GWF Role (Redux)

rkv13

So as of BW4 how would you describe the GWF's role?

Are they still the AoE Defender, or have they been made into more of a Striker? The decision to move Wicked Strike from 1st level to 5th tier lead me to believe the devs want GWF's more single-target dps capable, and less AoE meat grinders.

I know the GWF got majorly nerfed, and I have no idea why because they honestly seemed a little under-powered even in BW3. I suspect the devs figured their AoE damage was too stronk and they tried to reel that back, but didn't buff their single-target damage or survivability enough to compensate.

silknight

I asked for this clarification in another thread, I do agree that we need them to come out and tell us what their vision of this class is, I for one don't want to roll a half***ed Tank/Attack combo that excels at neither, but I don't mind a class that could choose it's roll as Defender or Striker. I'm hoping that's what the case is. Then it just comes down to balancing the class properly, and one I'll gladly give the devs time to do so long as I can play the role I desire. My worst fears are that they start as a bad hybrid and either stay as one, or get changed into a pure defender with off attack roll. Those are standard bait and switch tactics I've seen some devs do in other games, and it would <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off to no end if it happened here.

elspethtirelnw

I'm only going to approach this from what I am attempting to accomplish, as the class can fill more than one role in theory.

As for a Sentinel (backup tank, defender, or whatever term you'd prefer to use), it is a very statistically viable role to fill. If built correctly, the path can provide great mitigation while still retaining some offensive capability. The problem: currently the class is incapable of properly generating threat. I made that point very clear in the following thread: here

I'll let someone else address DPS builds.

voidwatcherx

I pretty much agree with what espethtirelnw said. There is the possibility of the GWF of being a defender purely. But they need to address quite a few issues before this comes to function properly.

kimonagi

Really wish i would have played group content to see how it plays out as DPS. Then again, i'm not as obsessed as others in winning the damage charts. If i find that i have been usefull to a group its enough for me.

voidwatcherx

kimonagi wrote: »

Really wish i would have played group content to see how it plays out as DPS. Then again, i'm not as obsessed as others in winning the damage charts. If i find that i have been usefull to a group its enough for me.

And that is ALWAYS how you should view it. Any others are too busy stroking their ego.

silknight

voidwatcherx wrote: »

And that is ALWAYS how you should view it. Any others are too busy stroking their ego.

I guess competition amongst team mates to push them to excel is an ego stroke. I guess trying to compete with other dps and coming up short consistently shouldn't matter, and all I should care about is having been in group. Yup. [/sarcasm]

voidwatcherx

silknight wrote: »

I guess competition amongst team mates to push them to excel is an ego stroke. I guess trying to compete with other dps and coming up short consistently shouldn't matter, and all I should care about is having been in group. Yup. [/sarcasm]

Exactly. All the sarcasm you desire. Because I got loads of that currency. I do understand the want for competition and the feel that you have contributed to the group. But hopefully they will fix the issues that are circulating around the GWF.

silknight

voidwatcherx wrote: »

Exactly. All the sarcasm you desire. Because I got load of that currency.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people play to RP, some people play for PvE, some play to PvP, some people play to compete, and some people play for the sake of it. When you push your beliefs on others and disregard others opinions is when you become close minded. I don't mind tanks tanking or people playing this class as a pure defender. But it was advertised as a damage based class, and that's what I expect to get, until told otherwise by development, that's why all the calls for clarification. I just don't want to be lead astray by initial descriptions of the class and it becoming something entirely different, nor do I want the class to be mediocre at it's available roles compared to other similar classes. It's happened before, and then the community becomes vitriol because of bait and switch or poor development. People hop around and play the flavor of the month classes. I hate those kinds of games, I'd rather nip it in the bud now, then deal with it down the line.

voidwatcherx

silknight wrote: »

Different strokes for different folks. Some people play to RP, some people play for PvE, some play to PvP, some people play to compete, and some people play for the sake of it. When you push your beliefs on others and disregard others opinions is when you become close minded. I don't mind tanks tanking or people playing this class as a pure defender. But it was advertised as a damage based class, and that's what I expect to get, until told otherwise by development, that's why all the calls for clarification. I just don't want to be lead astray by initial descriptions of the class and it becoming something entirely different, nor do I want the class to be mediocre at it's available roles compared to other similar classes. It's happened before, and then the community becomes vitriol because of bait and switch or poor development. People hop around and play the flavor of the month classes. I hate those kinds of games, I'd rather nip it in the bud now, then deal with it down the line.

Exactly! No need for"[/sarcasm] " then. Each to his own. I RP, I PVP, I PVE. The "[/sarcasm]" Helps NOTHING at all. I agree the class could use a bit of fixing early levels but the small-minded act needs to be dropped.

silknight

I'll save the sarcasm next time, so don't be so quick to insult next time. And hopefully the thread can get back on track.

voidwatcherx

silknight wrote: »

I'll save the sarcasm next time, so don't be so quick to insult next time. And hopefully the thread can get back on track.

I'd say likewise but it 's probably a waste of effort.

roninthehood

GWF has never been a defender. As of right now it is the same class as it was in BW3... it is just...weaker. GWF is suppost to be AoE striker( DD= damage dealer.. striker is such a dumb word for a DD class) GWF needs a 15% increase acrossed the board and that is to just be where it should be with the other class. minus the rogue which is way to much damage and needs to be brought down 15%. then in mho the classes will be perfect all of them.

GWF = AOE med dps. , some cc, some threat , some survival.

argantis

I see three basic roles.

