The mechanics of this game produce a speed run, most damage/heals dealt concept.
"4) You are NOT a one man army. Wait for everyone. No one is going to get their name carved in stone because they are rushing ahead of everyone."
Unfortunately this is untrue as the end results display the "top" of each bracket and reward you accordingly. So rushing ahead and trying to get the most damage out, or spamming heals does indeed carve your name in stone.
"5) Take it easy. Sure if you are running with a bunch of friends the same dungeon over and over, there is no need to take the scenic route."
Exploration, and quickly might I add as the general mechanic of the game is to keep pace with those in the group..is of course a good idea as there are many "secrets" the game has in place that only those willing to find them will be successful at. (example resource pack nodes or treasure chests are often OFF the beaten trail.)
"9) (UPDATED) When to NEED/GREED/PASS. First of all this is not a rule. it's simple courtesy. You NEED when the item is for your CLASS and are looking to upgrade. How do you know if it is an upgrade? Well you don't, thanks to the silly system of unidentified items. Just be considerate. Needling on something that is RED is the issue, unless everyone in the party has agreed to do so from the start. Instead GREED or PASS on them. (It's funny that on the rare occasions that someone actually said anything in party chat, it was to argue about loot)"
Im almost scared to replie to this one as it makes me look like a not so nice guy... But the reality is that you ALWAYS need EVERYTHING as they directly translate into gold at the vendor which in turn enables you to better equip yourself down the road. The old NBG system is the "nice way to play", but as we all know...nice guys finish last. So its something to consider here also. Although I generally attempt to use a similar system when looting, its important that we take a close look at WHY people are just spamming need.
I believe this happens for 2 reasons, because of the pace of the game you rarely have time to examine items to know if its something you actually want, and the identify system for items means that that single green with the question mark on it could very well be much better than what you are using. The result? Everyone needs every single item simply to get the chance to identify the possibility of a upgrade. So my apologies to the reply on this but the NBG system only applies when everyone can SEE the stat gains of an item PRIOR to actually rolling.
finally:
1) When joining a party for whatever reason (dungeon, skirmish, PvP), loose your coolness factor and greet everyone. A simple Hello, wont diminish your reputation.
Lets face it-most people view every other being they see running around on their game window as "backdrop" and don't really impact their game play, MMO does indeed mean massive multilayer but in today's gaming community the social aspect is what people use guilds for, as its a much more isolated and distinct group of players than the general mass. The end result is that people could care less if bobby joe said hi to them while bashing down a boss, and while being social has benefits it can also have drawbacks especially in a game that regularly posts your entire user account information in everything from trade transactions to mailing to friends lists. You are wondering why this would even register as a concern for most users? Well its pretty darn easy to see if someone is off or online if you are friends with thier master account. (a system i completely disagree with mind you). as it exposes users to tracking and or possible exploitation. So to sum up this "quick reply", I agree that being social is a good practice, but you have to consider the source, the pace of the game, and its player base (as language can interfere with it too) I mean who wants to chat and attempt to be social when you get railed by the zone/party when you typo a word.
Just things to consider.
If I considered ANY one of your suggestions seriously, than I'd rather quit the game and never play any other MMO again. Fortunately, with years of experience, your mentality is actually in the minority. No one flocks behind the ******bag, no matter how decked out you are. I'd rather play with a fun group who aren't as experienced, aren't as geared, aren't as arrogant. After all this is a "game". If I owned a used car dealership, or managed a wall street boiler room, I would definitely hire your type though. But I certainly wouldn't care to hang out with you after work.
I always pass on items I don't need, other people mostly never but sometimes a couple of them pass too. Also a slow typer so I rarely say anything anyway
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clarkeuxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
I can say that the need/greed/pass DOES get better at 60 as most of the players up at 60 are experienced MMO players whether it be from WoW, SWTOR, or any other MMO and they seem to have a firmer grasp on the rolling system and the expectations people hold you to when it's in place.
"All shall burn before the hellfire I rain unto my Foes"
How do you know if it is an upgrade? Well you dont, thanks to the silly system of unidentified items.
While I agree with your post...the unidentified items are not "silly". It's a core facet of D&D to be able to identify unidentified items, although it could/should be implemented with a bit more....finesse.
While I agree with your post...the unidentified items are not "silly". It's a core facet of D&D to be able to identify unidentified items, although it could/should be implemented with a bit more....finesse.
