azhrarn80Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
From what I gather from the skills also is that you can basically go for either be in stealth a lot and take less to no damage while doing AC damage to build up your Daily's for faster use, or build on crit and severity to burst down enemies. There is also the 3rd build option that allows you to dodge more and benefit groups as well with armor reduction etc. Although there is no cookie-cutter build yet, when you know what powers you gonna use you should build around that. Some usefull tips from the original author for me were not to invest feat points into feats that increase a certain power since powers will be situational, like for PvE or PvP or dungeons.
Hopefully rabbinicus will update the original post giving tgnaflen his credit as it seems he did a lot of work to gather that info. I had his original bookmarked as well and glad someone posted his name so he gets his credit.
Already did, thanks.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Going to reroll to restart with a 16Dex/16Str/14Cha build instead of 18Dex/15Cha/13Str build and focus Dex/Str with power instead of Dex/Cha. After reading every posts including those in the archives, I think a Dex/Str build should be better for PvE/PvP play (yeah lot of damage and crit!).
Spawn quest > Kill Mobs/collect items > turn in quest > queue for dungeon > begin 1h wait for dungeon > spawn quests > kill mobs > turn in quest > out level dungeon and get removed from queue before getting a chance to run it > move onto next zone > repeat
Was reading through the guide and my build is somewhat similar. If you are using Lurker's Assault daily then there is no point using Invisible Infiltrator as the stealth gain from it would be wasted, due to LA's stealth regen. 15% dmg for 5 secs from 3/3 Invis Infil doesn't seem worth taking over 3% crit from Skillful Infil
The rotation I use is somewhat like this -
Stealth > Lurker’s Assault > Wicked Reminder > Duelist’s Flurry > Wicked Reminder > Bait and Switch when stealth is low and LA is down > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving to keep up debuffs > When stealth is low/out Shadow Strike > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving.
With this rotation you get CA damage from the start, and all your output is buffed by LA as soon as possible. WR debuff gives 3 stacks in stealth. Get it to 5 asap to enable you to do more DPS. DF bleed does a lot of damage at high stacks, try not to let it drop. Bait and switch is used when stealth is low for a refill. The mob will start attacking your decoy thus giving you free AP. Weave in WR and DF to keep the debuffs up, and when your stealth is low use SS to replenish and continue WR and DF until you have an opportunity to refill stealth. Using Tactics 3/3 and Skillful Infiltrator 3/3.
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athalel1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
where would you put your feat and paragon? any specific?
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arcanun20Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 21Arc User
edited May 2013
Rogue is becoming hard to level past 40 o.o
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senseijohnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Yah... the single dungeon on the Pirate Island kicked my butt. Not sure how I'm doing to defeat the boss(es). It's all the adds that kill me. Just to much damage to shrug off.
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valtrayMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Patience Grasshopper.
Unfortunately they took down the earlier class forums, so I copied this over from a cached copy. Unfortunately, I didn't grab the name of the original poster so I apologize for posting this without attribution. All credit goes to the original author.
50 Trickster Rogue / Infiltrator Skill Guide and mini review
Hey everyone, after playing through BW4 and trying every skill build imaginable (i respec a lot) i figured i could give out some info on the skills/builds and my personal take on them.
Current state of the Rogue has us as top damage on single target situations and worst damage in AoE situations (yes even guardian fighters can out dps us on AoE) Overall damage contribution in groups has us on top at the same level as Control Wizards: They pull ahead if there is a ton of AoE or we do if it's a lot of single target.
ther classes are further behind and do not compare in damage.
Overall the class works but our skill tree is one of the worst around because of the many useless/redundant skills and pitfalls in it. This is probably what prompted me to write this guide.
Everything listed here is from a Trickster Rogue - Infiltrator Paragon perspective.
The Infiltrator is centered around Stealth and remaining in stealth as much as possible, most of the abilities given help you regain and under the right circumstances you can remain in Stealth indefinitely.
Races and Stats when selecting a race your stat priority should be an even 50/50 split between Dexterity and Charisma and getting them as high as possible. When selecting your race just remember that 1 point in a stat is really not a big difference so if you want to play a Dwarf thief for the Lulz then go for it.
Dexterity is a no brainer for rogues. Charisma over Strength is because it is point for point more effective as long as you always have combat advantage; something the Infiltrator excels at. If you are not in stealth, flanking or hitting knocked down, Dazed etc targets then Strength is a better sub stat. When other paragon paths come out i expect to see Dex/Str based Rogues.
Gear In gear you will look for pure Power > Power + Critical > Power + HP
Why pure Power? Because no other stat scales as well on a Rogue.
