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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Militia Barracks

[GWF] Armor Specialization and Sentinel's Aegis increase Damage Reduction by ZERO

terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013 in The Militia Barracks
EDIT: Read the post on second page, feats are working, character sheet is not getting updated!



So, I decided to do a respec to try a bit different sentinel build, here is the story with pictures, step by step, all in full screen so you can see the times and that I'm not making things up:

1) http://terhix.com/armor/original_build.png - my starting point
2) http://terhix.com/armor/original_def.png - 2280 defense, 33 AC with Master at Arms
3) http://terhix.com/armor/original_dr.png - 40.5% damage reduction

Fun part!

4) http://terhix.com/armor/respec.png - respec complete!
5) http://terhix.com/armor/new_def.png - fresh after respec, 2280 defense, 28 AC without Master at Arms
6) http://terhix.com/armor/new_dr.png - 38% damage reduction, lost 2.5% from AC loss and nothing else
7) http://terhix.com/armor/new_build_armor_spec.png - go go 3/3 Armor Specialization...
8) http://terhix.com/armor/new_dr_with_armor.png - ...does absolutely nothing to damage reduction.
9) http://terhix.com/armor/new_build_master_at_arms.png - 5/5 Master at Arms, spent powers to get weapon master and determination slotted, don't look at other powers :P
10) http://terhix.com/armor/new_dr_with_master.png - AC up to 33, damage reduction up to 40.5%, WAI.
11) http://terhix.com/armor/new_build_final.png - final build with Sentinel's Aegis...
12) http://terhix.com/armor/new_dr_final.png - ...resulting in another amazing increase of damage reduction by zero.

TL;DWSS (too long, didn't watch screenshots) - two GWF's feats, one increasing effectiveness of AC and Defense by 15%, the other increasing effectiveness of Defense by 20%, do nothing (well, Sentinel's Aegis does give a hot on Restoring Strike, but that's that).
Post edited by terhix on
«1

Comments

  • teethxteethx Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    They should have not even released the **** GWF, it is broken, if you can justify asking us to pay money in game while letting us play in this beta you better have a working product.

    They have time to fix exploits and threaten people with banning them but no time to correct the stuff like a whole class not working. I can grab a chunk of clay and stick a long stick in it and call it a GWF but that dont mean he is one.

    PW please address the subject of WTF is wrong and how you are going to change the GWFs... at this point I am going to leave as ESO comes out. So sad because i love the combat but I can honestly say you guys are almost up there with EA and Activation when it comes to business.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    The class as a whole is not broken, I can do dungeons just fine even in Sentinel, but this is annoying :P.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Bump for justice.
  • ceonnynceonnyn Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    OK so the same issue then with both GWF and GF. Good to know.
  • idontcomehereidontcomehere Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 156 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I think the BIGGER issue that these skills are described too vaguely, we need more useful information on the skill mechanics. Like, that +6% damage bonus from strength doesnt seem to change stats at all. We get 1% damage bonus per str after 10, so does this 6% mean we'd get 7% per strength? thats too much. Does it mean we get 1.06% per str? thats too little. GIVE US DETAILS, GIVE US DURATIONS, GIVE US PROC CHANCES...
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    idontcomehere wrote: »
    I think the BIGGER issue that these skills are described too vaguely

    You think a bigger issue to a feat not working is having a vague description? Granted, vague description is bad, but as long as it works you can empirically test how it works.
  • teethxteethx Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    The class as a whole is not broken, I can do dungeons just fine even in Sentinel, but this is annoying :P.

    The class has not identity, rogues deal better single by 5x or more, cw cc %100 better and deal more aoe damage, GF can at-least hold agro to a point. The class is broken it has no reason to be played as of now. Once they give it a reason to be played like pretty much anything that it can do well beside stand in a group of mobs and dps until they die.

    I love the way the class plays, but you need a reason to play it beyond it looks fun and performs sub-par in ever field.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    teethx wrote: »
    The class has not identity, rogues deal better single by 5x or more, cw cc %100 better and deal more aoe damage, GF can at-least hold agro to a point. The class is broken it has no reason to be played as of now. Once they give it a reason to be played like pretty much anything that it can do well beside stand in a group of mobs and dps until they die.