Yes, I meant it silly in the way it is implemented in the loot system. I think only blue or better should be unidentified. Even when I NEED on the green that my class can use, I often feel bad knowing there is a good chance I won't use any of it when I see their stats.
I really wish there was a way to break down unwanted loot into crafting material, or a chance for some rank 1 enchantments.
...The main reason to play an MMO is to be social in a "virtual sense"...
I agree with most of your post, except this one line. That might be your main reason, but it's not necessarily everyone else's. I think people play MMOs for a variety of reasons. My reason is because the games that I like are all being designed around MMO play. I was perfectly happy when games used to have single-player versions. If I could play Neverwinter as a single-player game, I would. But, it's not available that way.
I'm not at all trying to disagree with anything else you have said. I completely agree that when interacting with others you should be polite, considerate and respectful. I just don't agree with the premise that the reason to play an MMO is to be social, even in a virtual sense.
Cheers.
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hbcbandit007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
bump. very true. i'd also add please don't roll need on every single item, especially when your class doesn't need it. very annoying to get no loot just because i rolled greed on everything and then have to compete with the entire party for a rare piece of gear that only i can use because everyone is rolling need.
I agree with all the points OP made, I also believe this one is big. Just because the game LETS you roll need on everything, doesnt mean you should. If you cant equip it. GREED. So frustrating losing out on rare gear to some yahoo who just wants to sell it. The game really should make it impossible to hit need on stuff you cant equip.
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pinkysansbrainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
I've never wiped due to not waiting for someone, though you're right that it does increase the chance. And it gets to be extra challenging because we're doing it with 4 people, or even 3.
If a person can't keep up to a group that is clearing trash one man down, they clearly aren't making much of an effort. I seriously don't understand how it happens, and normally just remove the person if they can't catch up in 5-10 minutes and I'm fortunate enough to have randomly gotten the leader role. Otherwise I just leave, because carrying some jerk through things isn't very fun.
I'm not talking about people who lag behind everyone else, I'm talking about people who, when the rest of the party is stopping to open a treasure chest, decide to rush ahead of the group. Not just one person, the entire group. It's not four people taking on trash mobs, as you put it. It's one person, typically the DPS (what is it with hotheads choosing DPS anyway?), running ahead of the other four members of the group, getting hammered, and then complaining because the healer is "bad".
You're talking about people who lag behind so far that it's pointless to continue with them in the party. I'm referring to crotchrockets who can't wait to get to the end of a dungeon just so they can wipe and take loot that doesn't fit their class.
The quiet thing is true.. But for the most part i've only had one out of maybe a dozen pug dungeons where people were suddenly breaking good etiquette.. For me, you shouldnt take a class based loot node if you have that class in the party, if its of your class you can take it, maybe take turns if theirs two of your class. But if everyone grabs anyones node then it automatically becomes a race..
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
First of all, I would like to point out that this post is written with the BEST intentions. I see good potential for this game, or complete disaster. I just want to make an attempt at preventing the later.
I have been playing MMOs, since....oh DIKU Muds. Yea, we're talking 25+ years. I am completely baffled and amazed at the lack of social grace in this game. It feels like the player base is completely foreign to MMOs. I know that is not true, but that is what it feels like. Whether it is a dungeon, skirmish, or PvP, there have been countless runs where no one says a single word. Not a HELLO, not a BYE, not even a "gg"! The main reason to play an MMO is to be social in a "virtual sense", even if some of us are anti-social in real life. It's ok, we all have our personal issues, but this is a place where everyone is anonymous. There are no judgments, no embarrassments, or biased first impressions based on what you look like, sound like, race, religion, etc....
So, the following may sound obvious, but I would not waste my time and post my very first thread on this forum about this issue if I wasn't having such an awful social experience.
1) When joining a party for whatever reason (dungeon, skirmish, PvP), loose your coolness factor and greet everyone. A simple Hello, wont diminish your reputation.
2) Be considerate during the encounter, to everyone. Remember that the majority of players are new, learning everything from scratch, a bit lost with every aspect of the game. Give them a break.
3) Don't stand on top of chests or cut in front of someone. It is really annoying when someone needs to move 3-4 times because every time they try to click on the chest someone stands in front of them. There is no better loot for those that open the chest first.
