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What it is, and what it isn't
hardishane
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 4 Arc User
Been playing Neverwinter for just about 2 weeks now, and in most ways the game is fun, I like the quests and the foundry has great potential 
and as a longtime PnP player of D&D I like the story line.
The game in itself is great, and I will continue to play it, so this is not a rant (I hope)
To the develpers and Cryptic in general... you have done a great job, its a fun game to play, and so far, I'd say well balanced.
BUT (and yes... its a big "but") it is not D&D, I suspected as much when I heard the game would use a new system, so I'm not
as such, I just feel its wrong to call it D&D... its a game set in one of the D&D universes, but not enough to call it anything more, its just is'nt D&D.
Well, to be honest, I did not like the 4th ed ruleset, so I still hold to 3.0 and 3.5 when playing D&D PnP, but even 4th ed did have the feel of D&D, Neverwinter, unfortunately, does not.
So... please do not call it a D&D game... call it a game based on a D&D universe, or anything else for that matter, just not D&D... because it is not.
As english is not my native language, I hope you will excuse any errors in spelling and syntax
and as a longtime PnP player of D&D I like the story line.The game in itself is great, and I will continue to play it, so this is not a rant (I hope)
To the develpers and Cryptic in general... you have done a great job, its a fun game to play, and so far, I'd say well balanced.
BUT (and yes... its a big "but") it is not D&D, I suspected as much when I heard the game would use a new system, so I'm not
as such, I just feel its wrong to call it D&D... its a game set in one of the D&D universes, but not enough to call it anything more, its just is'nt D&D.Well, to be honest, I did not like the 4th ed ruleset, so I still hold to 3.0 and 3.5 when playing D&D PnP, but even 4th ed did have the feel of D&D, Neverwinter, unfortunately, does not.
So... please do not call it a D&D game... call it a game based on a D&D universe, or anything else for that matter, just not D&D... because it is not.
As english is not my native language, I hope you will excuse any errors in spelling and syntax
Post edited by hardishane on
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Comments
To me, it's as D&D as any game ever has been.
-Rachel-
Agree 100% I have been playing D&D since 75 and I'm really getting sick of people telling me what D&D is and isn't. It may not be D&D to the OP and that's cool, but that doesn't mean that it's universally so.
I'll have to disagree with you as a D&D player since near begining of 2e, what you came here expecting was a 3.5 experience. What you got was 4d. Alot of the things you are thinking about are done under the hood...while some things were modified. But to be truthful a pure straight D&D clone would not work well in an MMO setting... anyone is an mmo player understands that. For what its worth the adaptation of 4e to mmo style of game was done expertly... the setting is good.. the classes feel fresh and unique, and story is solid. So i dont know what you came here expecting.... but i got everything i thought i would...except the lame *** item shop.
That said i'd kill for a DM mode for foundry stuff x3
I've played, on PnP, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, and 4e. I've played every single DnD video game that's ever existed EVER. Let's take the Baldur's Gate for consoles series as an example... It was a Forgotten Realms game with classic DnD THEMED character and story elements but they NEVER advertised it as a dungeons and dragons game.. Why?? Because that would give you the impression that it's using the DnD Ruleset.
This is a Forgotten Realms game. It has DnD-THEMED character and story elements but it does NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT use the 4th edition or ANY OTHER PUBLISHED DnD ruleset. this is NOT up for debate, this is simple fact.
The argument that I was expecting 3rd edition rules... NOPE. I know what the **** 4e is and this is NOT it.
With that out of the way, I really enjoy this game. I grudgingly played 4e on PnP and I'm glad this is not 4th edition but rather 4th edition-flavored.. I don't think 4e works well for anything...
DDO has more DnD-ruleset-elements than this game does.. NOT a bad thing, just simple fact. This is not a DnD game but it is a very good Forgotten Realms game.
OP had a personal opinion and thats fine! I agree with him this game isnt really the great D&D experience I had hoped for either and I cant really see my self play this anymore than a few weeks.
Sorry but neverwinter doesnt capture any magic ive had at all in the D&D universe previously.
It might be that I came to the game expecting to understand part of the mechanics, not all mind you, just parts of it, and ending up seeing a lot of stuff that has no meaning for a straight D&D game play.
But then again... I do enjoy the game... even though its not D&D for me.
And for the record, I've been playing D&D PnP or AD&D (as it was known then) since 1st ed. so I've experienced most of the changes of the PnP game.
By stating it like objective fact with no actual details, it's a flamewar in a flask.
Personally, nw and DDO don't feel like D&D to me, because D&D is about hanging with friends and making silly voices.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Yeah. That's fine. In that respect it is NOTHING like Real D&D. Because if it was we'd all be waiting for our initiative for -weeks- as it went through every player and NPC.
