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What is the role of the Guardian Fighter in PVE Cryptic?
ceonnyn
Member Posts: 28 Arc User
I have some concerns about this. I have put everything I can into tanking feats/gear. I am still unsure as to the purpose of this class, however, being that the following situations occur constantly:
1) If I am in a pug, there will always be at least one person with the tank companion
- On every boss fight I have encountered except for the dragon boss, the tank companion will not only be able to tank the boss, but will most likely also not die. Additionally, they hold threat easier and with no effort whatsoever on the part of whomever is controlling that companion
- If for some reason the tank companion cannot tank the boss (i.e. the green dragon), due to DoTs being placed on the ground which kill it, the mechanics are such that no one actually needs to tank that boss anyways
What is the point of having a guardian fighter along in those scenarios?
2) Trash mobs
- GFs do not have abilities to easily hold AOE threat on multiple targets, as well as the fact the shield breaks almost immediately if you get a pack. I recognize this. This is for control wizards to handle. They are the trashmasters.
- The toughest mob in the pack, should the GF go for that? Why? The tank companion is already on it.
So are we supposed to be DPS then?
3) Mark mechanic
- For the love of God, why does this break on damage and not just expire after 30 seconds or something? I realize that the initial thought was perhaps to make combat more interesting and varied by having bosses switch off of the gf and attack other players, however, if you go back up to point #1, the companion would have been tanking the boss to begin with.
- Between fighting tank companions for threat on a boss and losing the mark and having to re-apply it and then trying to fight the stupid companion for threat again, it is an exercise in futility.
Rant (Can skip if you want) : I do not enjoy the mark mechanic. It is not fun. It is not value added. It provides nothing to the gaming experience.
In fact, I would say the mark mechanic is the most unfriendly, bizarre, revolting, and crappy tanking mechanism I have ever seen in my online game tanking history.
I realize this is a soft launch but hey, how can anyone really say they like the mark ability. It sucks, let's be honest. There are many things you could do to fix it, which I will not go into here.
4) I just did a dungeon and there were two tank companions. They held agro on the boss the entire time. Why didn't I try to take aggro?
You tell me. Why should I even try to tank it when the NPCs can tank it better than I can? What exactly do I provide my group
In Conclusion
Guardian Fighters are not supposed to tank packs of groups. Thats for the controllers. OK.
We do not heal.
We do not dps.
We do not tank boss mobs. They are either being tanked by a companion or are not necessary to be tanked.
The shield blocking mechanic and watching the guard meter is extremely fun. I love it. When I am the only one tanking, I enjoy it.
... Until my mark breaks
... Or the companion NPC pulls aggro
One scenario of which is somewhat under my control, the other is not.
1) If I am in a pug, there will always be at least one person with the tank companion
- On every boss fight I have encountered except for the dragon boss, the tank companion will not only be able to tank the boss, but will most likely also not die. Additionally, they hold threat easier and with no effort whatsoever on the part of whomever is controlling that companion
- If for some reason the tank companion cannot tank the boss (i.e. the green dragon), due to DoTs being placed on the ground which kill it, the mechanics are such that no one actually needs to tank that boss anyways
What is the point of having a guardian fighter along in those scenarios?
2) Trash mobs
- GFs do not have abilities to easily hold AOE threat on multiple targets, as well as the fact the shield breaks almost immediately if you get a pack. I recognize this. This is for control wizards to handle. They are the trashmasters.
- The toughest mob in the pack, should the GF go for that? Why? The tank companion is already on it.
So are we supposed to be DPS then?
3) Mark mechanic
- For the love of God, why does this break on damage and not just expire after 30 seconds or something? I realize that the initial thought was perhaps to make combat more interesting and varied by having bosses switch off of the gf and attack other players, however, if you go back up to point #1, the companion would have been tanking the boss to begin with.
- Between fighting tank companions for threat on a boss and losing the mark and having to re-apply it and then trying to fight the stupid companion for threat again, it is an exercise in futility.
Rant (Can skip if you want) : I do not enjoy the mark mechanic. It is not fun. It is not value added. It provides nothing to the gaming experience.
In fact, I would say the mark mechanic is the most unfriendly, bizarre, revolting, and crappy tanking mechanism I have ever seen in my online game tanking history.
I realize this is a soft launch but hey, how can anyone really say they like the mark ability. It sucks, let's be honest. There are many things you could do to fix it, which I will not go into here.
4) I just did a dungeon and there were two tank companions. They held agro on the boss the entire time. Why didn't I try to take aggro?
You tell me. Why should I even try to tank it when the NPCs can tank it better than I can? What exactly do I provide my group
In Conclusion
Guardian Fighters are not supposed to tank packs of groups. Thats for the controllers. OK.
We do not heal.
We do not dps.
We do not tank boss mobs. They are either being tanked by a companion or are not necessary to be tanked.
The shield blocking mechanic and watching the guard meter is extremely fun. I love it. When I am the only one tanking, I enjoy it.
