Okay. Let me preface this by saying I do not feel that dungeons need to be easier, or simpler.
I also believe that adds with some bosses certainly have their place. But there are too many.
There are a lot of bosses in this game that have fantastic abilities. Dodging Chartifilax's poison sprays, explosions, and zones all the while being snared by little imp adds was hectic and fantastic. Some of the bosses in the Hotenow area are great -- dropping those AoE meteors in the correct position, and finding a proper place to stand to avoid cc shooting out of the ground is all a lot of fun.
So my question is: Why do these boss fights need adds as well? Boss mechanics are what give a MMO a change of pace. My experience has been that bosses themselves aren't the real threat. For example, fighting Idris was entertaining for the most part -- positioning to avoid being dazed and trying to maintain maximum uptime on the boss was fun. But Idris wasn't the threat in this boss fight. Her adds were.
Why can't the boss mechanics be more dangerous, and slim down the number of adds a boss will spawn? The damage of boss mechanics can be tuned upwards to keep the overall difficulty of the encounter the same.
Really....REALLY?! This is what you complain about? Too many adds?! ****ing hell, what happened to MMO players. Do you really want every mmo to be 100% identical
I mean no offense, but you lack both imagination and experience it seems. There are hundreds of ways to make encounters difficult without add spawns. I started typing them out, but realized how long that would take. In my experience, both eq1 and eq2 were excellent at making difficult fights without addspawn, and even when there were adds, it wasn't necessarily about the waves of them.
Exactly, when the only dynamic to a boss is wave after wave of add, and the boss has nothing but easily avoidable attacks, it makes it silly. To me the only reasons they have it set up the way it is, is because they didn't have knowledge on how to make a boss challenging. The other reason is they need you to buy their ****ing money sinks such as res scrolls (which were supposed to be an item drop...lol wonder why they changed that), and their health stone. These Chinese F ucktards don't give two ****s about making a fun game, they just want to see how much money they can suck out of you before you say **** this and go play something else. Personally I'm just waiting for EQNext because at least with all their flaws they know how to make a game that isn't centered around peoples PVP *****ing, and makes boss fights challenging and fun.
This game is a cluster**** if I've ever seen one. It's not hard, but rather like juggling 4 or 5 chainsaws. Endless adds that will kill you, vs taking the time to cast a daily and die in the red. What a fantastic set of choices I have! I had several bad groups who could not complete the last boss of the dungeon. I don't care enough to invest in finding a guild either because I already raid in another game. I've tried a handful of pwe games and haven't enjoyed any of them. Why I thought this game would be different was beyond me.
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gornonthecobMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 421Arc User
edited July 2013
This thread and others like it need to remain at the top of the list. THIS is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. THIS needs to be fixed. THIS is not a boss. This is a player blender. Just add 5 PC's and season to perfection.
jhaikonenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited July 2013
Hmm.. Let CW deal with it all? You know the CW builds are mostly area dps focusing on crit/power and CW has 1 encounter (steal time) to disable large number of adds for a while + daily to do the same, so how are they supposed to control 25 adds constantly? I just can't figure it out O_o Also the funny thing is that they all attack you, if you just pop the damage...
Also the adds tend to spawn over the map, making the controlling harder. Oh, and if your only answer is "the CW does not know how to play" - feel free to post a demonstration video with good quality + some commentary on it, if YOU know how it's done. You just can't.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I wish they would add more adds... Addition is fun!
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kellian11Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Not a whole lot you can do about lazy and unimaginative game design other than come here and call them out on it. I'm sure this topic was brought up during beta and, well, it's still here.
It's rather amusing to clear out an entire dungeon to get to the boss, see nobody around the boss, then be jumped by endless minions. Can anyone say immersion breaking?
As someone else pointed out there are games that are 10 years older than this that did difficult content well and better (EQ and EQ2 come to mind). Just throwing adds at players is, simply stated, a lazy way to go about it.
Boss adds need dramatic hp reductions. Add swarms are fine. 40 trolls with the same hp as the trolls you fight 2 at a time earlier in the dungeon is a ****ing dumb encounter.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have two chars. A DC and a CW. Remove adds and they are useless. Support class don't have anything (interesting) to do without adds. If you don't like them, roll a support class, it's a lot of fun!
I've been playing as a rogue so this is from a melee point of view, I must say I do enjoy the combat when QUESTING.
