New Sneak...

werealchemist

EDIT: this is about the passive ability, not sneak its self sorry for the confusion!

ok so let me get this straight... they changed the sneak bonus from [+25% damage] to [+10% speed]?

how does that even make any sense? you move faster while sneaking? Not very likely to happen, apparently these guys have never tried to sneak anywhere... and taking away the damage? are you saying its not easier to stab someone in the spleen when they don't know your'e there?

ok i get they thought it was too powerful as it was and maybe they were right, maybe not. but the point is shouldn't they have made the change to something that actually makes sense, like improved crit rates or maybe only 10-15% extra damage instead?

veei

I wasn't a fan of this either. I don't think is makes sense. If they are going to keep it like this call it something more appropriate to the ability the skill gives you.

tacc4990

Bunch of crybabies on forums got it changed. I agree its totally stupid and makes no sense in it's current form. I won't be putting any points into it at all.

werealchemist

yeah no pints are going into it for me either

steampunky

Stealth still gives you the damage bonus while hidden.

What the OP is referring to is a Feat that improves your speed while stealthed to offset the minor slow being stealthed applies.

The feat -used- to be a damage increase, but was unbalanced against the other options of it's level and became the "Only" worthwhile option.

-Rachel-

ragemonkey83

Just a thought why not a make it apply a debuff on the mob that reduced def stats on the mob or increases dmg for the party eg. 1%/2%/3%, no tears then as it will aid every one and also allows that TR to bring that to the table as a party buff and stays with what it should be ....a dmg buff.

currently its a waste , even the tear jerkers can see that....

zaketrin

The feat -used- to be a damage increase, but was unbalanced against the other options of it's level and became the "Only" worthwhile option.

Just using your statement to make a point.

I'm having a difficult time understanding the use of "unbalanced". In solo play, who cares what damage you are doing. In party play, why wouldn't the other 4 players want the striker to do high single target damage. The term appears to apply only to PvP where opponents would care. So it seems the only situation where balance would come to play is PvP.

I do not understand why the game would be balanced for PvP.

Please help me understand. As a PnP 4e player, having an effective striker is important. I play a defender and have never complained about our striker's damage.

Thoughts?

rkv13

zaketrin wrote: »

Just using your statement to make a point.

I'm having a difficult time understanding the use of "unbalanced". In solo play, who cares what damage you are doing. In party play, why wouldn't the other 4 players want the striker to do high single target damage. The term appears to apply only to PvP where opponents would care. So it seems the only situation where balance would come to play is PvP.

I do not understand why the game would be balanced for PvP.

Please help me understand. As a PnP 4e player, having an effective striker is important. I play a defender and have never complained about our striker's damage.

Thoughts?

I agree, the game should be balanced around PvP first because that's where balance matters the most.

However, a large, perhaps majority portion of the player base are in it for the PvE. They want to run dungeons, raids, hard-mode endgame content, and they want to be the best at it. They want to do it first, and to earn the rank of top Paingiver by skill and not class choice. So PvE balance does matter, even if not to you or me.

altyre

rkv13 wrote: »

I agree, the game should be balanced around PvP first because that's where balance matters the most.

However, a large, perhaps majority portion of the player base are in it for the PvE. They want to run dungeons, raids, hard-mode endgame content, and they want to be the best at it. They want to do it first, and to earn the rank of top Paingiver by skill and not class choice. So PvE balance does matter, even if not to you or me.

They should really just do what Arena.net did - skills have completely different functions in PvP and PvE; that way, PvErs are not jipped by PvP balance, and PvPers get closer to their precious perfect balance.

steampunky

rkv13 wrote: »

zaketrin wrote: »

Just using your statement to make a point.

I'm having a difficult time understanding the use of "unbalanced". In solo play, who cares what damage you are doing. In party play, why wouldn't the other 4 players want the striker to do high single target damage. The term appears to apply only to PvP where opponents would care. So it seems the only situation where balance would come to play is PvP.

I do not understand why the game would be balanced for PvP.

Please help me understand. As a PnP 4e player, having an effective striker is important. I play a defender and have never complained about our striker's damage.

Thoughts?

I agree, the game should be balanced around PvP first because that's where balance matters the most.

However, a large, perhaps majority portion of the player base are in it for the PvE. They want to run dungeons, raids, hard-mode endgame content, and they want to be the best at it. They want to do it first, and to earn the rank of top Paingiver by skill and not class choice. So PvE balance does matter, even if not to you or me.

PvE Balance is crucial in any game.

Who cares what kind of damage you do solo? Any game architecture and systems designer in the world should care. Because that is the game. That is the heart of any MMO on the market. I don't care how much time you spend in PvP or end-game or rolling alts the core of the game is combat. And that combat must be balanced. There's a certain range of imbalance, of course, the player must be more powerful than the mobs around her. But that player must also be challenged by those mobs for the game to be worthwhile in any way shape or form. If there's nothing but trivial roflstomping then the game gets as boring as putting god mode on in a Fighting Game.

At least in Super Mario Brothers there's platforming as a gameplay element outside of combat which drives the game forward, so Mario with permanent star power wouldn't become -completely- boring. But in a game designed around and for combat, it is incredibly important to make it engaging. Would Neverwinter be nearly so much fun and interactive if you just stood still without caring about the red circles through combat, never used your roll or a well-timed stun to interrupt or avoid damage? No. So the game needs to be balanced so that element can exist.

All combat is time and damage. Damage Mitigation is a function of both time and damage in that it lowers the damage you take in order to increase the time you can survive. Similarly damage increases shorten the time the enemy can survive which lowers the damage you'll take in the fight by making the whole thing that much shorter as a form of absolute mitigation.

