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salvyo
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 13 Arc User
Funny… it occurred to me while reading some Thomas Paine, that he understood why all the new modern MMORPG’s fail.
“Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.”
- Thomas Paine
Even though he was speaking of “liberty” and not “J-Boots” the principle remains the same – all the fun gameplay, awesome graphics, and great story really does mean jack-**** without some well placed “suck” to give the “great” some value.
The fact of the matter is, modern MMO’s give you everything. The development houses have twisted themselves into pretzels trying to completely removed all of “the suck.” They’ve caved to every whine, every demand, every preening troll and *****y quitter, to the point that modern MMORPG’s basically hold the player’s hand like a wet-nurse shepherding a three-year old to their potty-chair.
The problem is, “the suck” is what gave value to a treasure, a character, or a conquest. They game companies have tried to banish with all of “the suck” when they should have been BALANCING “the suck” to commiserate with the rewards.
“The suck” is like a spice. Add too much, and you have the Final Fantasy MMO’s, where raid bosses can take 50+ hours and teams of hundreds to kill. Add to little of “the suck” and your players won’t appreciate anything they have – and they will leave in droves once they’ve devoured the content. Like Star Wars: The Old Republic. Or Failhammer. Or the current incarnations of WoW which are bleeding subscribers at a rate that can’t have the blizzard folks feeling very secure in their jobs…
Just as Paine said: “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.”
In the MMO heyday, the best equipment, the toughest monsters, and the most prized quests were difficult to obtain. Players had to work hard, and spend large amounts of time to achieve these things. Their personal arsenals, their wealth, and their victories gained value because of “the suck” involved in earning them. Nowadays however, rewards are tossed out like candy at a July 4th parade. Simply logging into some games after inactivity results in levels gained. Top flight gear is thrown to players with little effort, and challenging encounters have been castrated, in the name of appeasing a small minority that whines very, VERY loudly.
A player that truly put effort into their character, equipment, and fortune, will feel attached to it. It becomes valuable, it becomes a “possession.” They are not easily nudged away from it. That effort, “the suck,” keeps them shackled to a game, and paying those monthly fees. Bad defines good – and gives it meaning. The most recent additions to the MMORPG market have forgotten this, and without “the suck” properly balanced into gameplay, all the pretty graphics, glorious music, awesome game-play, and perfect voice-acting won’t keep the players around.
Those nights where a player smashes a keyboard against his desk until the keys come flying off are what makes killing the source of that “rage” worthwhile. Spending hours on a long and difficult quest, getting slain countless times, only to finally succeed, turns a collection of 1′s and 0′s with a cheesy thumbnail graphic into a precious treasure. Piles of Gold and Platinum in a bank-vault have value only because the player spent scores of hours repetitively crafting Bandages or Pastries to earn that money.
“The suck” needs to be a part of an MMO, or the player has zero personal investment, and zero reason to stick around.
Found this on a guild website and its a perfect explanation as to why MMO's are going to **** and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM FAIL to become a monster hit nowadays! Please Cryptic, take this and use it...because what brought MMO's to the forefront of pc gaming was its foundations which were built on challenge.
“Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.”
- Thomas Paine
Even though he was speaking of “liberty” and not “J-Boots” the principle remains the same – all the fun gameplay, awesome graphics, and great story really does mean jack-**** without some well placed “suck” to give the “great” some value.
The fact of the matter is, modern MMO’s give you everything. The development houses have twisted themselves into pretzels trying to completely removed all of “the suck.” They’ve caved to every whine, every demand, every preening troll and *****y quitter, to the point that modern MMORPG’s basically hold the player’s hand like a wet-nurse shepherding a three-year old to their potty-chair.
The problem is, “the suck” is what gave value to a treasure, a character, or a conquest. They game companies have tried to banish with all of “the suck” when they should have been BALANCING “the suck” to commiserate with the rewards.