However their system for the dungeon/skirmish boss fights is just stupid especially for the last fight of the dungeon/skirmish. Hmmm how can we make this dungeon boss fight more hard I KNOW throw a never ending stream of adds into the fight that you can barely hurt . Perfect world can you at least put a cap on how many adds can be in the fight at any given time. Or summon a specific amount of adds only when the boss hits a % health level or something.
As is currently is I don't get any opportunity to ya know HIT THE BOSS due to the need of killing the adds lest the group be overwhelmed. PWE also compound the problem by putting the high HP mobs into the fight. So it takes whole minutes to kill just one. By the time that's done theres another 4 spawned. Then you have to factor into it that those 5 or so high hitpoint mobs also throw down dozens of red spots all over the place in addition to the bosses red spots. If the adds were just mobs with low hitpoints. It would be a hell of a lot more doable.
Is it any wonder I end up running round in circles spamming the potion button while not getting to attack anything whatsoever because EVERY mob has like 4 red circles and cones and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> under it at all times.
Perfect World I submit this to you. Adds that are governed by rules and are part of a boss mechanic and are used with a purpose are fun and acceptable. Adds that are just thrown in by the bucketful constantly whenever a RNG decides to do it is not fun and is frustrating as all hell, its certainly not anything to do with strategy its just chaos and pointless. Just give people ability to kill the adds and then dps the boss a bit before you throw another 20 adds into the fight.
Sorry for rant but man the boss fights really peeve me off as they currently stand. PWE realy needs to look into it and fix it IMO. As it seriously sucks the fun right out of the game or at least the dugeon itself. *shudders* don't even want to imagine what the add spawn rate would be like for a raid type environment.
"I have two chars. A DC and a CW. Remove adds and they are useless. Support class don't have anything (interesting) to do without adds. If you don't like them, roll a support class, it's a lot of fun!" posted by diogene
Adds are fine no one is really debating that I don't think and certainly it gives certain chars other jobs to do which also leads to developing strategies. I think the problem is in how many adds they spawn into the fights, its just ridiculous.
At the very least they should be spawning adds at certain points like every X% of the bosses health. Not spawning them every 10 seconds regardless of what's currently already running around the map. It causes complications especially to melee classes, when theres like 5 red spots under every single mob in the field.
If they just lesson their spawns, make the spawns able to be killed faster or add some scripts to determine if more adds are necessary it would make dungeons and skirmishs better.
"I have two chars. A DC and a CW. Remove adds and they are useless. Support class don't have anything (interesting) to do without adds. If you don't like them, roll a support class, it's a lot of fun!" posted by diogene
Adds are fine no one is really debating that I don't think and certainly it gives certain chars other jobs to do which also leads to developing strategies. I think the problem is in how many adds they spawn into the fights, its just ridiculous.
At the very least they should be spawning adds at certain points like every X% of the bosses health. Not spawning them every 10 seconds regardless of what's currently already running around the map. It causes complications especially to melee classes, when theres like 5 red spots under every single mob in the field.
If they just lesson their spawns, make the spawns able to be killed faster or add some scripts to determine if more adds are necessary it would make dungeons and skirmishs better.
Well they already removed some adds from many bosses. And it's now harder than it used to be. As a CW, i could permastun adds with singularity/shield/icy ground/steal time. As a DC, i could pop the daily every 10s-15. Now it's not possible anymore. Adds start wandering in the arena (CW), and my team has to use more potions because i can't use divine armor as much as i used to be able to (DC). The more adds the better. They are easy to maintain under control, as long as there is enough of them. Remove half of them and it's a pain. It's not a joke. Less adds just make boss fights harder.
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milkbonedogMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Is it any wonder I end up running round in circles spamming the potion button while not getting to attack anything whatsoever because EVERY mob has like 4 red circles and cones and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> under it at all times.
I have a TR too so I feel your pain. TRs are good at single target DPS but in these fights all I do is run around avoiding the HUGE red circles and cones. I understand that I should have to move and avoid stuff during a boss fight, but I also need to do some dps and to do that I have to stand near the mob unless I just become a permastealth range rogue.
The other problem with all the adds is you have no idea what you are hitting most of the time. On top of that, there is some type of auto target in the game that pulls your aim all over the place. Example: In Gaunt I can't even hit the cleric because my aim always gets pulled to the spider when they are close together. They are not overlapping, just one right in front of the other and all my attacks automatically turn me toward the spider.