    I love the way the class plays, but you need a reason to play it beyond it looks fun and performs sub-par in ever field.

    Even if all of that was true (and I honestly doubt a proper destroyer GWF can be outdpsed by a CW), damage, class role or identity is not a topic of this thread - there is plenty of those around.
  • teethxteethx Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    Even if all of that was true (and I honestly doubt a proper destroyer GWF can be outdpsed by a CW), damage, class role or identity is not a topic of this thread - there is plenty of those around.

    fair enough, my apologies.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I'm testing a destroyer build and, while my dps is higher, I do feel a lot softer. Drow assassins that used to hit me for 15XX now hit me for 20XX or it's just my imagination, a foundry quest that I could do on 2 pots at worst (sometimes with none as restoring strike and 4 piece pvp set provides plenty healing) now took me about 10, even though I do kill faster. It might be possible that this is only a display bug. Need to gather more data.
  • idontcomehereidontcomehere Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 156 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    You think a bigger issue to a feat not working is having a vague description? Granted, vague description is bad, but as long as it works you can empirically test how it works.

    Well they might be working but not actually show up in stats, i dont think the 6% damage bonus from strength changed anything in Attack/Healing. More details on the skills and better updated character sheet with skill feedback is what we need!
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    idontcomehere wrote: »
    Well they might be working but not actually show up in stats, i dont think the 6% damage bonus from strength changed anything in Attack/Healing. More details on the skills and better updated character sheet with skill feedback is what we need!

    I've checked damage on attack tooltips when I was increasing it and it did show an increase.
  • elspethtirelnwelspethtirelnw Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 200 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    It's hard for me to say with 100% certainty, but it does indeed feel as it is a bit easier to shrug off what would be otherwise painful to a DPS build while fully specced into Sentinel.

    All is for naught, however, if Cryptic doesn't resolve the poor threat generation of the tree. Even in it's rather poor state, I still enjoy it more than playing with either of the DPS trees. I've really payed for far too many respec tokens while testing viable options for the Sentinel tree...

    Thanks for taking the time to test this out.
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  • h3rflikh3rflik Member Posts: 20
    edited May 2013
    Its possiblity that the abilities work but they dont display changes in stats. Like somebody wrote, the biggest pain for me is having really bad descriptions in skills for a D&D game. We should know everything about what we pick, every little detail.

    Display bug + not working skills + bad description = perfect way to block players from proving that something dont work

    So we should start with proper skill descriptions, then we can check it out if it works as it supposed to work. Because even if you prove that Sentinel Aegis DO reduce incoming damage, it also need to pump it by the amount it is stated. Currently its really hard to prove that anything work as it should work.
    Give us skill description, I was suprised that cast time/ attack speed isnt in description of ANY ability, while its basic information. Its like I have to choose At-will as a new player, one do 200dmg other 300dmg. Without the cast time information its hard to know with one is really better, since the 200dmg one could swing 2 times fater than 300dmg one.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Okay, I did some more testing in one foundry mission, there are the wraith berserkers that upon reaching 50% hp start spamming you with same attack over and over again, which I figured would be a good way to test the reduction:

    damage.png

    I was careful not to use Daring Shout or anything else that would skew the results, it turns out the effect on DR is quite significant after all.

    On destroyer:
    1 - (1392 / 2217) = 0.3721244925575101
    1 - (1433 / 2283) = 0.372317126587823
    1 - (1424 / 2269) = 0.372410753635963

    On sentinel (with Master at Arms, Armor Spec and Sentinel's Aegis):
    1 - (1093 / 2227) = 0.5092052088010777
    1 - (1134 / 2311) = 0.5093033318909563
    1 - ((559 * 2) / 2279) = 0.5094339622641509 [ *2 to account for deflect ]

    Numbers are pretty solid and well within margin of rounding error, mitigation went up from 37.2% (which is exactly what my Character Sheet showed at the time) to 50.9% (where character sheet shows 39.7%).
  • elspethtirelnwelspethtirelnw Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 200 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Good data, it's just a shame you had to respec and pay to make such a valid point. Hopefully the devs are aware and will adjust the tooltips and w/e other issues that they can likely test better in office.
    | Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
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  • jasbinsjasbins Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
    edited May 2013
    teethx wrote: »
    The class has not identity, rogues deal better single by 5x or more, cw cc %100 better and deal more aoe damage, GF can at-least hold agro to a point. The class is broken it has no reason to be played as of now. Once they give it a reason to be played like pretty much anything that it can do well beside stand in a group of mobs and dps until they die.

