You say control and medium damage is better than high damage and no control, but what rogues have is high control and high damage. The best example of this is their aoe 'silence' move that stops you and anyone around you (unless you happen to be a GF and block it, GL with that they love to teleport behind you and immediately jump'n'twirly-daggers so you can't) from using ANY ability, which is nonsense. You should be able to use your at-wills at all times unless you are 100% hard stunned.
First of all, you can hide your armor by sitting in town clothes. If you have no town clothes, you look like you're naked but you still have all your gear/stats. When I PvP on my Guardian Fighter I look naked except for a bald head, a *****in mustache and a stylish moonstone mask.
Second of all, classes in this game mostly all have a purpose and counter. Rogues seem powerful but Control Wizards are a pretty hard counter to them with the amount of CC they get. Wizards then might seem like the best but then they encounter a Guardian who just eats all their CC with their block. Clerics all around keep people going which makes them capable of outlasting a Guardian who's burst DPS is pretty low by comparison. Rogues single target burst lets them quickly overcome most Clerics. None of this means that a Rogue will always lose to a Wizard or a Guardian will always beat a Wizard only that they have the tools to be an effective counter to those classes.
The only one that doesn't really fit is the GWF which doesn't really have a place in the counter list as their CC immunity is short leaving them vulnerable to Wizards who can just kite them during Defiance and they don't have nearly the same burst as Rogues. It's like they're a hybrid of a TR's damage and a Guardian's CC with not really excelling at either role causing them to be kinda 'meh' all around.
Rogues have good single target dmg but get CC'd hard, and can be mitigated by a shield, or heals.
CW's can cc anyone, and kite them down if they play smart and react fast
Clerics can outheal most dmg and peck at people long enough for backup to arrive
A well geared shield user can tank anyone long enough for backup
A well geared Great Weapon user Can destroy rogues endgame (fricken easily I might add), and have a fair bit of ways to close in on CW's
How the F'K is that not balanced? The problem is this: from the beginning of mmo's people cry and target rogues because of 1) big numbers scare them and they would rather they do the big damage no matter what class they play or what other tools they bring or the rogue's lack, it just isn't fair if YOU aren't doing the top damage now is it? 2) getting surprised out of stealth is frustrating for a lot of people. Maybe its just me, see, my first online pvp experience was NWN! With multi classing, and a game built solely for PVE, guess what, there was NO balancing even though I played on a hardcore pvp server (Dark Sun Online, very small hardcore community). But no one cried, they adapted and moved on. Used their ingenuity and created builds to counter the class they felt they most likely wanted to kill. Well, Neverwinter is still in beta, you have tons of feats and powers you can put on your tray. Suck it the F'K up and build a kiting build if you hate rogues that much. But you'd rather cry in the forums wouldn't you? Thought so. If you want a pvp game that is perfectly balanced class based mmo's wont work. Go play a fps, or a fps like mmo like Forge etc. Where everyone has the same gear and abilities. Or, leave this game alone.
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exshinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Dazing strike has a ramp up time that is easily dodged. Deft strike moves you to the target but once again you can dodge roll. Both abilities have long enough cooldowns that your stamina will refill before the abilities are even available again. Stop slamming your face on the keyboard and put something thinking and timing into what you're doing.
The only problem with that is the fact that respeccing and trying new builds either costs you two weeks of grinding (maybe a week for hardcore players) or real money. When they let you respec for a gold cost, then you can use the 'experiment and find the best build to counter' argument.
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peterxtMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm not sure I agree. Everytime I see a rogue in PvP on my guardian, I just shrug my shoulders and deal with them accordingly.
Dazing strike has a ramp up time that is easily dodged. Deft strike moves you to the target but once again you can dodge roll. Both abilities have long enough cooldowns that your stamina will refill before the abilities are even available again. Stop slamming your face on the keyboard and put something thinking and timing into what you're doing.
I don't have to think when chasing rogues down. I have a 20 meter charge with no cooldown.
I'm not sure I agree. Everytime I see a rogue in PvP on my guardian, I just shrug my shoulders and deal with them accordingly.
We are the only class that really has no problems with rogues, largely because we block all their burst, then cave their heads in. And they can't escape.
