it gives a huge amount of action points and you can use it more often than bastion (more foresight buff uptime). Besides, Sunburst can help with knockbacks.

It's also a huge agro magnet due to the heal component.
More often than not I will slot Forgemasters instead and only use it as DPS, or as the divine version to heal in a required situation.
I put sunburst in on the fights where I know I will need a significant knockback.

yoichinoyumi

If you are running with 2 cleric, sooth is pretty useless. You wil get aggro one way or another, might as well put the passive into something else like healer's lore.