4) You are NOT a one man army. Wait for everyone. No one is going to get their name carved in stone because they are rushing ahead of everyone. I am not talking about "let the tank go in first" or "dont start without your healer". I mean just because you got your loot, or whatnot, dont just run and make everyone else behind scramble and/or panic about being left out.
5) Take it easy. Sure if you are running with a bunch of friends the same dungeon over and over, there is no need to take the scenic route. But if you are PUGging, which is probably 80% of all encounters, consider there might be people running this for the first time and just want to appreciate the content, not just SHIFT/DODGE/SPRINT there way through it from one fight to the next.
6) If there are certain objectives that need to be accomplished, please make sure to just spend 5 seconds and type it out in chat. "We need to collect 4 crystals while we are here" wont kill anyone to type it.
7) When all is done, for the love of all that is good in this world, say "Thank you" or "Laters" or "GG (good game)" or just anything to acknowledge that you enjoy being with others.
8) Most importantly have fun and "ALLOW" others to have fun as well, by being courteous and respectful. In the end, if you drive away players from this game because of your rudeness or lack of social skills, it is going to affect the game to the worst.
9) (UPDATED) When to NEED/GREED/PASS. First of all this is not a rule. it's simple courtesy. You NEED when the item is for your CLASS and are looking to upgrade. How do you know if it is an upgrade? Well you dont, thanks to the silly system of unidentified items. Just be considerate. NEEDing on something that is RED is the issue, unless everyone in the party has agreed to do so from the start. Instead GREED or PASS on them. (It's funny that on the rare occasions that someone actually said anything in party chat, it was to argue about loot)
Sorry to have wasted space on this forum with something so elementary. Enjoy the game everyone.
it's due to the sense of entitlement the current generation of 18-35's feel and have no problem expressing. there was a study done recently (for which i lost the link dammit) showing how baby boomers and their hippy changes (broad term, it's deeper than that) has lead to the cynical and selfish generation you see in social gaming now.
i also started with diku muds in the early 90's and i miss those days terribly.
I just finished a dungeon run with a grp where the Guard kept rolling Need on everything. He won the first Blue drop and continued to roll Need on the other two Blue drops -- winning another.
It was bad enough he couldn't play his class, but then to Need everything was just dumbfounding.
I agree with the OP 100%. I would like to say, however, that I don't always speak when in a party because I'm still getting used to the text chat within the game (which I REALLY wish was designed better, but c'est la vie).
However, one thing I want to add is that you cannot dictate how others will act, but you can control how you will. Whenever I am not speaking, I always do my best to play my chosen role effectively. i.e. if I'm tank, I always make sure to be the first in, or at least try to, so that I can the majority of the aggro so that the DPS and healers can do their jobs effectively. I always make sure to use every tool at my disposal to increase my threat so that I can KEEP that majority of that aggro. So far, I've been doing well, I think, as I have yet to be in a party, where I am not taking the most amount of damage.
Additionally, I act on the need/greed/pass exactly how I would like others to act. I only need on items that are useable and are either purple, or that I need at the moment (I.e. if I'm looking to replace my shield / sword / etc). I haven't encountered any purples, yet, but I would still only need on the ones that I could specifically use. All other items that are use-able I greed on, and I always pass on any reds.
I don't frankly care if other people in my party follow the same etiquette, but I can be satisfied knowing that I'm not being a selfish ******.
TLDR but I would guess this about people rolling NEED on blues. I can usually tell when people in are party are NEED *****s when I check out the people rolling NEED on greens they can't even use. I then proceed to roll NEED on every blue no matter what.
I hate giving people the benefit on the first blue because invariably it's one I can use and the entire party rolls NEED on my item when I have already rolled GREED on their item.
You can be screwed first and last in life if you don't do the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. There was a game that came out recently that only allowed the classes who could use an item even roll on it in the first places. Then if there was no class that rolled or could use it, everyone was allowed to roll on it.
That is the way to do it. Until then Human NEED will always occur over GREED and screw you first.
TLDR but I would guess this about people rolling NEED on blues. I can usually tell when people in are party are NEED *****s when I check out the people rolling NEED on greens they can't even use. I then proceed to roll NEED on every blue no matter what.
I hate giving people the benefit on the first blue because invariably it's one I can use and the entire party rolls NEED on my item when I have already rolled GREED on their item.