Of course the dev teams prefer the rouge class. How does this surprise you? Did you skip the opening "lol look at how awesome rouges are" video aka new cinematic
Lol... The rogue killed a bunch of zombies then got her *** kicked by the first real challenge? Meanwhile the CW is killing a dragon lol.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I once killed 12 rouges in a row - it was a mascara
I saw the whole thing after eye shadowed one of them to the scene. At the risk of my lip sticking to your ***, your skills made me blush in embarrassment.
.....
......VANISHING CREAM.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
I don't understand why people don't make threads that have detail to why they think rogues need tweaked . Instead of just crying about how overpowered they are. Why not explain why you think they are with detail description. It is a beta after all and I'm sure people will listen. I havn't had enough experience with rogues to feel if they are overpowered. I will in due time though, I am sure.
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exshinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't understand why people don't make threads that have detail to why they think rogues need tweaked . Instead of just crying about how overpowered they are. Why not explain why you think they are with detail description. It is a beta after all and I'm sure people will listen. I havn't had enough experience with rogues to feel if they are overpowered. I will in due time though, I am sure.
Because they have a bad experience with one and the go to thing for them to do is come here to cry. Happens with every game.
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Second of all, classes in this game mostly all have a purpose and counter. Rogues seem powerful but Control Wizards are a pretty hard counter to them with the amount of CC they get. Wizards then might seem like the best but then they encounter a Guardian who just eats all their CC with their block.
The argument from what I gather is that two cw can hold a point but a good rouge that hides behind a gf like this would be a stunning upset. After a couple days doing lv60 pvp I'd say most people don't know what they are doing or going into matches not prepared. Every melee class has a power that will grant pvp immunity but clearly not everyone brings that as 1/3 abilities. Pvp isn't about what single class is on top(gf at Lv 40+) it's how different combinations of people work together to grab points on the map
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Dazing strike has a ramp up time that is easily dodged. Deft strike moves you to the target but once again you can dodge roll. Both abilities have long enough cooldowns that your stamina will refill before the abilities are even available again. Stop slamming your face on the keyboard and put something thinking and timing into what you're doing.
Yeah that dazing strike has a brutal wind up. I've taken half by my health or more due to being prone during the animation. You'd think vanishing would cancel damage but buy does it ever not.
One backward dodge/block and you have an open rogue with a bullseye on his chest.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
We are the only class that really has no problems with rogues, largely because we block all their burst, then cave their heads in. And they can't escape.
CW's can own them easily too, also a smart cleric can kite them for days. Sooooo, thats over half the classes and they CAN all deal with rogues with skill. Which is what pvp should be about nes pas?
Every melee class has a power that will grant pvp immunity but clearly not everyone brings that as 1/3 abilities.
I'm still leveling, what are these abilities called for each class? Are they available only in late game? I like to know my enemies strengths and weaknesses.
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piklenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
P.S I love killing noobs who sit there and let me hit them and dont dodge my dazzing strike. It makes me laugh that someone can be so pvp illiterate and not tap forward or dodge in the 1 second window that it gives you to get out. I find it so funny how people complain so much about rogues when they are the easiest class to deny in this game. So instead of complaining. Hows about using your brain for once. and learn to keep on the move instead of standing still and just letting them hit you.
Played a good number of PVP matches as a rogue. Sometimes killed, sometimes got killed. Have also fought people who for some reason simply stand there and keep slashing at me. Even when my rogue jumps to do the stun attack they would stand there either blocking or fighting. Why? You are right infront of me, none of my teammates are harassing you. Dodge out. You can easily kill rogues if you keep moving.
can't beat them join them. They are not going to balance it. No mmo does. So sit back and roll a rogue. It is fun easy, and I own all classes because I am a better player now.
You're kidding, right? Every MMO I've played where there is a stealth class, people whine incessantly about it and then it ends up getting nerfed into the ground. And then people still whine about it!
Of course the dev teams prefer the rouge class. How does this surprise you? Did you skip the opening "lol look at how awesome rouges are" video aka new cinematic
You mean the one where the rogue exerts herself in killing useless drones and then is almost killed when her stealth fails? While the wizard is using levitation powers to create a shield and hurling amazing fireballs at the dracolich? Followed by the cleric wiping out as many undead as the rogue took out, but by just muttering a few words?