After the last bigger patch (the "let us make more money patch"), bosses, even mid bosses have too many adds. As an example, Karrundax (T2), the first boss (after this ridiculous fight against 4 giants, you have to pull them one by one), when the boss gets to 15% HP, they just summoned another of those giants as an add... plus all those higher (which takes a minute to kill, in the same time 4 new adds spawn) and lower adds, it's getting IMPOSSIBLE with the given Gear Score. I have 2k above the recommended GS...
Or the last boss of Grey Wolf Den, same thing here, those black wolf adds (which respawn every 5 seconds or so) can one hit and kill a 11k CW or Cleric, even a Tank just eats 3-4 hits from them. They are stronger than the boss itself! Just as if some brainless heroin junkie made the "fixes" for the bosses.
I think they never play the stuff themself, they just release <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, let it stay for weeks as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and maybe fix it if enough people complain. Or after enough people leaved the game.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2013
This is what I think of during a lot of the "boss" fights in Neverwinter...
I agree, too many adds. If it were normal minion level adds I would be OK with it. A group can down those and refocus on the boss if needed. But when you spawn many elite adds that have abilities (like charges or leaps) it gets really difficult to ignore them. The group gets overwhelmed way too fast. No point in killing them because by the time you kill one wave another respawns infinitely.
I like to call this "lazy dev syndrome." Instead of creating meaningful and challenging content that takes strategy (using the environment, dodging and avoiding attacks, etc) and coordination, they make fights insanely difficult via tons of adds streaming in.
CW's can't control this number of adds effectively (unless you have 2) and a DC has a hard time healing because he's constantly dodging adds. GF's can't tank that many adds because they don't have enough taunts to keep agro.
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durandurahanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Every epic dungeon is too difficult for minimum gear score, it even impossible. So it clearly a lie number displaying in queue window.
Too much adds? Yes. The boss is not being a boss in a boss fight, the adds were.
The difficult level between T1 dungeons and T2 dungeons is as between riding bicycle and flying helicopter ... It's just too steep.
There are some dungeons with a strategy to handle adds. E.g. pirate king, where the adds can be pushed or kocked down the cliff. However, the worst T2 dungeons is imho frozen heart. This dungeon is just a joke and needs to be re-designed.
However, the worst T2 dungeons is imho frozen heart. This dungeon is just a joke and needs to be re-designed.
All mobs before 1rst boss can be knocked off. First boss is too long, yes. Than between 1 and 2 boss all trash can be knoked again. Zerg 2-nd boss. Than simply run to last boss and die to skip almost all trash. Kill crystalls, kill rest trash, zerg last boss and loot t1 bound garbage from dd chest
BTW, don't even noticed difference between t1 and t2 instances, exept additional HP of mobs.
All mobs before 1rst boss can be knocked off. First boss is too long, yes. Than between 1 and 2 boss all trash can be knoked again. Zerg 2-nd boss. Than simply run to last boss and die to skip almost all trash. Kill crystalls, kill rest trash, zerg last boss and loot t1 bound garbage from dd chest
BTW, don't even noticed difference between t1 and t2 instances, exept additional HP of mobs.
Tried to zerg the last Boss three times in different premade PUGs. Failed all three times, though using the known strategy ...
imho Boss fights are too difficult for the average player with T1 equip. T2 dungeons should not be there to challenge perfect skilled and already T2 equipped group that farms for AD.
You sarcastic ****ers talking about Control Wizards and Great Weapon Fighters don't really get it.
Many end bosses, specifically dragons such as in Mad Dragon or Karrundax, there's infinite adds. You can never kill them fast enough because soon as they die, they instantly respawn. There isn't enough CC in the game even on a CW to continuously CC 2 harder mobs and 4 regular mobs especially when they are ranged and elite (meaning they don't just flop over dead). You can't even really tank them very well because of the range which basically means the Cleric is going to have to tank them and just deal with them banging on him the entire fight.
Other fights where you can kill the adds are perfectly fine, or two smaller adds keep coming (such as Vault and the two intellect devourers that constantly spawn) because those are manageable situations. The periods on bosses where they summon adds and you deal with them and they go down is perfectly fine as well (and can be quite challenging).