You can be screwed first and last in life if you don't do the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. There was a game that came out recently that only allowed the classes who could use an item even roll on it in the first places. Then if there was no class that rolled or could use it, everyone was allowed to roll on it.
That is the way to do it. Until then Human NEED will always occur over GREED and screw you first.
Honestly, they need a loot system like Guild Wars 2. Everyone has their own instanced loot. Problem solved.
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wanyeneqMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
I personally don't care for NBG. Not even a little. Besides everything else that was mentioned, even when I would be a beneficiary of NBG, I don't care for it. Often I feel guilty 'needing' on something that is a slight upgrade or even sidegrade, even though I do 'want' the item in question and would have no problem putting it on if I found it solo or for cheap on the player to player market. I have long been a fan of round robin within tier over straight random NBG rolls in randomly assembled groups.
With round robin, everyone often ends up with something, and often there is a good quanity of distributed loot for everyone. Every buccaneer gets their fair share. When it is lean, its lean for everyone. When its abundant, everyone reaps.
If there is a genuine need, most often something can be arranged with the person who's turn it was up that ended up with the item in question. Concerns about the ultra rare, valuable loot that would be both directly beneficial to someone present and indirectly beneficial to everyone else is given to the random seeding as to who is first in in that tier of round robin, and if a second or third or more pieces of rare, valuable loot drop, more people come away smiling than if one or two people ended up with half a dozen pieces of the 'good' loot.
If those who won a round robin rare loot don't feel they particularly need whatever it was because it doesn't directly help them, often times in my experience with it, they will privately and generously give it to the member present who it could directly benefit, but are certainly not obligated or expected to.
As far as lack of chat, I miss those days, and there was a similar discussion recently on another game's boards surrounding that issue in the larger topic of dwindling enthusiasm for [PUG] grouping. Chat isn't usually one of the more 'productive' things, so it is at least questioned if not discouraged.
Part of it is the mechanics and the interface. Combat is a lot more 'active' than in games of a decade ago, both fortunately and unfortunately. There's a lot more mouse gyrating, and a lot more beautiful button sequencing and brutal button smashing at a higher rate than what we had in say Everquest 1 when it first hit the street and for quite a few years following.
As a rogue in EQ1, I had auto-attack and then somewhere between a ten and a six second window before backstab would refresh. After a while that mob would fall over and we'd switch targets. Occassionally an evade or a duelist discipline would be tossed in. That left a lot of time to insert chat, even pretty lengthy chat if you were quick and had a common shorthand, while 'actively' fighting.
In the few games I have looked at and involved myself with lately, besides having auto-attack retired and replaced with combat abilities, we have also replaced casting time with per skill cool-downs, which means we have the opportunity to do a lot more things in the same span of time that normally were left to watching cast bars tick down. While I am sure most clerics and wizards don't miss the monotony of Complete Heal chains and Ice Comet/Garrisons Superior Sundering , the opportunity to chat a little during each of those casts is probably missed. Of course, I would be remiss if I don't also note the loss of passive defense in the more common form of block and dodge. Those were things our characters just did when they felt the time was right, now its up to you to try it, even if it might not succeed.
Dungeon challenges/mob layouts are different and mob characteristics/behavior/dynamics have evolved/mutated so you don't frequently spend a minute or more chipping away at every mob you face. Reactions in the form of good positioning and good, split second target picking are more valued than efficiency/longevity and encounter sizing/setup (or pulling) and genuine mastery of control effects for a fairly lengthy duration.
Pulling there used to be player skillset (different altogether from a character or class skillset), and now its barely more than a step in an activity being de-emphasized in anything else I've looked at since. Because it was skill it often took time to 'break into' an area or to progress to the next room in a dungeon. Of those that experienced and remember Everquest, some may claim it was feign death or a particular gray area ability like pet-pulling that enabled good pulling; but it was often far more than that, especially when non 'traditional' pulling classes were involved like bards, rogues, and enchanters in 'hard' pulls. Unless you have never been involved with an MMO, its now hard to make a bad pull in pretty much any other game I have looked at -- you either have to try to make it hard, or have simply no sense of hostile social agro because usually the clusters are small and generously spaced with roamers that either are or are not part of the static pull by design.
With the loss of pulling or truly breaking a room, there is the loss of more chat opportunity.