“The suck” is like a spice. Add too much, and you have the Final Fantasy MMO’s, where raid bosses can take 50+ hours and teams of hundreds to kill. Add to little of “the suck” and your players won’t appreciate anything they have – and they will leave in droves once they’ve devoured the content. Like Star Wars: The Old Republic. Or Failhammer. Or the current incarnations of WoW which are bleeding subscribers at a rate that can’t have the blizzard folks feeling very secure in their jobs…
Just as Paine said: “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.”
In the MMO heyday, the best equipment, the toughest monsters, and the most prized quests were difficult to obtain. Players had to work hard, and spend large amounts of time to achieve these things. Their personal arsenals, their wealth, and their victories gained value because of “the suck” involved in earning them. Nowadays however, rewards are tossed out like candy at a July 4th parade. Simply logging into some games after inactivity results in levels gained. Top flight gear is thrown to players with little effort, and challenging encounters have been castrated, in the name of appeasing a small minority that whines very, VERY loudly.
A player that truly put effort into their character, equipment, and fortune, will feel attached to it. It becomes valuable, it becomes a “possession.” They are not easily nudged away from it. That effort, “the suck,” keeps them shackled to a game, and paying those monthly fees. Bad defines good – and gives it meaning. The most recent additions to the MMORPG market have forgotten this, and without “the suck” properly balanced into gameplay, all the pretty graphics, glorious music, awesome game-play, and perfect voice-acting won’t keep the players around.
Those nights where a player smashes a keyboard against his desk until the keys come flying off are what makes killing the source of that “rage” worthwhile. Spending hours on a long and difficult quest, getting slain countless times, only to finally succeed, turns a collection of 1′s and 0′s with a cheesy thumbnail graphic into a precious treasure. Piles of Gold and Platinum in a bank-vault have value only because the player spent scores of hours repetitively crafting Bandages or Pastries to earn that money.
“The suck” needs to be a part of an MMO, or the player has zero personal investment, and zero reason to stick around.
Found this on a guild website and its a perfect explanation as to why MMO's are going to **** and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM FAIL to become a monster hit nowadays! Please Cryptic, take this and use it...because what brought MMO's to the forefront of pc gaming was its foundations which were built on challenge.
Stay Classy.....NEVERWINTER!
Post edited by salvyo on
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The best part is that when you look back at some of these games (the j-boots seems to imply Everquest), you hardly ever remember the suck, you just tend to remember all the good parts.
That has to be worth something?
Maybe I just suck as a gamer. Perhaps I'm not worthy. But if I hit a point in a game where I start to struggle. I don't see it as a chance to get better. I see it as the point I go to look for another game.
The challenge is not balancing the "suck" the challenge is finding a happy medium between two vastly different player expectations.
Even as a casual gamer i can honestly say something earned means a hell of a lot more than something given.
I have a job, a wife, and a life, and no time for games with "suck" and when you grow up you will probably find that you are in the same position.
Realm of the Demiurge Foundry Works
Neverwinter isn't D&D, it is a MMO based on a game that uses D&D terms but isn't really D&D either. NW is fun (for that matter so is 4E), but it isn't D&D, and once you wrap your expectations around that you will be able to enjoy the game for what it offers and not worry about what it does not.
Yes, adding more of "the suck" will get you some players that will stick around until the end of time. But the vast majority do not enjoy it as WoW undeniably proved when it came out.
So todays developers will allways go with pleasing the vast majority.
And like someone else said, Everquest is still runing and it has like... what 15 expansions now?
If what you wrote in the OP is true, do you ever wonder why you still don't play EQ?
The wonder and awe delivered by a game where death is always just around the corner cannot be overstated. Even the most basic things like traveling from one city to another required work, skill, and learning. Anything even remotely difficult required teamwork.
I haven't had this feeling playing an MMO since EQ, though launch-era WoW at least offered glimpses of it in the high level instances. For whatever reason, and I suspect it's something to do with what the original poster has said, I suspect that we will never see this kind of thing emerge in an MMO again. I never had a chance to try Vanguard, though I heard it was meant to recapture some of that spirit, I don't know if it was successful.
In modern MMOs the leveling process is meaningless. You just do it as quickly as possible and that's that. That is a great loss, I think. In EQ, some of the things you would get while leveling were just as relevant and important at higher levels. Jboots, FBSS, etc. Make leveling matter again, make lower level dungeons difficult yet also the best source of exp and loot that maintains relevance even at level cap, and I think MMOs would be vastly improved.