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm still leveling, what are these abilities called for each class? Are they available only in late game? I like to know my enemies strengths and weaknesses.
I'd like to give exact names but I call powers different things then what the game calls them(ex the rouge one is something like cant catch me ie:god mode). You can look down the power path and read what powers do what bit almost any power that gives you a red aura means you are in ccable... Except for gf all the have to do is hold shift till their gap closer is off cool down attack with the shield knockback(restores guard meter ain't fully) and laugh at the cw. When I'm on my cw I avoid gfs like they have the plague
We rogues aren't hard to kill... Just survive our burst damage, and we fall over like dry leaves in a stiff wind. x.x The only reason I never have to use my health potions when fighting PvE is because I kill everything before it can land a hit. o.e In PvP, I'm *constantly* getting shafted by fighters. Other rogues typically aren't hard to deal with, though. ._. Probably because I know how the class is played, so I can counter easily... Eh.
Regardless, rogues aren't overpowered. We have a massive burst damage, sure, but if you survive that, we might as well be small children with plastic knives. Quit complaining. Play the class for the first fifteen levels or so. Get into a fight with an ogre and company. See how I feel. o.e
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh look, another MMO where everyone gangs up on the stealth class with cries for nerfs.
You're kidding, right? Every MMO I've played where there is a stealth class, people whine incessantly about it and then it ends up getting nerfed into the ground. And then people still whine about it!
You mean the one where the rogue exerts herself in killing useless drones and then is almost killed when her stealth fails? While the wizard is using levitation powers to create a shield and hurling amazing fireballs at the dracolich? Followed by the cleric wiping out as many undead as the rogue took out, but by just muttering a few words?
That wizard isn't available ingame he was clearly a hallucination, yes the cleric got a few word and the rouge solo'd the boss
My level 8 Rogue deals more damage than my Level 12 Wizard in a far shorter time, and meanwhile has more escapes, more AoE, and isn't completely useless after using all encounter spells. Do you see something wrong with that?
My level 8 Rogue deals more damage than my Level 12 Wizard in a far shorter time, and meanwhile has more escapes, more AoE, and isn't completely useless after using all encounter spells. Do you see something wrong with that?
Ya at those levels my GF was 1 shotting mobs with encounters...
I just compared my GWF's HP to a TR's hp. I have 19 con, he has 12. HP different was 10k compared to 12k. The con alone is a 14% difference... so take whatever is left.. If he had 19 con we'd have same hp probably. And armor difference? pfft. 26 AC = 8% mitigation. One single dodge can save you more damage than that. Stop pretending to be frail.
what I love is that there still are alot of rogues on the forums complaining about other classes. I need some valor for a weapon. Beyond that I am staying away from PvP. I cant be bothered leveling a rogue, since the first 35 levels are booring.
Dude, if they are then this is WoW all over again. Rogues crying about not being able to kill people fast enough, get out of CCs quick enough....they are never satisfied till they can kill anyone at anytime.
Know what I am seeing today in the Battlegrounds? Rogues running around WITH NO ARMOR ON! YES...NONE! Ya know why? Because they have a point to prove.
They used the social clothing button without having anything in the social clothing slots. As a result, they show as being naked with just the weapons. They do wear armor and do get the stats. It's just a visual thing.
Comments
Second of all, classes in this game mostly all have a purpose and counter. Rogues seem powerful but Control Wizards are a pretty hard counter to them with the amount of CC they get. Wizards then might seem like the best but then they encounter a Guardian who just eats all their CC with their block. Clerics all around keep people going which makes them capable of outlasting a Guardian who's burst DPS is pretty low by comparison. Rogues single target burst lets them quickly overcome most Clerics. None of this means that a Rogue will always lose to a Wizard or a Guardian will always beat a Wizard only that they have the tools to be an effective counter to those classes.
The only one that doesn't really fit is the GWF which doesn't really have a place in the counter list as their CC immunity is short leaving them vulnerable to Wizards who can just kite them during Defiance and they don't have nearly the same burst as Rogues. It's like they're a hybrid of a TR's damage and a Guardian's CC with not really excelling at either role causing them to be kinda 'meh' all around.