This is an adaptation of the 4e rules set. And it does a fairly passable job of translating it into a fast paced action-oriented massively multiplayer game. For my part? D&D isn't a ruleset or a bag of dice or hanging out with friends while Dave the neckbeard decides what his dwarven barbarian will do in this particular encounter (combat or social the answer is "Rage", by the way). It's about the story and the enemies and the awesome D&D monsters.
Give me Beholders and Gelatinous Cubes. Mimics and Chromatic Dragons any day and I'll be pleased as punch. Put together a story with it and I'll be even happier. Though I'd make up my own if you didn't have one I liked.
Honestly? I hope Cryptic gets the rights to a Ravenloft MMO and picks up this exact same graphical and combat engine and just swaps out the enemies and story while adding new classes and different races. Can you imagine a game developer making multiple lateral iterations of a game like this? Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, Dragonlance. Same mechanics with new stories and enemies and new classes that they could port over from one game to the next. Any advancement in design equally compatible with the other games for maximum expandability.
I'd freaking love it, myself.
-Rachel-
You want FACTS, for something that bears a deep deep personal preference with every single person? When the bloody hell did this become about facts.
Personally, if you want a concrete answer, its due to the games artstyle and sub-par voice acting and the action combat (which is fun though) mixed with an atempt at hitting forgotten realms lore...but it fails.
I agree with this, and as a player from way back in 1980 (i know many beat me, but that's a good deal of time to have been playing, heh), this is D&D. D&D had to change, or it would go away, and that lead to 4e, and this feels a good deal like 4e to me, except for the lack of more classes and paragon paths.
Eh, think of it as house rules. There you go, debate over.
This whole debate over if it's D&D or not, is silly, like the debates over if certain MMOs are "really" MMOs. It's semantics, Wizards of the Coast licensed the game, and now these rules are "published" and part of the D&D world. You will NEVER get a 3.5 game again, it's not in the interests of Wizards of the Coast. Heck, 4e is going to be replaced with 5e in 2014 or so, and then you will have even more arguments over if that is "really D&D".
Wizards of the Coast allowed them to put D&D on it, it's now D&D, there is no "It doesn't feel like D&D to me." part of that.
And that's a cool argument. I can respect that. I'd rather discuss elements of contention than vaguely shout stuff.
For me, seriously, little touches like scrolls remind me that this is D&D. The curiously class-limited weapons and armor and lack of a lack of other customization are weirdly unlike D&D.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Wizards of the Coast will only license new games if they use a form of the 4E rules. So if Cryptic wanted to make Neverwinter Nights they where stuck using the 4th Edition.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hey Rachel,
so what you're saying is that this is DnD because it uses a LOREset popularized within the DnD RULEset. DnD is playable in many different LOREsets, one is Forgotten Realms (most notable, Drizzt D'Urden, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, the Harpers, etc), another is Eberron (notable for things like the Warforged, Lamania, the House Wars) and several others... While these loresets do indeed give a sense of DnD, they are NOT dungeons and dragons, as dungeons and dragons is a set of rules, independant (mostly) of the lore.
This is a Forgotten Realms game. I really enjoy it and it gives me almost all the fulfilment I would expect from a dungeons and dragons game....except the rogue functionality is extremely limited, for instance, one of my favorite quick-game scenarios I would pass out to new rogues to get from level 1-5 solo so that we can start our campaign in style is basically a splinter cell/MGS type situation where the rogue is poorly secured in an orc fortress kitchen, awaiting butchery by the chef.. the rogue must make a dex or strength check to get out of his bindings, sneak up, steal kitchen knives, assassinate the chef, and proceed to sneak out of the fortress, avoiding traps, sneaking past sentries, pickpocketing keys, tossing stones to create diversions, et cetera.. this type of mission seems impossible to create in the foundry... We'll see.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the core mechanics of the game does not resemble DnD rules. But I believe that the general abstract themes of each element, such as powers and feats is very well implemented and I really appreciate the direction of the design. I'm glad that they didn't start with DnD rules and change things to fit an MMO like DDO did. I'm glad they took a tried-and-true MMO-ruleset and colored it DnD-- this seems to produce a very neat atmosphere and dynamic gameplay.
Sorry for this jumbled mess, it killed some time at the end of my workday... I get to go home soon.
If by not resembling 3rd edition AD&D then yes you are correct. But if you mean that they don't resemble 4th Edition D&D then you are wrong. The general format and flow of the rules and mechanics of NWNO is 4th Edition. [Yes there are differences but the core mechanics similar.]
Basically since the release of 4th Edition Wizards of the Coast have only been willing to license new computer games based on the 4th Edition ruleset. The biggest complaint that those who don't like 4E have is that it doesn't feel like D&D. The second biggest complain is that 4E feels like a FPS game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Rather than using an entirely probabilistic combat metric this game uses a combination of probability and hit boxes to determine whether an attack is a hit or a miss. The stats are also incredibly different from any other form of D&D in the form of Deflection, notably. If you want to look at the RULES that define the game it only bears a passing resemblance to D&D. Which is what I noted in the first two sentences of my previous posts.