Power over Crit really? Yes, power over crit because critical hits cannot reach a high enough percentile to beat plain base damage. The crit build can work if you get a lucky string but will not be as consistent whereas damage is never wasted.
I tried other stats builds like Defense, Deflection, Recovery, life steal and regen but none of those work: We are not defensive enough to make good use of Defense, Deflection or Regen. Life steal will not help you stay alive better then just killing the stuff and Regen doesn't affect cool down enough without being a high base Wisdom race/character.
How to play this?
Most of what i will write here is my personal opinion and my own playstyle, i will also give a little insight of what's it like for a Rogue at lvl 50.
The first thing to understand is how Stealth works: Your stealth bar slowly regens on its own but dealing damage replenishes it faster. Taking any kind of damage lowers your stealth bar unless its full; when full your stealth bar stays full until activation.
You can activate Stealth at any time and the bar will slowly drain until you are out and reappear. Taking damage while in stealth does not break stealth but will cause your stealth meter to lose a portion proportional to the damage taken (this can break stealth if it is enough to empty your bar). Dealing damage while in stealth mode also replenishes the bar letting you stay in stealth longer (it takes a lot of damage to even counter the natural drain so you may not notice it early on).
Solo Difficulty Scaling
As you progress through the came you will notice that the content gets harder and harder. Bosses sub lvl 30 can be killed in seconds and most enemies deal very little damage or have long animations leading to their big skills. In the later levels, bosses will have substantial hit points and will not be easy to burst down (some are) forcing you on surviving the actual encounter for a few minutes instead of just bursting everything down instantly.
Enemies also hit a lot harder; for example i had 17 000 HP at lvl 50 and the average damage from enemies was around 1k on normal attacks with the skills (red patterns on the ground) doing upward of 4k to 10k. The only way to survive mob packs by that point is to abuse Stealth and the Infiltrator is the perfect role for that.
Another thing to note is that companions do not scale like the players do: Your companion will lose effectiveness as you tackle higher and higher content. Mine could barely stay alive 10 secs vs the lvl 50 content (max rank 20 companion). This means that by that point you need to have figured out a way to keep yourself alive without relying on outside help if you are solo.
The infinite Stealth method
This is what i use to basically stick to stealth 90% of the time.
At Wills: Sly Flourish - trusty reliable damage you use 90% of the time Duelist's Flurry - Used from stealth with lurkers assault to make bosses dead (Sometimes Cloud of Steel instead of Duelist's Flurry if there is too many casters that love to stand in their AoE forever)
Encounter: Wicked Reminder : I would normally use smoke bomb but lvl 50 cap meant it was that or invisible infiltrator and having an armor debuff helps vs thougher enemies Bait and Switch: decoy that gives AP and refills stealth plays right into that build's strength Shadow Strike: full stealth refill when i need it, lets me use wicked reminder then back to stealth
Daily: Whirlwind of Blades - our best aoe damage skill, if there is a lot of minions and basic enemies this clears them nicelly Lurker's Assault - when only the boss remains use this along with Duelist's Flurry to make it dead
Class Features: Tactics - We have painfully slow AP generation this helps Invisible Infiltrator - free full stealth bar after daily means more stealth goodness
It goes a little bit like this, run up to an enemy, stealth, beat on it, when stealth is low use Bait and Switch, re position away from the decoy (to not get hit) keep hitting your target, when stealth is low again use Wicked reminder, exit stealth, use Shadow strike to refill bar, wicked reminder if you have time otherwise stealth again, when stealth is low use Daily power for a refill, when low again wicked reminder etc
Basically you only exit stealth when Shadow strike is up to use the 3 charge Wicked Reminder. If you screw up, kite a little and repeat.
Rogue and Infiltrator skills
I also separate grades with PvE and PvP in mind
Grades: 0 - Garbage, no use whatsoever 1 - Situational, might work but there are better options available 2 - Good, nothing wrong here and if you like the skill then by all means use it. 3 - Amazing, skill that i cannot find anything wrong with fall into that category
Good - some of the good things you can expect out of the skill/feature Bad - some of the things that prevent this skill from shining or things to watch out for.
At Wills
Sly Flourish - PvE 3 PvP 3 Your bread and butter attack, you will use this skill more than anything else. Good - You start with it and throughout the game this will remain your best overall at will. Bad - Nothing really, damage is average but its an at will with 0 drawback.