Having instantly respawning adds is a bit absurd however and just makes certain fights/dungeons impossible to do if your group isn't on the top of their game.
actually one group of us did mad dragon... we finished without a cw.. ofcourse longer and harder.. but It worked out.
the gwf was on the boss... i as a dc tended to draw the lot to me.. which I am totally not that excited about... but the group stuck together the 4 of us while the gwf was on his own... i healed the 4... and we finished... i burned a lot of pot.. but better than dead.
The main thing is keeping the adds away from the one taking down the boss...and don't expect the cleric to be on hand to heal you.. be around the cleric for the heals cause they are drawing in the most of the adds...
also throw a astral seal or ff once in a while to heal the gwf.. but if he knows what he's doing then you guys should be fine to stick with the dc...
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bonusitemMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited September 2013
I totally agree. Every single boss (whether in solo play or in dungeons) has the same mechanic... endless add spawns. That is NOT fun. Being a cleric and getting overrun by mobs on every boss fight just stinks.
Why even have the option to spec for lower aggro on a cleric when you just pop a heal and it all comes after you anyway? What's the point?
Difficulty should not be base solely on the quantity of (i.e. infinite) adds.
I'm afraid that thread necroscopy is something we cannot have around here, we don't want lots of little vampire threads running around, so I'll just close this one quietly before it gets itself into trouble. Feel free to create new threads, just please, don't resurrect the dead.
Comments
Really....REALLY?! This is what you complain about? Too many adds?! ****ing hell, what happened to MMO players. Do you really want every mmo to be 100% identical
Exactly, when the only dynamic to a boss is wave after wave of add, and the boss has nothing but easily avoidable attacks, it makes it silly. To me the only reasons they have it set up the way it is, is because they didn't have knowledge on how to make a boss challenging. The other reason is they need you to buy their ****ing money sinks such as res scrolls (which were supposed to be an item drop...lol wonder why they changed that), and their health stone. These Chinese F ucktards don't give two ****s about making a fun game, they just want to see how much money they can suck out of you before you say **** this and go play something else. Personally I'm just waiting for EQNext because at least with all their flaws they know how to make a game that isn't centered around peoples PVP *****ing, and makes boss fights challenging and fun.
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Also the adds tend to spawn over the map, making the controlling harder. Oh, and if your only answer is "the CW does not know how to play" - feel free to post a demonstration video with good quality + some commentary on it, if YOU know how it's done. You just can't.
It's rather amusing to clear out an entire dungeon to get to the boss, see nobody around the boss, then be jumped by endless minions. Can anyone say immersion breaking?
As someone else pointed out there are games that are 10 years older than this that did difficult content well and better (EQ and EQ2 come to mind). Just throwing adds at players is, simply stated, a lazy way to go about it.
I take a GF every time for Frozen Heart. The boss is a breeze with one.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
da fudge did i just read??
However their system for the dungeon/skirmish boss fights is just stupid especially for the last fight of the dungeon/skirmish. Hmmm how can we make this dungeon boss fight more hard I KNOW throw a never ending stream of adds into the fight that you can barely hurt . Perfect world can you at least put a cap on how many adds can be in the fight at any given time. Or summon a specific amount of adds only when the boss hits a % health level or something.
As is currently is I don't get any opportunity to ya know HIT THE BOSS due to the need of killing the adds lest the group be overwhelmed. PWE also compound the problem by putting the high HP mobs into the fight. So it takes whole minutes to kill just one. By the time that's done theres another 4 spawned. Then you have to factor into it that those 5 or so high hitpoint mobs also throw down dozens of red spots all over the place in addition to the bosses red spots. If the adds were just mobs with low hitpoints. It would be a hell of a lot more doable.
Is it any wonder I end up running round in circles spamming the potion button while not getting to attack anything whatsoever because EVERY mob has like 4 red circles and cones and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> under it at all times.
Perfect World I submit this to you. Adds that are governed by rules and are part of a boss mechanic and are used with a purpose are fun and acceptable. Adds that are just thrown in by the bucketful constantly whenever a RNG decides to do it is not fun and is frustrating as all hell, its certainly not anything to do with strategy its just chaos and pointless. Just give people ability to kill the adds and then dps the boss a bit before you throw another 20 adds into the fight.
Sorry for rant but man the boss fights really peeve me off as they currently stand. PWE realy needs to look into it and fix it IMO. As it seriously sucks the fun right out of the game or at least the dugeon itself. *shudders* don't even want to imagine what the add spawn rate would be like for a raid type environment.