... Until my mark breaks
... Or the companion NPC pulls aggro
One scenario of which is somewhat under my control, the other is not.
Post edited by ceonnyn on
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Comments
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?166451-Envy-s-DPS-Guardian-Fighter-compendium
and
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?176972-Rokuthy-s-Hybrid-Tanking-Build-(GF)-for-End-Game-PvE-(and-PvP)-content
I'm running the 2nd, and it's both fun and effective.
I hope that is the case. I still hate the mark mechanic though.
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
Mark mechanic is here to stay, why? because its part of tanking in actual 4e i suspect that it wont disappear, they will just have to make it better.
I've actually never run a dungeon where people had the tanks. It was always healers at lower levels, and dps ones at epic levels.
Enforced Threat + Cleaving marked targets. Also, you shouldn't be holding your shield up against a pack of mobs to lose your shield gauge in the first place. Yes, you have a shield, but you need to know when to face tank. Secondly, you shouldn't be trying to hold threat on a group of trash anyways.
You need to hit your marked targets. It's really that simple.
Hit tab again. It's not hard. Also, try to not let marked targets hit you, if they do... Hit tab again. It's not like it has a CD or costs you anything.
As for the tank companion, yes, it sucks. No companion should never be able to be as effective as a PC. Period.
1) get some power, power helps alot, more damage = more threat.
2) I went down the top Paragon tree, the 100% extra power, and 15% on cleave is amazing for holding agro on trash packs.
3) Knights's Challenge, is amazing when you use it properly. However you need to learn when and when not to use this, as it can kill you.
4) Your abilities have threat modifiers, but they arent that great, you need to do some damage to hold agro its as simple as that. If you spec all defense and get no power on gear, your going to find while you can take a hit, you wont get things to actually hit you.
I havnt played the GF yet but will soon be trying it out. Am i right in asuming the mark is a form a taunt? IF so and its keyed to stop after the mob is hit, for me any ways it stands to reason you are supose to inclued it in some kind of attack rotation. An easy way to make the mark more user friendly would be to remove its active role altogether and make it just give you a temp improved threat generation on the mobs marked. or better yet make it act like the mechanic its ment to mimic from 4th edition and stays for 6secs or until an other warrior hits it and make it auto aply when ever your hit a mob. for 4th ed the warrior mark is passive and auto apllys unless the person playing the character says hes not marking it.
Seems to me you are just spouting some stuff b/c if you actually tried to put that into effect you'd know that is not an effective stategy. The mark from that rush skill lasts for a second, maybe 2 and you will not threat any gen over heals and dps with it. Also the range of it is very short so you're not going to be leap frogging anywhere.
The threat issues in this game have nothing to do with any talent build or play style, the way the game is currently designed it is not possible to hold constant threat on mobs, sometimes a single mob but beyond that it will not happen as is. Telling someone to spec for threat or try different styles cannot compensate for how the game is currently structured.
I could not agree more. I have been tanking in MMORPGs for about 14 years now and have always been regarded as a highly skilled top-tier tank in all of the games I have played with the progression to back it up, but in Neverwinter tanking is kind of pointless in any situation where you have a skilled group.
The mark system is the absolute worst thing I have ever encountered since I started my tanking career and it is the main reason why tanking in this game sucks.
I don't have issues holding threat on a boss or 2 to 3 trash mobs at a time (depending on their mechanics and how often they trigger, because guard is insanely weak) so this isn't a "skill problem", but I truly find the mark mechanic to be boring and takes up too much of your time in a dungeon.
It would be nice if mark could apply in different ways, like through active combat. Sitting back marking <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> while my party runs in and smashes the enemies isn't fun and the fact that the threat from it has to "ramp up" makes the whole problem even worse.
I have already decided to just pretend I am a DPS until it is changed. If they don't fix it in a month or so, then I will just start a new character from scratch.
In short: Tanks are not really needed in this game. Don't think this is true end-game? Ask the group on Dragon server running Castle Never. They literally dumped the tank in favor of a CW because dropping the tank made the encounters easier. You know there is a problem when you start seeing this.
Mark is counter intuitive.
Even on a single target.
Lose aggro -> mark something -> beat on it -> gain aggro -> lose mark -> lose aggro -> repeat
High aggro management is not fun for the tank, healer, or DPS.
As a tank I should be focused on survivabilility, and dealing where damage I can. Why should a healer or DPS be punished for doing a really good job or for the tank doing a really bad job?
It is fun to tank multiple mobs and it is fun to DPS multiple mobs.
This game has amazingly good weight and impact on abilities and animations. I LOVE seeing sparks fly and screen shake when blocking a bunch of attacks. DPS LOVES seeing large numbers and being able to maximize damage output by AEing down lots of mobs. Fun should come first in a game. Make AE tanking viable, and let DPS enjoy AEing what the tank is holding. As it stands now mobs are running around all over the place at lower levels, or people are standing around waiting for the tank to get threat in the higher level dungeons.