Cloud of Steel - PvE 1 PvP 3 This will probably be everyone's secondary at will at least until duelist flurry and even then its sometimes better to just keep this skill in case you need some range. Good - Ranged attack and quick execution, good vs enemies that like sitting in their AoE damage fields. Bad - low damage and limited charges (12), adding points does not increase charges only a bit of damage.
Duelist's Flurry - PvE 3, PvP 0 This skill cannot work as your main at Will due to the long animation but it makes good for secondary skill especially vs high HP targets. Good - Highest DPS at will we have; amazing damage when the bleed is at 10/10 stacks. Bad - Takes 2 sec to wind up and another 2 to execute, so you need a stationary target and usually a distraction like a tank etc. Bleeds have no synergy with anything Rogues get
Gloaming Cut - PvE 0, PvP 0 Slow attack with a little bit of forward momentum that deals average damage and gives a little stealth IF you get the killing blow with it. Good - I can't say anything good about this skill, it fails to work in every possible way. Bad - Long windup, bad damage, low stealth bar refill on killing blow makes this a pass for anyone.
Encounter Powers
Dazing Strike - PvE 2, PvP 3 Decent damage and daze is an amazing status effect, i would mark it as a 3 points for PvE but we eventually get better skills and have limited slots. Good - Daze is always good, has a tiny AoE if you land it right Bad - 1 sec animation to execute
Deft Strike - PvE 0, PvP 3 This really had no use in PvE with a limited encounter bar but for PvP this lets you catch anyone and provides excellent mobility. Good - Instant teleport to your targets back, the range while stealth-ed is HUGE. Great top catch runners. Bad - Low damage, relatively long cool down, short duration slow.
Lashing Blade - PvE 2, PvP 2 A good low level skill that sadly got nerfed hard due to its burst potential (used to do 50% extra dmg from stealth). This skill gets replaced by Wicked Reminder later on since its damage just isn't worth the cool down. Good - Instant burst damage, only source of instant direct damage for a long while. Bad - Long Cooldown, the new guaranteed crit from stealth is totally not worth breaking stealth for.
Bait and Switch - PvE 3, PvP 1 (for the stealth refill only) Anytime you are soloing this skill is great providing you with a decoy that takes hits for you and giving you a full stealth bar refill if used in stealth. This skill is almost mandatory for solo play. Good - Free dodge, a full stealth refill from stealth and bonus AP when tank gets hit. Bad - long cooldown and at high level the decoy has very little HP.
Blitz - PvE 2, PvP 1 It's an AoE, something we lack badly. On any other class i would overlook this skill completely but since we have so very little AoE potential this one is a good buy and will serve its purpose. Good - It has AoE something we totally lack, the jump back can also serve as a ghetto dodge. Bad - Average damage, average cool down, if it wasn't for our lack of AoE's this would never be used.
Impossible to Catch - PvE 2, PvP 3 Mandatory PvP skill but for PvE it competes with the 3 spots in our encounters bar; if you know in advance that there will be a ton of AoE to dodge then go for it otherwise slot in something else. Good - Only way to break CC and used from stealth it becomes amazing. Bad - Long cool down limits its PvE usage but would otherwise make it OP for PvP.
Path of the Blade - PvE 1, PvP 0 If you really need more AoE encounter powers this might be an option to use along with Blitz but dont expect to be using this skill often. Good - Its an AoE of sorts Bad - low damage, long cooldown.
Impact Shot - PvE 0, PvP 1 Another range skill with charges; this one doesn't make the list because none of the things it does cannot be done by another skill in an improved way. Plus the knockback is annoying at best. Good - The stun from stealth is nice Bad - average damage, limited charges not increased by adding mastery points and Deft Strike is better at catching runners anyway.
Shadow Strike - PvE 3, PvP 3 The redeeming skill for the infiltrator Paragon Path; this is what makes everything work and should be included in almost every build. Good - Full stealth refill every ~12 secs from range if needed. Bad - meaningless damage and adding mastery points is a waste for 10% dmg.
Wicked Reminder - PvE 3, PvP 0 This is what you replace Lashing blade with; it deals a little less damage but debuff's armor and is on a sub 4 sec cool down. I kinda wish that this was an at will with lower damage but at least its a good skill. The damage bonus from the armor debuff felt like ~5% per stack Good - Short cool down, decent damage, armor debuff and stealth effect is useful bad - Will have to compete for one of your 3 encounter slots.
Smoke Bomb - PvE 3, PvP 3 I kinda wish i could have tried the 3 point version of this amazing skill but even at 1 points this was awesome, AoE Daze rocks. Good - Daze is an excellent effect, it's an AoE and Slow effect from stealth on top of that is awesome for PvP Bad - Long cool down, rather small effect.