From a Rules Standpoint this game is nothing like D&D. Of course neither is any edition of D&D ever. Including Warband. Because each edition basically rewrites huge swaths of previous editions. It's a term with at least 4 different core definitions and hundreds if not thousands of subtle variants based on personal preference.
If any edition of D&D were made into an MMO it would play like Baldur's Gate or Pool of Radiance except that no one would get the chance to play, since the initiative order would be in the millions (including NPC initiative counts, Yikes!). And if they did personal initiative combats (where your team is in combat but your initiative order doesn't affect anyone else) you'd see a game that looks like a lot of rubber-band style lag as you watch 1 enemy at a time fight a group of players, then 1 player acts, and 1 enemy... Forever.
It would be a "Truly D&D" MMO but it would be a HORRIBLE MMO. Of course you'd -still- have posts like this on the forums from various edition grognards crying about how it wasn't "D&D" because it was 4e. Or 3e. Or anything but their personal preferred system.
Personally? For me this game is as D&D as it can get. Yeah, it doesn't follow the 4e rules exactly but neither did I: House Rules for the win.
-Rachel-
I've been drifting from one MMO to the next since CoH was murdered, and Tera was the one that hooked me. Keep in mind, I typically hate eastern themed MMO's and art design, and I've never been an anime fan. Still, the combat works, the Lancer is what I've always wanted in a tank, and though I don't often jump on graphics for or against a game, the engine renders my Aman beautifully.
So I'm finally able to devote some time to Neverwinter today, and I'm at a loss to explain the hype. Same Cryptic engine, same underlying cartoon feel. The instancing is just too eerily similar to Champions somehow...I can't quite put my finger on it, but the very first instance out of the tutorial, I would have sworn I was back in the mineshaft rescuing Witchcraft from CO.
Coming from Tera and TSW, the character models and armor are pretty bland and uninteresting, and the sliders don't really do anything to make the character unique, which is shocking considering what you could achieve in STO. I'm also not a big fan of the over the top poses (the two finger salute comes to mind). We're not in Paragon or Millenium City...lose the dramatic stances.
Functionally, the action combat (animations and attack transition) is aesthetically clunky. If I'm playing a Tera Warrior, I can dance around a BAM, fairly seamlessly blending attacks and dodges. If I'm here playing a Trickster Rogue (the nearest Neverwinter equivalent), I attack and pause, dodge and pause, attack and pause, etc, and dodging doesn't even appear to help that much unless you're squaring off against a boss type enemy with bigger attacks. You're essentially forced to face tank more, which brings me to another problem I have - that this game is a potion quaffer, and I really, really hate that. But then, I don't know if that's a side effect of this game specifically, or the 4e ruleset.
The one thing Neverwinter has going for it is the Forgotten Realms setting, and that there's at least a vague sense of purpose for your character's actions, which is something I hate about Tera. There, there's not much rhyme or reason for anything you or the mobs are doing, other than some generic and artificial sense of urgency.
All in all, I'm just not impressed, and quite frankly, I've been lukewarm on the foundry thing since the concept was introduced in CoH (under the Architect Entertainment title). With very few exceptions, most of the stuff people create just isn't that interesting.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
http://www.destructoid.com/pax-capcom-breathes-new-life-into-d-d-arcade-classics-249384.phtml
If you watch the 1:40 trailer, you'll see that it doesn't have much in line with the turn-based, traditional pnp system either, yet people are excited about them. Oh, did you notice that it was also called Dungeons & Dragons, and that it has gameplay more related to Double Dragon instead of dice-rolling tabletops?
I completely agree. I'm frankly amazed that WotC licensed the IP to them knowing that this is what they were going to do. D&D has rules. If you played it without the rules, then you didn't really play D&D (like if you don't follow the movement rules in chess you aren't actually playing chess). D&D has some very important basics like Spell Points (for instance) which I was shocked to find missing. And actual Spells for that matter (instead of "powers").
Like the OP, I'm not saying that the game isn't pretty or fun to play. But it's definitely not D&D.
This game should follow suit with race and class choices.
I'm very torn with this game. It is very fun to play; the dungeons are great. However, I just can't seem to get past the lack of proper D&D character builds and the silly AD currency.
I wish the auction was driven by gold. Gold is the essence of the D&D universe. I understand that the devs need to make money but I would have rather seen the auction driven by gold and AD a secondary currency that bought special gear and such from special vendors.
Even better; a model following GW2. You buy the game with no subscription; that way, you don't have to deal with this AD HAMSTER.
Just my 2 cents.