    I love the way the class plays, but you need a reason to play it beyond it looks fun and performs sub-par in ever field.
    is it?
    or maybe you are not thinking correctly...
    now see, the GWF is the best class for soloing missions, you have a high survivability and a nice area damage...
    in a party, it does nothing?
    ok, gather all enemies near you and strike them!
    this is not WoW, not supposed to hold aggro, remember that...
    so you can "tank" or DPS them, as your choice...
    how is it useless?
    15.jpg

    Jasbinschek D' Forc - GWF lvl 60 8.5K GS (for now)
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    jasbins wrote: »
    is it?
    or maybe you are not thinking correctly...
    now see, the GWF is the best class for soloing missions, you have a high survivability and a nice area damage...
    in a party, it does nothing?
    ok, gather all enemies near you and strike them!
    this is not WoW, not supposed to hold aggro, remember that...
    so you can "tank" or DPS them, as your choice...
    how is it useless?

    Seriously, there is no point in arguing about that here, teethx already dropped it :).
  • h3rflikh3rflik Member Posts: 20
    edited May 2013
    Defensive GWF maybe wont be so bad. The damage reduction sems nice while you can have like 5% base +15% master at arms + 5% reflex (first lower feat in sentinels pool) + 15% bravery = 40% deflection chance. With a bit of deflection stats it would be not hard to reach point where 50% of hits do only 50% of the damage.
    I didnt see deflection severity anywhere, wonder if some gear could give that on 60 level.

    Anyway I spoted other bug in one passive skill of GWF, the weapon master one. It say it give +1.5 % critical chance per stack, up to 5 stacks. That should be 7.5% crit chance, while it clearly gives me 10% on max stacks, with would imply the real value is 2% per stack. Somebody can confirm that?
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    h3rflik wrote: »
    Anyway I spoted other bug in one passive skill of GWF, the weapon master one. It say it give +1.5 % critical chance per stack, up to 5 stacks. That should be 7.5% crit chance, while it clearly gives me 10% on max stacks, with would imply the real value is 2% per stack. Somebody can confirm that?

    I did notice it and I did write about it, yes it either gives 2% or the character sheet display for it is wrong too.

    Going to do some more dungeons on Sentinel later today, Destroyer is nice and topping charts with 20% advantage over second guy is cool and all, but I feel actually more useful on Sentinel. Also, I wouldn't be too focused on agro (though I do pack as much into dps as I can) - since if you pop daring shout and mark everything while not having agro, you essentially increase your whole party's dps by a large margin since those marks are going to stay there for full duration.
  • rasmuseprasmusep Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 53
    edited May 2013
    In your next post regarding your experience with the build, would you mind going over your spec (feats, passives, encounters etc)

    Also is it 100% confirmed that the threat components of the sentinel feats dont work?
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    rasmusep wrote: »
    In your next post regarding your experience with the build, would you mind going over your spec (feats, passives, encounters etc)

    Also is it 100% confirmed that the threat components of the sentinel feats dont work?

    I'll try to record some footage as a guide, got fraps ready, just need to wait for servers to go up.

    As for the threat feats, it's really hard to tell, they seem to be working for me but there is really no way of saying. In either case, there is just not enough threat rolled into the class to make a classic tank that would focus on defensive stats and kept agro with threat bonuses - you just have to keep doing dps.
  • rasmuseprasmusep Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 53
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    I'll try to record some footage as a guide, got fraps ready, just need to wait for servers to go up.