Suggestions
Example trash fight or boss fight
The tank can gather and hold aggro easily. The tank would be required to block to avoid power attacks yet have enough defensive stats to regen back the lost block value between power attacks. To optimize the DPS the tank would also need to make sure the mobs are controlled and stationary. Meanwhile the DPS enjoys AEing while helping CC power attacks. Control Wiz and Clerics can assist in keeping the mobs stationary with roots, or controlled with "pull-like" abilities. And of course they would contribute to the DPS.
Sure sounds a lot more fun than the chaos we have right now.
Also change Mark(tab) to something more usefull! Like a pull or charge!
The Mark mechanic is definitely badly designed. This does not mean it's impossible to hold aggro but you REALLY gotta have a good understanding of how it works and how to maximize it. Not maximizing your threat through Mark and good Mark game play is going to cause you to have aggro go all over the place even without companions which will cause people to bring out tank companions.
The important part to realize is that really prior to 30 you don't even really need a tank in the group to do most of the content. Most bosses are basic AI that do a lot of slow/stationary moves that can be easily dodged and you're mostly just there to fill up space. There is in fact almost no reason at all to do those first two dungeons except for Lion marks (cause there's no loot for ya either) as a Guardian Fighter.
As a Control Wizard with the mega ultra tank Companion let me clarify that the Golem only has one hard taunt every TWO minutes. This means your 15s AOE Hard Taunt will snap it back each time. The biggest problem is your companion attacks whatever you attack so when you get on the boss so does it and when you get on trash so does it. Personally I find the Man-At-Arms dies super fast later on 30+ so it'll become less and less of a factor as time goes on without constant babysitting (and even then there's HUGE aoe damage that needs to be dodged/guarded later on and it tends to die anyways). Even then has anyone who complains about it actually ask people to put the tank companion away?
Probably most importantly after seeing both sides of the coin who the hell really cares who or what is tanking? If someone pops out a golem or man-at-arms and they're going at it just do whatever. I mean basically someone's taking over your job and now you just gotta sit back and coast your way through the rest of it. I used to get somewhat upset as well when people would pull one out but now I just see it as a break from having to do what I normally have to do.
You have a really boring definition of fun.
I've never had as much fun as a healer as I am having now, since my job is to heal while kiting a ball of death.
I expect DPS classes enjoy having more to do than just execute the optimal rotation for their class while using the optimal build for their class. Not that there is anything wrong with that, determining the optimal rotation and build is very rewarding for the few intelligent and dedicated enough to actually do the testing, analysis, and math; but for everyone else they are either doing it right by doing as they are told, or doing it wrong. With a highly mobile fight, it is harder to model and test builds, making practical testing harder.
I do get that this isn't a fun state for people that rolled a tank class wanting to tank. It is a terrible state for them, since they are left with a character that is bad at its role. It should be fixed somehow so that the class is more fun to play. But don't say that the current state isn't fun for everyone else; the current state if ****ing great if you aren't a tank.
This guy gets it and the last paragraph in particular sums up my feelings as a GF Tank. Same as the guy earlier in the thread, I tend to be the Tank in alot of games because I like the control and as a wise man once said, "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself" - With that said...I echo the sentiments of this thread in the hopes that Cryptic/PW will listen to us:
The Mark system sucks. It's not fun. It's not intuitive in the slightest. It's very much annoying that HP damage removes it, which teaches Tanks to Block more often than they should, and using that logic in Trash Packs leads to you having 0 guard meter left. It teaches up and coming Tanks to Tank poorly and downright wrongly. It is counter-intuitive to our, currently very limited, role in the group dynamic.
So far I've pretty much tried everything I can think of, to the point I just don't bother with Mark unless it's vs a lone Boss(which they all get adds eventually and then bye-bye Mark!), and if you didn't get a CW in your group...well you're SOL. Maybe if the right-click skill while blocking generated more Shield Meter or fired faster it would be less of an issue at least, moreso if we could freakin' use ANY skill besides the clicks while Guarding...I mean come on, there's no logical reason I can't Mark, or use my Stun skill, while blocking. Neither requires the kind of focus that I'd have to drop my shield.
And on that note, I'm going to go off on a semi-related Tangent...why can't the Shield block attacks while not Guarding? If an attack hits where the Shield is held but I'm not in Guard mode, can't it mitigate a little bit at least?
But yeah...I'll only be playing my GF further in the interest of helping my friends level their more-fun chars; I've got a Healer on the side I'm going to work on with a friend, and maybe a solo CW so I can "Tank"(CC) adds properly.
Psst, Cryptic: Look through the forums. How many GWF and Cleric and Rogue guides do you see? Plenty. How many PVP/DPS GF threads do you see? Some. How many PvE Tank GF guides do you see? Maybe one. I've also seen a few threads about "wtf how does this threat gen work" and lots of confusion on Marks; That's kind of a hint, guys. You're not new to MMOs. You should know better than this ;p
I still think the mark mechanic sucks though.
What are the odds that a dev will read this? I think the whole thread is good information.
I'd like to quote this guy -