Next Archetype?

rkv13

So we have the Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters. We have the Devoted Cleric and are hearing talk of the Battle Cleric on the way. We have the Control Wizard and the only logical next step is the War Wizard.

But what about Rogues?

We have the Trickster Rogue, dual wielding daggers sneaking around backstabbing and generally being a roguish HAMSTER. What will be the alternative Archetype? In 4E to date we have Aerialist, Brawny, Cutthroat, Shadowy, and Trickster.

Aerialists focus on lots of movement, leaping and tumbling in and out of combat to get into the most advantageous position.

Brawnys are all about heavy damage and CC, stunning/immobilizing/pushing/proneing their targets to death.

Cutthroats are the scariest of the scary Rogues, wielding maces of all things and relying on pants-s***ing terror to keep their enemies cowed.

Shadowy are the super-sneaks, utilizing ranged attacks from the shadows without ever letting the enemy know where they are.

Tricksters are supposed to be all about misdirection and, similar to the Aerialists, moving in and out and all around combat to confound, dizzy, and generally f**k with the enemy. Frankly the devs didn't deliver on this theme enough, providing one single power (and a rather lazy one at that) that generates a shadow clone that's only useful in PvE.

So which will be next?

My guess: Shadowy Rogue. In BW3 Rogues were capable of staying in Stealth for a long time, pumping out a ton of damage while remaining almost entirely untouchable. This was reeled back in BW4, and now most Rogues build toward using Stealth for initial engagement (ie sneaking up behind an enemy to start the fight) and to boost one of their encounter powers in the middle of a fight.

Shadowy Rogues could take up the near-perma-stealth option with ranged attacks (crossbows, slings, bows, etc.) that can be used from Stealth. I'd give them fewer escape mechanisms, or at least make those escape mechanisms do little/no damage (flash/smoke bombs, 3 dodge rolls instead of 2, etc.), and more sustained over burst damage, but with more CC (arrow in the foot to slow, poison arrows for DoTs/weaken, etc.) and utility.

Thoughts?

zardoz007

No on the Shadowy rogue. The trickster rogue is best to be the only rogue with stealth. It would be like giving new fighter classes Unstoppable or Block. Each new class needs a new specific class feature that makes them special.

So for the New rogue Class is see more of the Cuttthroat rogue, wielding a single handed mace or other blunt weapon would be great to define a new rogue class as separate from the TR. Give them a hand crossbow in there other hand and we could have a great melee/ranged rogue. All of there CC could be dirty tricks. Imagine knock backs with mace and then slow powers on crossbows. They could play ping pong with monsters kill it at a distance and knock them away when they get close.

Their Class feature should focus on keeping mobs away from them or by keeping mobs close to them CC'ed. And not hiding and stabbing in the dark like stealth.

bleeds4u

I find it unfortunate that this game doesn't include things like player housing and pick pocketing that would allow for thief classes from tabletop D&D such as Burglar and Fence.

I also really hoped that we would see thieves needing to spend class points to develope skills like Hide in Shadows, Pick Pocket, Open Locks, Move Silently etc. All these things should be programable in this day and age, but I can understand that is a lot of work just to make one class more.....rogue-like.

rkv13

@zardoz: I'm not so sure each class will have a completely unique feature. It would be nice, but I have my reservations. The Battle Cleric which is currently being created (so excited! ) is going to be using a shield, so they may well have the same Block feature as GFs. Other Defender classes will likely have a Mark feature as well, though I hope each will have its own unique flair to it. I wouldn't be the least surprised to see another Rogue or Rogue-like class with Stealth. Disappointed... maybe, but I wouldn't blame the devs and I certainly wouldn't stop playing over it.

@bleeds4u: Well it would be damned hard to incorporate burglary into the game (only one class gets to experience that portion of the game), and pick pocketing is kinda pointless when you're gonna murder the target immediately after. Neverwinter is an Action MMO, and so slowing the pace down so Rogues can pick pockets and burglar houses would make it less fun.

Now trapfinding... that is already a part of the game but is sadly near-pointless. I've never died from traps, a trap has never cost me a fight (though admittedly come a little close), and groups almost never bother to let the Rogue disarm the traps but rather eat the damage and chug a single potion/wait for the Cleric to heal them. IMO traps ought to be scarier so Rogues can actually feel their skill has purpose.

thevlaka

rkv13 wrote: »

@bleeds4u: Well it would be damned hard to incorporate burglary into the game (only one class gets to experience that portion of the game), and pick pocketing is kinda pointless when you're gonna murder the target immediately after. Neverwinter is an Action MMO, and so slowing the pace down so Rogues can pick pockets and burglar houses would make it less fun.