CW's can cc anyone, and kite them down if they play smart and react fast
Clerics can outheal most dmg and peck at people long enough for backup to arrive
A well geared shield user can tank anyone long enough for backup
A well geared Great Weapon user Can destroy rogues endgame (fricken easily I might add), and have a fair bit of ways to close in on CW's
How the F'K is that not balanced? The problem is this: from the beginning of mmo's people cry and target rogues because of 1) big numbers scare them and they would rather they do the big damage no matter what class they play or what other tools they bring or the rogue's lack, it just isn't fair if YOU aren't doing the top damage now is it? 2) getting surprised out of stealth is frustrating for a lot of people. Maybe its just me, see, my first online pvp experience was NWN! With multi classing, and a game built solely for PVE, guess what, there was NO balancing even though I played on a hardcore pvp server (Dark Sun Online, very small hardcore community). But no one cried, they adapted and moved on. Used their ingenuity and created builds to counter the class they felt they most likely wanted to kill. Well, Neverwinter is still in beta, you have tons of feats and powers you can put on your tray. Suck it the F'K up and build a kiting build if you hate rogues that much. But you'd rather cry in the forums wouldn't you? Thought so. If you want a pvp game that is perfectly balanced class based mmo's wont work. Go play a fps, or a fps like mmo like Forge etc. Where everyone has the same gear and abilities. Or, leave this game alone.
I don't have to think when chasing rogues down. I have a 20 meter charge with no cooldown.
We are the only class that really has no problems with rogues, largely because we block all their burst, then cave their heads in. And they can't escape.
Secondly, PvP is a TEAM effort. A rogue on his own isn't going to accomplish much.
Yes, rogues do a lot of damage. But "hard to kill"? Surely you jest. Rogues die pretty quickly when focused.
In short, L2P.
Lol... The rogue killed a bunch of zombies then got her *** kicked by the first real challenge? Meanwhile the CW is killing a dragon lol.
I saw the whole thing after eye shadowed one of them to the scene. At the risk of my lip sticking to your ***, your skills made me blush in embarrassment.
.....
......VANISHING CREAM.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Because they have a bad experience with one and the go to thing for them to do is come here to cry. Happens with every game.
Yeah that dazing strike has a brutal wind up. I've taken half by my health or more due to being prone during the animation. You'd think vanishing would cancel damage but buy does it ever not.
One backward dodge/block and you have an open rogue with a bullseye on his chest.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Played a good number of PVP matches as a rogue. Sometimes killed, sometimes got killed. Have also fought people who for some reason simply stand there and keep slashing at me. Even when my rogue jumps to do the stun attack they would stand there either blocking or fighting. Why? You are right infront of me, none of my teammates are harassing you. Dodge out. You can easily kill rogues if you keep moving.
You're kidding, right? Every MMO I've played where there is a stealth class, people whine incessantly about it and then it ends up getting nerfed into the ground. And then people still whine about it!
You mean the one where the rogue exerts herself in killing useless drones and then is almost killed when her stealth fails? While the wizard is using levitation powers to create a shield and hurling amazing fireballs at the dracolich? Followed by the cleric wiping out as many undead as the rogue took out, but by just muttering a few words?
I'd like to give exact names but I call powers different things then what the game calls them(ex the rouge one is something like cant catch me ie:god mode). You can look down the power path and read what powers do what bit almost any power that gives you a red aura means you are in ccable... Except for gf all the have to do is hold shift till their gap closer is off cool down attack with the shield knockback(restores guard meter ain't fully) and laugh at the cw. When I'm on my cw I avoid gfs like they have the plague
Regardless, rogues aren't overpowered. We have a massive burst damage, sure, but if you survive that, we might as well be small children with plastic knives. Quit complaining. Play the class for the first fifteen levels or so. Get into a fight with an ogre and company. See how I feel. o.e
That wizard isn't available ingame he was clearly a hallucination, yes the cleric got a few word and the rouge solo'd the boss
It's not really soloing if you need a healer and a distraction... And a big angry dude shoving a big angry weapon in the boss's side...
Ya at those levels my GF was 1 shotting mobs with encounters...
Dude, if they are then this is WoW all over again. Rogues crying about not being able to kill people fast enough, get out of CCs quick enough....they are never satisfied till they can kill anyone at anytime.
They used the social clothing button without having anything in the social clothing slots. As a result, they show as being naked with just the weapons. They do wear armor and do get the stats. It's just a visual thing.