Daily Powers
Bloodbath - PvE 0, PvP 3 This skill is the first daily power you will have access to, it looks cool, sounds cool and falls short in potential for PvE. In PvP this lets you deal some damage while being completely immune to damage. Good - Looks cool and you are invulnerable during this power, single target damage is good. Bad - AoE damage is low as you have no way of controlling what it will hit and this may also move you to places you don't want to go to.
Lurker's Assault - PvE 3, PvP 3 This lets you keep stealth for a loooong time and gives you 60% damage bonus to boot, need i say more? Good - Great damage boost, good utility Bad - World turns black and white making red aoe areas very hard to see use with caution.
Whirlwind of Blades - PvE 2, PvP 1 This skill is a little bland at first because we have bad AP generation early on and it doesn't do that much damage but in the later levels it will clear an entire room of minions for you. Good - Large Aoe centered on you with excellent damage potential Bad - you will need to be in the center of everything if you want a good hit out of this
Courage Breaker - PvE 1, PvP 0 While a 90% damage reduction sounds appealing we cannot maintain something like that to really make a difference. Good - Gains a ton of potential from putting points into it. Bad - Doesn't last long enough to make use of a Daily Power.
Shocking Execution - PvE 1, PvP 1 I may reserve judgement of this skill for later since i could only try the lvl 1 version, maybe 200% extra damage will make it shine but at lvl 1 it was not good enough to be a daily power. Good - Long range burst potential Bad - Damage was low at lvl 1
Class Features
Sneak Attack PvE 0, PvP 2 Dunno what they were thinking when they made this but even the name doesn't seem to work... Good - Will make you walk at half mount speed when in stealth great to catch someone Bad - Name doesn't feel right and wtf just give us back the old version
First Strike - PvE 0, PvP 1 15% damage for only the first hit in a fight doesn't make for a useful feature. Good - Nothing! Bad - 15% for 3 points once per fight does not work no matter how you look at it.
Tenacious Concealment - PvE 3, PvP 3 This is something that you should pick up along the way, it helps when dealing with situations with a ton of AoE damage flying around. Good - 90% reduction almost removes the penalty we get from taking damage. Bad - Unless you are taking damage this does nothing for you
Tactics - PvE 3, PvP 0 We have painfully slow AP generation, 15% from this helps a little and makes for a useful class feature. Good - Helps AP, we really need more AP Bad - 15% is a little low
Infiltrator's Action - PvE 0, PvP 0 This might be useful if we had a hard time gaining combat advantage but we do not so this goes to the useless pile. Good - at least adding points into it actually does something useful. Bad - everything this does is done better by invisible Infiltrator.
Skillful Infiltrator - PvE 3, PvP 3 Passive 15% speed 3% crit and 3% deflect, this is always good, all the time, also makes Sneak Attack look bad. Good - Always useful no matter what you do Bad - its kinda of an uninspired passive stat boost, still good though
Invisible Infiltrator - PvE 2, PvP 2 This has amazing synergies with the infiltrator paragon; giving you a 3rd way to refill a full stealth bar (4th if you count Gloaming Cut) as well as some extra damage Good - Another way to regain stealth, the bonus damage is great too Bad - Situational due to Daily power requirement
FEATS
I will go over them later, basically anything that improves AP generation > Stealth duration > damage (rest is not worth it)
This playstyle is the exact reason why i managed to solo the last boss in the Gray Wolf Den dungeon at level 43, "2 levels below recommended level".
Abusing stealth, using atwills 90% of the time to remain in stealth while still doing damage to mobs, mobs will not attack you when you are in stealth "aka abusing stealth to win", use powers that refills stealth meter, and lurker's assault.
Took around 30mins to do. alot of kiting. using the feat that regains stealth meter on doding, it was fairly easy.
though alot of patience and concentration, to not get 2 shot by his 2 shadow wolf companions.
Thanks for the summary. My build is a bit different and I use some skills differently from you.
Str for instance increases stamina regeneration, and I've been using Clouds of Steel up to my current level 40, which uses stamina. Fully specced, it will give you 3x twelve blades to throw, that slow the target and with increasing damage. I usually run out of stamina before I run out of blades. It's great to single out low-health targets and take them out, or slow approaching targets when I needed to dodge.
Deft Strike is my all-time favorite. In PvE it's a must to dash away from the mob hacking in on me and hit the lower-health supportclass standing far away in a corner somewhere. Same for PvP.