Now trapfinding... that is already a part of the game but is sadly near-pointless. I've never died from traps, a trap has never cost me a fight (though admittedly come a little close), and groups almost never bother to let the Rogue disarm the traps but rather eat the damage and chug a single potion/wait for the Cleric to heal them. IMO traps ought to be scarier so Rogues can actually feel their skill has purpose.

why not, other MMO's allow classes to specialize in certain abilities/features. Why not pickpocketing?

bleeds4u

Its true, only the TR would get to experience burglary. However, everyone else would get to experience having their homes broken into and some of their stuff taken. Pickpocketing in no way equals assassination since I am saying that it should be in for npc's as well as players. A system like this opens up worlds of possibilities for new pvp systems, role play, and makes even your "down time" exciting. Your description of an MMO seems to be confused with FPS. It doesn't have to be that way. It shouldn't have to be a fast paced grindfest to be "fun". Unfortunately for me, I've been around playing games a really long time. Unlike some posters here, I remember when there were no computers. Tabletop games limit you to your, and your other players imagination. They work great until people's idea of what is takes a major turn. MMO's attempt to bridge this gap and limit everyone to the same vision which is great if they put in enough detail to satisfy everyone; which they never do.

Your comments about the trap system are a great example. They took the time to include traps, did all the work to create the various types and put in a system of detection and, just as you pointed out, made them so useless that it's easier to just soak the meaningless damage than pause 5-10 seconds and let the thieves do their jobs.

Anyone here old enough to have played Gemstone III (or IV) by Simutronics? If you have, you know what kind of game I'm talking about.

vylker

I would like to ask, at 30 of April will they reveal the next class also?

daemonsthere

Probably not. The most expected time for adding anything is 60 days after open beta. When they include a new race (Drows), they possibly can include new classes as a patch.

enderlin50

http://flip-edesign.com/DungeonsAndDragons/c_stat.php?class=Rogue



There are your Rogue options.

- Cutthroat Rogue
- Aerialist Rogue
- Brawny Rogue
- Shadowy Rogue

kendokken

Out of curiosity, how does one cut throats with a mace?

I'd liek to see the brawny as the next rogue given the choice. But we won't be given the choice so it doesn't really matter.

rabbinicus

kendokken wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how does one cut throats with a mace?

It's a really, really sharp mace...
Or you knock someone over the head, take their stuff, then cut their throat. Kind of excessive really, but that's cutthroats for you!

matzera

I was curious to not see a ranger metaclass on launch. I realize that this would never fall to a rogue archetype, but does anyone know if this is planned for one of the post launch classes?

prunetracy

I don't think we'll see another rogue build for a very long time. The trickster rogue as implemented pretty much covers the Rogue class already. There are far too many other classes to implement before they need to look at a second, barely distinct, rogue build. I actually doubt that we'll ever see one. If we do, I think it'll be the Shadowy Rogue, since it has a ranged focus that isn't represented with the current rogue.

We likely won't see a different Rogue option until they've put in (for starters): Ranger (both Archery and Two-Blade), Warlock, Paladin, Druid, Barbarian, and Sorcerer.

rkv13

prunetracy wrote: »

I don't think we'll see another rogue build for a very long time. The trickster rogue as implemented pretty much covers the Rogue class already.

That's why I don't foresee the Brawny, Aerialist or Cutthroat archetypes coming around, everything unique about them (particularly brawny) is already done by the Trickster. Hence my vote going to Shadowy for the Ranged Rogue.

matzera wrote: »

I was curious to not see a ranger metaclass on launch. I realize that this would never fall to a rogue archetype, but does anyone know if this is planned for one of the post launch classes?

Haha, I knew someone would bring up Rangers in this discussion. Rangers aren't Rogues! xD

I've heard that the Archer Ranger will be the first bow-user class and should be among the first to be added post-launch. So keep your ears open for any news!

matzera

Yeah i'm super excited to play my TR, but an archery ranger is definitely next on my hitlist! Thanks for the update! Didn't mean to offend by bringing them up in the thread! I realize rogues and rangers are very different = P.

mutepoint1

The next classes should be paladin, ranger, and warlock. Because all three were starter classes for 4th edition.

I do agree though, the next rogue class being a ranged specialist would be interesting..

maggothole

If you ask me the devs are doing everything they can to dry hump the Drizzt lore. I think they are going to add in a ranger class next.