TL;DR
Round Robin > NBG; Combat and interface evolution is a strong contributing factor to the loss of social chat in a group..
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tristar77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
Wow, I'm glad I read this today. I didn't know the difference between need and greed. To my credit I was passing on things I couldn't use. But now I'll start using greed more appropriate
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ntawneyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
^bump^
So frustrating when people NEED on items they can't use (especially when it's an upgrade for you).. But, ninjas are common in any game
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Well said. I fear the days of EQ gnoll groups chatting for hours grinding gnolls are done . Gone are the days when MMO stood for social interaction.
...
As far as lack of chat, I miss those days, and there was a similar discussion recently on another game's boards surrounding that issue in the larger topic of dwindling enthusiasm for [PUG] grouping. Chat isn't usually one of the more 'productive' things, so it is at least questioned if not discouraged....
I am sorry, but can you please tell me where in the OP was I asking for "chatting"? Is saying "Hello" when we first form, or "Thanks for the run guys" at the end of the run TOO MUCH to ask and will hinder productivity. I am not asking to make friends in every run or strike up a conversation with someone while we are fighting. You are right, the game mechanics discourages any type of text conversation during a run. But a little civility, some semblance of courtesy to acknowledge the existence of others would greatly improve the party experience IMHO.
Totally agree, sometime you do get the odd bunch that simply are the biggest asses, there was one guy that requested to party with me, didnt say a word, pulled this boss from the map that I helped him kill, it was pretty tough, didnt say a word of gratitude, and kicked me from the party.
I know that people use voice chat, but it just made me feel used...
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honoraryorangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The weird non-talking is definitely.... weird. This seems particularly prevalent in PVP (even more so than normal for MMOs) where you can do 5 matches in a row with not one single person responding to a greeting or call for help ("losing back tower, need help" seems to translate to "fight in the middle outside capture zone!" 9 times out of 10).
And yeah the ones wanting to make every run a speed run are pretty irritating too, especially when the dungeon is new to you. They tend to try to skip all of the optional chests or objectives.
party etiquette in F2P games is HORRIBLE. There is an increased number of emotional pre-pubescent gamers due to the game being free and not required $$ to actually purchase. I have learned to expect the worse and hope for the best
I agree that it's weird, but the chat system in this game is not intuitive (speaking from a new player's perspective). The need/greed thing is MMO 101. If people start needing things they can't use, I'll just leave the group and re-queue, and explain why I'm doing so. I figure if more people do that, the ninjas will eventually realize nobody wants to play with them, and either change their behavior or FOAD. Hopefully that will improve - in the meantime, I'll keep saying "hi all" and "thanks for the run," etc. whether anyone responds or not. I guess sooner or later, I'll run into people who respond, make some friends, and have some socializing to look forward to next time I log on.
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wolfsong84Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Another +1 for this thread.
I generally do greet a party at the beginning. The response I've gotten has been mixed (either some "hi's" or silence). People seemed much more sociable in closed beta weekends. Since the actual gameplay hasn't changed that much, I'm thinking the more open f2p aspect is indeed drawing in a more barbaric playerbase for some reason.
I'm with you, OP. A minimal amount of mere civility is lacking, and it is not something that one should need to join a good guild for. That's like saying I need to find a good sorority if I expect anyone on campus to answer a greeting (or not steal my books).
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pinkysansbrainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
it's due to the sense of entitlement the current generation of 18-35's feel and have no problem expressing.
Every generation has its members who possess an unjustified sense of entitlement, yours included. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not. This isn't a recent thing, and even if it were, it would be because of the previous generation or two, not because of this generation.
Comments
I think you misunderstood. I didn't say the majority are ******bags. I believe quite the opposite, otherwise I wouldn't be playing MMOs.
If I considered ANY one of your suggestions seriously, than I'd rather quit the game and never play any other MMO again. Fortunately, with years of experience, your mentality is actually in the minority. No one flocks behind the ******bag, no matter how decked out you are. I'd rather play with a fun group who aren't as experienced, aren't as geared, aren't as arrogant. After all this is a "game". If I owned a used car dealership, or managed a wall street boiler room, I would definitely hire your type though. But I certainly wouldn't care to hang out with you after work.
While I agree with your post...the unidentified items are not "silly". It's a core facet of D&D to be able to identify unidentified items, although it could/should be implemented with a bit more....finesse.