Realm of the Demiurge Foundry Works
Neverwinter isn't D&D, it is a MMO based on a game that uses D&D terms but isn't really D&D either. NW is fun (for that matter so is 4E), but it isn't D&D, and once you wrap your expectations around that you will be able to enjoy the game for what it offers and not worry about what it does not.
I've read some whoppers of delusions on gaming boards, but that takes the cake.
Kids, when adults try to tell you that their video games were better because they were "hard", just laugh and remind them that sitting on your fat butt, twiddling some buttons with your fingers for hours while stuffing junk food in your maw, isn't even remotely "hard" and is the complete antithesis of the genuine work ethic that builds real self esteem.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
In it's hayday EQ was fine. So were 1986 Jeep Wranglers which required manual switch over for four wheel drive with a lock & pin. Yes, it was fine back then but this isn't "back then". I'll take a push button conversion over the old lock & key any day.
And no I don't appreciate the older wranglers any more because they were harder to maintain or operate.
**** that. Been there done that bought the t-shirt.
Well, some people have empty, meaningless lives and think that sitting at their computer for over 12 hours killing the same monster again and again and again and again in hopes that the really rare dingus of power drops as loot would be a significant accomplishment to brag about.
Realm of the Demiurge Foundry Works
Neverwinter isn't D&D, it is a MMO based on a game that uses D&D terms but isn't really D&D either. NW is fun (for that matter so is 4E), but it isn't D&D, and once you wrap your expectations around that you will be able to enjoy the game for what it offers and not worry about what it does not.
But bragging about a loot you got in 12 minutes with zero effort makes your life rich and full? Especially for young people learning skills like teamwork and concepts like risk/reward are good things. Yes it would be better if they learned them in say sports. But its better than learning everything is free and easy if you just show up. Where is the fun in that anyway?
1.) "Bragging" about anything you do online is absurd.
2.) Your definition of fun is not all encompassing. You enjoy grinding & coordinated large scale PvE content which results in a small chance for reward? There's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of games out there that suit your desire. This is not one of them.
I don't like Dubstep. That's fine. What you don't see is me posting on Skrillex's website demanding he make his music more bubble gum pop to satisfy my tastes. I simply don't listen to him. Likewise I'm not writing strongly worded letters to WotC demanding that Ed Greenwood write his next book more in the style of Stephen King. Nor am I petitioning Ford Motors to make their newest line of pick up trucks into Mustang hybrids because I don't like trucks.
Are you picking up what I'm putting down or do I need to lay it on thicker?
1, nothing wrong with being proud of something you've done well. Or even just good fortune.
2, where did I spell out my definition of fun? I said games like this should be based around teamwork and meeting challenges. Some people taking such an offense and putting so many words in others mouths. This thread is about people wanting a level of difficulty and challenge instead of a loot pinata game. Which there are for sure PLENTY of out there. So you go play one ok?
Which is exactly what I implied.
I take no offense, offer none in return and put no "words in your mouth."
Or, now hear me out, I can play this one.
My solution is simple, play the game that was designed. Your solution is not, play the game after it's content and/or mechanics have been redesigned to suit the tastes of an audience it wasn't intended for. Which do you think the developers will cater to, hmm?
I can understand disagreeing with a mechanic, a quest line or other details about a game but arguing against the gameplay is an exercise in futility. Especially in regards to a game using a F2P model. Neverwinter isn't going to magically turn into the experience you want. You can either enjoy it for what it is or you can move on. Which is exactly what the appeal is for F2P games.
There's a reason that sentence ended with a question mark. Look, I can school you in the finer points of the English language but I simply don't have the time or the patience. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Suggesting that the developers should redesign their entire loot table, gear/level progression and story line sequence to suit the tastes of a minority shows how little you "actually understand".
Look, you're clearly more emotionally invested in this topic than I am given your increasingly heated responses so I'll just bow out before someone snaps. I simply don't care. I know what the game is and accept it for what it is. You don't. That's fine. All I'll say is...