Maybe NW hasn't struck the "Perfect" balance of enemies in a time period, but with what they have for spawns and combat duration that 25% increase in damage was too powerful to maintain challenging gameplay.

-Rachel-

werealchemist

steampunky wrote: »

PvE Balance is crucial in any game.

Who cares what kind of damage you do solo? Any game architecture and systems designer in the world should care. Because that is the game. That is the heart of any MMO on the market. I don't care how much time you spend in PvP or end-game or rolling alts the core of the game is combat. And that combat must be balanced. There's a certain range of imbalance, of course, the player must be more powerful than the mobs around her. But that player must also be challenged by those mobs for the game to be worthwhile in any way shape or form. If there's nothing but trivial roflstomping then the game gets as boring as putting god mode on in a Fighting Game.

At least in Super Mario Brothers there's platforming as a gameplay element outside of combat which drives the game forward, so Mario with permanent star power wouldn't become -completely- boring. But in a game designed around and for combat, it is incredibly important to make it engaging. Would Neverwinter be nearly so much fun and interactive if you just stood still without caring about the red circles through combat, never used your roll or a well-timed stun to interrupt or avoid damage? No. So the game needs to be balanced so that element can exist.

All combat is time and damage. Damage Mitigation is a function of both time and damage in that it lowers the damage you take in order to increase the time you can survive. Similarly damage increases shorten the time the enemy can survive which lowers the damage you'll take in the fight by making the whole thing that much shorter as a form of absolute mitigation.

Maybe NW hasn't struck the "Perfect" balance of enemies in a time period, but with what they have for spawns and combat duration that 25% increase in damage was too powerful to maintain challenging gameplay.

-Rachel-

I agree whole heartedly with this but i disagree with their decision to beat the HAMSTER out of this feat with a nerf bat until it was nearly completely useless in PvE. as i see it it is now a PvP ONLY skill and hardly even at that. i maintain that they should have left the sam mechanic with the feat and just reduced the numbers until it was manageable.

healhamsta

werealchemist wrote: »

ok so let me get this straight... they changed the sneak bonus from [+25% damage] to [+10% speed]?

how does that even make any sense? you move faster while sneaking? Not very likely to happen, apparently these guys have never tried to sneak anywhere... and taking away the damage? are you saying its not easier to stab someone in the spleen when they don't know your'e there?

ok i get they thought it was too powerful as it was and maybe they were right, maybe not. but the point is shouldn't they have made the change to something that actually makes sense, like improved crit rates or maybe only 10-15% extra damage instead?

A wizard did it.

healhamsta

zaketrin wrote: »

Just using your statement to make a point.

I'm having a difficult time understanding the use of "unbalanced". In solo play, who cares what damage you are doing. In party play, why wouldn't the other 4 players want the striker to do high single target damage. The term appears to apply only to PvP where opponents would care. So it seems the only situation where balance would come to play is PvP.

I do not understand why the game would be balanced for PvP.

Please help me understand. As a PnP 4e player, having an effective striker is important. I play a defender and have never complained about our striker's damage.

Thoughts?

So you want parties consistently filled with 4+ TRs?
Gah darn double post.

rkv13

steampunky wrote: »

Who cares what kind of damage you do solo? Any game architecture and systems designer in the world should care. Because that is the game. That is the heart of any MMO on the market. I don't care how much time you spend in PvP or end-game or rolling alts the core of the game is combat. And that combat must be balanced. There's a certain range of imbalance, of course, the player must be more powerful than the mobs around her. But that player must also be challenged by those mobs for the game to be worthwhile in any way shape or form. If there's nothing but trivial roflstomping then the game gets as boring as putting god mode on in a Fighting Game.

Indeed, this is a very valid point that most people don't understand; the majority of the game that most players will experience is questing/leveling/grinding. It takes a long time for the average player to reach endgame content (I have no clue how people reach lvl 50 in a single beta weekend, just boggles my mind), and many never make it there. Those who insist that everything but endgame content is irrelevant are doing this game a great disservice because to follow that logic will turn a large population of gamers away from Neverwinter and condemn it to be forgotten in just a couple of years.

werealchemist wrote: »

I agree whole heartedly with this but i disagree with their decision to beat the HAMSTER out of this feat with a nerf bat until it was nearly completely useless in PvE. as i see it it is now a PvP ONLY skill and hardly even at that. i maintain that they should have left the sam mechanic with the feat and just reduced the numbers until it was manageable.

It's not useless at all. Even if you never fight in stealth, which you absolutely can still do if you pick the right powers and feats, you should still be using it every opportunity to boost the effect of an encounter power. Lashing Strike should be cast from Stealth every chance you get for the guaranteed critical.

werealchemist

rkv13 wrote: »

It's not useless at all. Even if you never fight in stealth, which you absolutely can still do if you pick the right powers and feats, you should still be using it every opportunity to boost the effect of an encounter power. Lashing Strike should be cast from Stealth every chance you get for the guaranteed critical.

I think you must be ever so slightly confused. I'm not saying the sneak mechanic its self is useless, I'm saying the bonus (feat/perk whatever it is) of +10% movement speed (changed from +25% extra damage) is useless.

mutepoint1

The sneak attack class feature?

What I dislike about it, is that you get an ability that modifies stealth.... Before you can stealth! That makes no sense.

First strike gives slight bonus damage to attacks for 6 seconds after leaving stealth. I think this should be what sneak attack does. Give it while in stealth, and for 6 seconds after, and it would be perfect.