Bait and Switch is a must for PvE, but can work decently in PvP too. I've seen a number of players hacking my dummy to pieces while I took a caster. I guess some people prefer to slash before they look
honestly i'm running a dex TR and i'm destroying mobs in anything i've done so far, if crit is hard capped then im going to assume it falls off fairly fast but i mean i seem to crit quit often rocking 30% Crit.
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piklenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
I wonder if movement speed gives any bonus during pvp.
Stealth > Lurker’s Assault > Wicked Reminder > Duelist’s Flurry > Wicked Reminder > Bait and Switch when stealth is low and LA is down > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving to keep up debuffs > When stealth is low/out Shadow Strike > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving.
Sorry for the newbie question. But doesn't Wicked Reminder remove your stealth? shouldn't you use Duelists flurry before wicked reminder?
Is CHA still better point for point than STR? I dont know if it has changed (someone once compared the two)...\
How does 1% damage per point from STR compare to 1% combat advantage damage from CHA?
It seems like everyone is building STR with either CHA or DEX as secondary.
I hope I can answer this for you.
Basically STR gives you a 100% flat damage while CHA gives you 25% of your true damage. Therefore, if you have +6 STR that should equal out to +6% flat damage while CHA will give you 0.25x0.06= 1.5% flat damage.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
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why no dex at all ? read a few postings back i tried to explain why.
Fantastic, thanks! It was really bothering me that I couldn't give proper credit!
Already did, thanks.
Easy there killer, next time read the whole thing (including the part you quoted). I was quite clear that all credit is due to the original author.
Spawn quest > Kill Mobs/collect items > turn in quest > queue for dungeon > complete dungeon > spawn quests > kill mobs ...
You need a guide to tell you that?
Fixed for you.
The rotation I use is somewhat like this -
Stealth > Lurker’s Assault > Wicked Reminder > Duelist’s Flurry > Wicked Reminder > Bait and Switch when stealth is low and LA is down > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving to keep up debuffs > When stealth is low/out Shadow Strike > Wicked Reminder / Duelist’s Flurry weaving.
With this rotation you get CA damage from the start, and all your output is buffed by LA as soon as possible. WR debuff gives 3 stacks in stealth. Get it to 5 asap to enable you to do more DPS. DF bleed does a lot of damage at high stacks, try not to let it drop. Bait and switch is used when stealth is low for a refill. The mob will start attacking your decoy thus giving you free AP. Weave in WR and DF to keep the debuffs up, and when your stealth is low use SS to replenish and continue WR and DF until you have an opportunity to refill stealth. Using Tactics 3/3 and Skillful Infiltrator 3/3.
Yah... the single dungeon on the Pirate Island kicked my butt. Not sure how I'm doing to defeat the boss(es). It's all the adds that kill me. Just to much damage to shrug off.
This playstyle is the exact reason why i managed to solo the last boss in the Gray Wolf Den dungeon at level 43, "2 levels below recommended level".
Abusing stealth, using atwills 90% of the time to remain in stealth while still doing damage to mobs, mobs will not attack you when you are in stealth "aka abusing stealth to win", use powers that refills stealth meter, and lurker's assault.
Took around 30mins to do. alot of kiting. using the feat that regains stealth meter on doding, it was fairly easy.
though alot of patience and concentration, to not get 2 shot by his 2 shadow wolf companions.
dude ur signature is awesome!!!
Wow thanks, this worked for me
Str for instance increases stamina regeneration, and I've been using Clouds of Steel up to my current level 40, which uses stamina. Fully specced, it will give you 3x twelve blades to throw, that slow the target and with increasing damage. I usually run out of stamina before I run out of blades. It's great to single out low-health targets and take them out, or slow approaching targets when I needed to dodge.
Deft Strike is my all-time favorite. In PvE it's a must to dash away from the mob hacking in on me and hit the lower-health supportclass standing far away in a corner somewhere. Same for PvP.
Bait and Switch is a must for PvE, but can work decently in PvP too. I've seen a number of players hacking my dummy to pieces while I took a caster. I guess some people prefer to slash before they look
Just 2 cents added to the banter.
Y
Sorry for the newbie question. But doesn't Wicked Reminder remove your stealth? shouldn't you use Duelists flurry before wicked reminder?
I find myself really wanting this to be possible but I get the feeling you'd have to trade off a lot of something too important to lose.
I hope I can answer this for you.
Basically STR gives you a 100% flat damage while CHA gives you 25% of your true damage. Therefore, if you have +6 STR that should equal out to +6% flat damage while CHA will give you 0.25x0.06= 1.5% flat damage.
and bearlocks