Good luck with that.
For me, the game has never been the focus, it's always been about the people I've played with. Fraternity brothers, family, coworkers, etc. but never for the love of the game alone.
I may have enjoyed WoW as a game at one point (and I've been playing it since May 2005), but the only reason I still pay the $15 a month is because I know that a group of 9 other people depend on me to show up and do my job every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Sunday night (aka raid nights). I log on for those 12-14 hours and maybe 1 or 2 more to farm potions, flasks, and food buffs for said nights. I would PvP, but I dislike how gear-oriented WoW PvP is, so I play Planetside 2 to get my fix.
I doubt anyone in my raid group actually likes playing the game, else they would log on for more than raid and to cap arena points. When it's not a raid day there are maybe 2 people online and no one is on mumble. Raid night there are usually 10 on both, but (again) only during raid time.
I've personally been trying to escape WoW for a long time, but the one thing that keeps me chained to it is the responsibility I feel to show up for raid so that others can have fun (if they even do anymore). I'm actually starting to think most of the mid-level progression guilds are the same; that all the players only show up to raid for the sake of the rest of the team. Who knows?
In my experience, it's always been the human element that kept me in WoW. I've met a lot of great people via WoW, hell I've even written music for, and attended, some of their weddings.
This all leads me to believe that people, in my circle at least, will play the games that their friends play. The true amount of enjoyment they are getting from it can be judged by how much they play. If they play together all the time, are constantly on VOIP, and playing more than just for raid, that's a good indication that the game is fun for them to play. If they log on for raid and then disappear, it's pretty clear that they're not having fun and just logging on out of courtesy for the people they play with.
"Your definition of fun is not all
"There are plenty of games out there that suit your desire. This is not one of them."
Where are the question marks here? You got caught making wild assumptions. Keep "schooling" me though. Then again you can divine emotion from text. So I'm clearly outmatched here.
Please do me the the humble honor of pointing out where I suggested this "redesign their entire loot table, gear/level progression and story line sequence". Or show your data to support your claims of "minority". Feel free to correct any grammar mistakes. Or whatever else you need to do.
I've been playing MMOs since the first EQ expansion, though not nearly so much the last 5 years, but EQ was without a doubt the hardest of them. You seem to imply that work ethic can only be applied to or learned from physical labor, which I couldn't disagree with more. Just because you sit on your *** doesn't mean you can't work hard or be focused on your craft - plenty of MMO players do just that. Is it worth anything, does it forge your character? Who's to say, probably not, but certainly not any less than the work ethic your boss forces upon you so you don't lose your job stacking boxes in a warehouse.
The point is, people look for challenges in different places, and it's just as legitimate finding it in video games as it is finding it anywhere else.
I do have to disagree with many of your (and other's) comments on EQ though. First of all, the challenge in EQ was not a result of the grind, it was the result of the game being so deadly. To me, that is the source of almost all of the difficulty, fun, and reward that I got from EQ. There were a million ways to die in almost every zone, and dying had consequences. That made the game a challenge.
As to the grinds, I have less memories of them, and that's probably because they were miserable. I'm not a fan of grinds, especially mindless ones. I can also say that grinds are not all created equally. The only Korean MMO I've played, TERA, was an absolute nightmare, instantly living up to the Korean RNG grind reputation, and I learned that there are exceedingly good reasons for people to hate those types of systems. Apparently it's a cultural thing, the MMO market in Korea likes mindless grinds. It's beyond my comprehension how they could possibly enjoy that.
All I'm saying is, I would love to see a difficult MMO. Not just an MMO with hard raid bosses, but a game that is genuinely dangerous throughout. I understand your jeep analogy and recognize its legitimacy, but I do think there is a significant difference between annoyances being eliminated and difficulty being done away with entirely. I haven't played a difficult MMO where I felt remotely in danger in the world in a long time. They seem to get easier and easier, and to me, that's a shame, although I'm sure there is a financial explanation for it like with everything else.
People do have different tastes though
All I want to say is that it is much easier to play now in many modern MMO's, and I like a lot of them.
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