    As for the threat feats, it's really hard to tell, they seem to be working for me but there is really no way of saying. In either case, there is just not enough threat rolled into the class to make a classic tank that would focus on defensive stats and kept agro with threat bonuses - you just have to keep doing dps.

    Cheers alot i will look forward to it :)
  • elspethtirelnwelspethtirelnw Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 200 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    I did notice it and I did write about it, yes it either gives 2% or the character sheet display for it is wrong too.

    Going to do some more dungeons on Sentinel later today, Destroyer is nice and topping charts with 20% advantage over second guy is cool and all, but I feel actually more useful on Sentinel. Also, I wouldn't be too focused on agro (though I do pack as much into dps as I can) - since if you pop daring shout and mark everything while not having agro, you essentially increase your whole party's dps by a large margin since those marks are going to stay there for full duration.

    I feel the same way while playing a Sentinel and have always been the last to die in any party while in the spec. The downside is that the return on threat does not equal the amount of DPS you need to sacrifice. It really can't stay this way imo, but that's for another topic.
    | Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
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  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Well, there it is, super crude as I've basically no video editing software and just wanted to do it quickly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVuLqx4abs

    I'll try to get some proper dungeon footage over the weekend.
  • rasmuseprasmusep Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 53
    edited May 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    Well, there it is, super crude as I've basically no video editing software and just wanted to do it quickly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVuLqx4abs

    I'll try to get some proper dungeon footage over the weekend.

    Cheers for the run down. Am gonna see how my destroyer build holds up at lvl 60, but could easily see myself swap into this more beefy build. Look forward to hear how the dungeons go.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I was definitely pleased with the results on a destroyer build in dungeons, it just didn't feel right for my playstyle. And you can still solo with a cleric companion anyway.
  • glraemaglraema Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you're going completely defensive, is the Imposing Scrapper's Set worth it? It has defense, deflect, lifesteal and regeneration as stats. The set bonus is 1600 HP for 2 pieces and 5% defense for X seconds after using an encounter power.
    Would the healing generated by the lifesteal and regeneration be enough to generate/hold aggro? The complete set has about 1150 deflection (maybe 8-10%, I'm not sure) and 2282 defense.
  • nemesis788450nemesis788450 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    maybe increases effectiveness simply means that "the dice roll" will look at your stat 100 as it was stat 120 altough it isint, so you cant actually see it but it happens in the background?
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    nemesis788450 wrote: »
    maybe increases effectiveness simply means that "the dice roll" will look at your stat 100 as it was stat 120 altough it isint, so you cant actually see it but it happens in the background?

    Sort of, I've covered it on second page, it works, just doesn't show in character sheet. I'll make a new thread once I get my dungeon footage for a proper Sentinel guide (since this is what this thread developed into by now).
    glraema wrote: »
    If you're going completely defensive, is the Imposing Scrapper's Set worth it? It has defense, deflect, lifesteal and regeneration as stats. The set bonus is 1600 HP for 2 pieces and 5% defense for X seconds after using an encounter power.
    Would the healing generated by the lifesteal and regeneration be enough to generate/hold aggro? The complete set has about 1150 deflection (maybe 8-10%, I'm not sure) and 2282 defense.

    Deflection as a stat seems very weak for me, the point value of it is so low that even with diminishing returns defense provides better mitigation (given that 1% deflection translates to 0.5% mitigation on average). There might be more to deflect that I don't know, such as how deflects interact with crits, but for now I'm trying to not put anything of it on my gear.

    My ideal stat composition on gear would be Power, Crit and Defense for now. That might change as I do more research, I'm actually very curious about effectiveness of Power on actual damage you do, which seems to be actually quite low - it might be so that packing Armor Penentration, or a mix of Arp and Power, is the better choice. In either case, I consider the PvP armor to be actually the best deal for Sentinel for PvE since it has a healthy distribution of offensive stats and Defense and really good set bonuses. Wish there was a Tier 2 option for it.

    Now on lifesteal and regen - regen is more of a high total hp beneficial stat, while lifesteal is more for what GWF is - mitigation + dps. I might get some pieces of Necromancers / of undeath jewelery and see how that goes. If healing from it generates as much threat as damage would do, then it can be actually a very solid option!
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