Yes, I meant it silly in the way it is implemented in the loot system. I think only blue or better should be unidentified. Even when I NEED on the green that my class can use, I often feel bad knowing there is a good chance I won't use any of it when I see their stats.
I really wish there was a way to break down unwanted loot into crafting material, or a chance for some rank 1 enchantments.
I'm not at all trying to disagree with anything else you have said. I completely agree that when interacting with others you should be polite, considerate and respectful. I just don't agree with the premise that the reason to play an MMO is to be social, even in a virtual sense.
Cheers.
I agree with all the points OP made, I also believe this one is big. Just because the game LETS you roll need on everything, doesnt mean you should. If you cant equip it. GREED. So frustrating losing out on rare gear to some yahoo who just wants to sell it. The game really should make it impossible to hit need on stuff you cant equip.
I'm not talking about people who lag behind everyone else, I'm talking about people who, when the rest of the party is stopping to open a treasure chest, decide to rush ahead of the group. Not just one person, the entire group. It's not four people taking on trash mobs, as you put it. It's one person, typically the DPS (what is it with hotheads choosing DPS anyway?), running ahead of the other four members of the group, getting hammered, and then complaining because the healer is "bad".
You're talking about people who lag behind so far that it's pointless to continue with them in the party. I'm referring to crotchrockets who can't wait to get to the end of a dungeon just so they can wipe and take loot that doesn't fit their class.
it's due to the sense of entitlement the current generation of 18-35's feel and have no problem expressing. there was a study done recently (for which i lost the link dammit) showing how baby boomers and their hippy changes (broad term, it's deeper than that) has lead to the cynical and selfish generation you see in social gaming now.
i also started with diku muds in the early 90's and i miss those days terribly.
I just finished a dungeon run with a grp where the Guard kept rolling Need on everything. He won the first Blue drop and continued to roll Need on the other two Blue drops -- winning another.
It was bad enough he couldn't play his class, but then to Need everything was just dumbfounding.
However, one thing I want to add is that you cannot dictate how others will act, but you can control how you will. Whenever I am not speaking, I always do my best to play my chosen role effectively. i.e. if I'm tank, I always make sure to be the first in, or at least try to, so that I can the majority of the aggro so that the DPS and healers can do their jobs effectively. I always make sure to use every tool at my disposal to increase my threat so that I can KEEP that majority of that aggro. So far, I've been doing well, I think, as I have yet to be in a party, where I am not taking the most amount of damage.
Additionally, I act on the need/greed/pass exactly how I would like others to act. I only need on items that are useable and are either purple, or that I need at the moment (I.e. if I'm looking to replace my shield / sword / etc). I haven't encountered any purples, yet, but I would still only need on the ones that I could specifically use. All other items that are use-able I greed on, and I always pass on any reds.
I don't frankly care if other people in my party follow the same etiquette, but I can be satisfied knowing that I'm not being a selfish ******.
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>..
I hate giving people the benefit on the first blue because invariably it's one I can use and the entire party rolls NEED on my item when I have already rolled GREED on their item.
You can be screwed first and last in life if you don't do the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. There was a game that came out recently that only allowed the classes who could use an item even roll on it in the first places. Then if there was no class that rolled or could use it, everyone was allowed to roll on it.
That is the way to do it. Until then Human NEED will always occur over GREED and screw you first.
Honestly, they need a loot system like Guild Wars 2. Everyone has their own instanced loot. Problem solved.
With round robin, everyone often ends up with something, and often there is a good quanity of distributed loot for everyone. Every buccaneer gets their fair share. When it is lean, its lean for everyone. When its abundant, everyone reaps.
If there is a genuine need, most often something can be arranged with the person who's turn it was up that ended up with the item in question. Concerns about the ultra rare, valuable loot that would be both directly beneficial to someone present and indirectly beneficial to everyone else is given to the random seeding as to who is first in in that tier of round robin, and if a second or third or more pieces of rare, valuable loot drop, more people come away smiling than if one or two people ended up with half a dozen pieces of the 'good' loot.
If those who won a round robin rare loot don't feel they particularly need whatever it was because it doesn't directly help them, often times in my experience with it, they will privately and generously give it to the member present who it could directly benefit, but are certainly not obligated or expected to.