/***********************************************************************
Adds are fine no one is really debating that I don't think and certainly it gives certain chars other jobs to do which also leads to developing strategies. I think the problem is in how many adds they spawn into the fights, its just ridiculous.
At the very least they should be spawning adds at certain points like every X% of the bosses health. Not spawning them every 10 seconds regardless of what's currently already running around the map. It causes complications especially to melee classes, when theres like 5 red spots under every single mob in the field.
If they just lesson their spawns, make the spawns able to be killed faster or add some scripts to determine if more adds are necessary it would make dungeons and skirmishs better.
Well they already removed some adds from many bosses. And it's now harder than it used to be. As a CW, i could permastun adds with singularity/shield/icy ground/steal time. As a DC, i could pop the daily every 10s-15. Now it's not possible anymore. Adds start wandering in the arena (CW), and my team has to use more potions because i can't use divine armor as much as i used to be able to (DC). The more adds the better. They are easy to maintain under control, as long as there is enough of them. Remove half of them and it's a pain. It's not a joke. Less adds just make boss fights harder.
I have a TR too so I feel your pain. TRs are good at single target DPS but in these fights all I do is run around avoiding the HUGE red circles and cones. I understand that I should have to move and avoid stuff during a boss fight, but I also need to do some dps and to do that I have to stand near the mob unless I just become a permastealth range rogue.
The other problem with all the adds is you have no idea what you are hitting most of the time. On top of that, there is some type of auto target in the game that pulls your aim all over the place. Example: In Gaunt I can't even hit the cleric because my aim always gets pulled to the spider when they are close together. They are not overlapping, just one right in front of the other and all my attacks automatically turn me toward the spider.
Or the last boss of Grey Wolf Den, same thing here, those black wolf adds (which respawn every 5 seconds or so) can one hit and kill a 11k CW or Cleric, even a Tank just eats 3-4 hits from them. They are stronger than the boss itself! Just as if some brainless heroin junkie made the "fixes" for the bosses.
I think they never play the stuff themself, they just release <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, let it stay for weeks as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and maybe fix it if enough people complain. Or after enough people leaved the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wl_uQOABxg
Not every boss needs to have a ton of adds.
If devs mixed it up a bit the fights with adds could be seen as interesting instead of more of the same.
I like to call this "lazy dev syndrome." Instead of creating meaningful and challenging content that takes strategy (using the environment, dodging and avoiding attacks, etc) and coordination, they make fights insanely difficult via tons of adds streaming in.
CW's can't control this number of adds effectively (unless you have 2) and a DC has a hard time healing because he's constantly dodging adds. GF's can't tank that many adds because they don't have enough taunts to keep agro.
Too much adds? Yes. The boss is not being a boss in a boss fight, the adds were.
There are some dungeons with a strategy to handle adds. E.g. pirate king, where the adds can be pushed or kocked down the cliff. However, the worst T2 dungeons is imho frozen heart. This dungeon is just a joke and needs to be re-designed.
All mobs before 1rst boss can be knocked off. First boss is too long, yes. Than between 1 and 2 boss all trash can be knoked again. Zerg 2-nd boss. Than simply run to last boss and die to skip almost all trash. Kill crystalls, kill rest trash, zerg last boss and loot t1 bound garbage from dd chest
BTW, don't even noticed difference between t1 and t2 instances, exept additional HP of mobs.
Tried to zerg the last Boss three times in different premade PUGs. Failed all three times, though using the known strategy ...
imho Boss fights are too difficult for the average player with T1 equip. T2 dungeons should not be there to challenge perfect skilled and already T2 equipped group that farms for AD.
actually one group of us did mad dragon... we finished without a cw.. ofcourse longer and harder.. but It worked out.
the gwf was on the boss... i as a dc tended to draw the lot to me.. which I am totally not that excited about... but the group stuck together the 4 of us while the gwf was on his own... i healed the 4... and we finished... i burned a lot of pot.. but better than dead.
The main thing is keeping the adds away from the one taking down the boss...and don't expect the cleric to be on hand to heal you.. be around the cleric for the heals cause they are drawing in the most of the adds...
also throw a astral seal or ff once in a while to heal the gwf.. but if he knows what he's doing then you guys should be fine to stick with the dc...
Why even have the option to spec for lower aggro on a cleric when you just pop a heal and it all comes after you anyway? What's the point?
Difficulty should not be base solely on the quantity of (i.e. infinite) adds.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of Perfect World Entertainment, or Cryptic Studios
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