As far as lack of chat, I miss those days, and there was a similar discussion recently on another game's boards surrounding that issue in the larger topic of dwindling enthusiasm for [PUG] grouping. Chat isn't usually one of the more 'productive' things, so it is at least questioned if not discouraged.
Part of it is the mechanics and the interface. Combat is a lot more 'active' than in games of a decade ago, both fortunately and unfortunately. There's a lot more mouse gyrating, and a lot more beautiful button sequencing and brutal button smashing at a higher rate than what we had in say Everquest 1 when it first hit the street and for quite a few years following.
As a rogue in EQ1, I had auto-attack and then somewhere between a ten and a six second window before backstab would refresh. After a while that mob would fall over and we'd switch targets. Occassionally an evade or a duelist discipline would be tossed in. That left a lot of time to insert chat, even pretty lengthy chat if you were quick and had a common shorthand, while 'actively' fighting.
In the few games I have looked at and involved myself with lately, besides having auto-attack retired and replaced with combat abilities, we have also replaced casting time with per skill cool-downs, which means we have the opportunity to do a lot more things in the same span of time that normally were left to watching cast bars tick down. While I am sure most clerics and wizards don't miss the monotony of Complete Heal chains and Ice Comet/Garrisons Superior Sundering , the opportunity to chat a little during each of those casts is probably missed. Of course, I would be remiss if I don't also note the loss of passive defense in the more common form of block and dodge. Those were things our characters just did when they felt the time was right, now its up to you to try it, even if it might not succeed.
Dungeon challenges/mob layouts are different and mob characteristics/behavior/dynamics have evolved/mutated so you don't frequently spend a minute or more chipping away at every mob you face. Reactions in the form of good positioning and good, split second target picking are more valued than efficiency/longevity and encounter sizing/setup (or pulling) and genuine mastery of control effects for a fairly lengthy duration.
Pulling there used to be player skillset (different altogether from a character or class skillset), and now its barely more than a step in an activity being de-emphasized in anything else I've looked at since. Because it was skill it often took time to 'break into' an area or to progress to the next room in a dungeon. Of those that experienced and remember Everquest, some may claim it was feign death or a particular gray area ability like pet-pulling that enabled good pulling; but it was often far more than that, especially when non 'traditional' pulling classes were involved like bards, rogues, and enchanters in 'hard' pulls. Unless you have never been involved with an MMO, its now hard to make a bad pull in pretty much any other game I have looked at -- you either have to try to make it hard, or have simply no sense of hostile social agro because usually the clusters are small and generously spaced with roamers that either are or are not part of the static pull by design.
With the loss of pulling or truly breaking a room, there is the loss of more chat opportunity.
TL;DR
Round Robin > NBG; Combat and interface evolution is a strong contributing factor to the loss of social chat in a group..
So frustrating when people NEED on items they can't use (especially when it's an upgrade for you).. But, ninjas are common in any game
Amen brother! I think my fondest memories of online gameplay, especially PvP, was DIKU, no graphics, all TEXT and it was insane lol.
Your Backstab >>>ERADICATES<<< the little piece of ****!
Your second Backstab DOES UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to the little piece of ****!
I am sorry, but can you please tell me where in the OP was I asking for "chatting"? Is saying "Hello" when we first form, or "Thanks for the run guys" at the end of the run TOO MUCH to ask and will hinder productivity. I am not asking to make friends in every run or strike up a conversation with someone while we are fighting. You are right, the game mechanics discourages any type of text conversation during a run. But a little civility, some semblance of courtesy to acknowledge the existence of others would greatly improve the party experience IMHO.
I know that people use voice chat, but it just made me feel used...
And yeah the ones wanting to make every run a speed run are pretty irritating too, especially when the dungeon is new to you. They tend to try to skip all of the optional chests or objectives.
I generally do greet a party at the beginning. The response I've gotten has been mixed (either some "hi's" or silence). People seemed much more sociable in closed beta weekends. Since the actual gameplay hasn't changed that much, I'm thinking the more open f2p aspect is indeed drawing in a more barbaric playerbase for some reason.
I'm with you, OP. A minimal amount of mere civility is lacking, and it is not something that one should need to join a good guild for. That's like saying I need to find a good sorority if I expect anyone on campus to answer a greeting (or not steal my books).
Every generation has its members who possess an unjustified sense of entitlement, yours included. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not. This isn't a recent thing, and even if it were, it would be because of the previous generation or two, not because of this generation.