Offensive: These builds will focus on the Destroyer or Instigator paths. The destroyer has more damage potential but must use WMS and Reaping Strike to achieve it. The Instigator is a more simple play style and will lose damage if they ever have threat. They are intended more for PvP but can be viable AoE and single target damage in PvE IMO. Instigator builds will focus on Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage.

Defensive: The sentinel line is fully capable of not only add tanking, but IMO main tanking, depending on how you focus in that line.

Hybrid: These builds will be mainly for PvP because while they may have some more defense and control elements, they likely will be Instigators and not Sentinels. There just is no way to manage threat without the Sentinel feats.

So lets sum it up here.

Destroyer: Full on PvE damage. Uses WMS and Reaping strike to feature their damage and has a complex play style.

Sentinel: Defenders with full on marking, threat, and a ton of damage avoidance and some mitigation.

Instigator: Alternate PvE damage path that uses Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage. Intended for PvP but can hold up in PvE well enough.

Oh and all builds have control in them. More control than anything that is not a Control Wizard.

In simple terms the GWF is a Defender / Controller hybrid class that can fill different roles depending on how they are built or played. Because of this fact many players will get confused along the way and make a bad mix of Ability, Power, and Feat choices that really do not achieve any of the intended roles well. Because of this, the GWF is the most complex class to play and build properly. It is a class with a lot of choices and those choices can result in some pretty bad end game characters.

I know this because I made a horrible build my first time going to 47. In my second go round I made a lot better choices in going from 1 to 50, but I also made some errors and ultimately was far from a proper character. GWF will earn Cryptic more Zen in respec tokens than any other class, hands down.

elspethtirelnw

argantis wrote: »

I see three basic roles.

Offensive: These builds will focus on the Destroyer or Instigator paths. The destroyer has more damage potential but must use WMS and Reaping Strike to achieve it. The Instigator is a more simple play style and will lose damage if they ever have threat. They are intended more for PvP but can be viable AoE and single target damage in PvE IMO. Instigator builds will focus on Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage.

Defensive: The sentinel line is fully capable of not only add tanking, but IMO main tanking, depending on how you focus in that line.

Hybrid: These builds will be mainly for PvP because while they may have some more defense and control elements, they likely will be Instigators and not Sentinels. There just is no way to manage threat without the Sentinel feats.

So lets sum it up here.

Destroyer: Full on PvE damage. Uses WMS and Reaping strike to feature their damage and has a complex play style.

Sentinel: Defenders with full on marking, threat, and a ton of damage avoidance and some mitigation.

Instigator: Alternate PvE damage path that uses Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage. Intended for PvP but can hold up in PvE well enough.

Oh and all builds have control in them. More control than anything that is not a Control Wizard.

In simple terms the GWF is a Defender / Controller hybrid class that can fill different roles depending on how they are built or played. Because of this fact many players will get confused along the way and make a bad mix of Ability, Power, and Feat choices that really do not achieve any of the intended roles well. Because of this, the GWF is the most complex class to play and build properly. It is a class with a lot of choices and those choices can result in some pretty bad end game characters.

I know this because I made a horrible build my first time going to 47. In my second go round I made a lot better choices in going from 1 to 50, but I also made some errors and ultimately was far from a proper character. GWF will earn Cryptic more Zen in respec tokens than any other class, hands down.

I think this just about sums things up very well... that is... as soon as they fix some of the issues that are holding the class back from achieving the roles as you described. I hope that what you summarized is in fact the goal in mind for this class. I also agree that a lot of people are confused or have too narrow of a vision for the class at this time.

I guess we'll know more when the 25th comes about... I still feel a bit unsettled.

lucienirenicus

I'm nervous about this class as well.

Overwhelmingly it's the class I *want* to play, but it's not really as fun when the defining characteristic of the class appears to have been nerfed. Rogues are the masters of single target DPS (and are incredibly efficient at it despite being a little squishy), GF's do plenty of AOE themselves from the get-go and are the armored tank class, complete with taunts. GWF feels like a hybrid which excels at neither.

Plus, I'm not super hardcore PvP but I'd like to participate and contribute... and right now a GWF is the easiest target on the field.

llelowyn13

I found the GWF more fun to play than the rogue, thus I will be starting with that class. I agree, not a lot of tolerability on the PvP field for GWF, and honestly I loved playing PvP in this game more than most other games. I think they need to crunch some numbers on the GWF nerf though. Mail should mitigate a lot more damage than the squishies, yet it hardly mitigates any.
I'm HOPING it was some bug the devs overlooked by globally changing values. The damage values need to be managed in a pve-is-not-pvp mindset. Different values vs players than against NPCs; this goes true for all classes, or else people from one side of the fence or the other will complain about balance and OP classes.

silknight

argantis wrote: »

I see three basic roles.

Offensive: These builds will focus on the Destroyer or Instigator paths. The destroyer has more damage potential but must use WMS and Reaping Strike to achieve it. The Instigator is a more simple play style and will lose damage if they ever have threat. They are intended more for PvP but can be viable AoE and single target damage in PvE IMO. Instigator builds will focus on Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage.

Defensive: The sentinel line is fully capable of not only add tanking, but IMO main tanking, depending on how you focus in that line.

Hybrid: These builds will be mainly for PvP because while they may have some more defense and control elements, they likely will be Instigators and not Sentinels. There just is no way to manage threat without the Sentinel feats.

So lets sum it up here.

Destroyer: Full on PvE damage. Uses WMS and Reaping strike to feature their damage and has a complex play style.

Sentinel: Defenders with full on marking, threat, and a ton of damage avoidance and some mitigation.

Instigator: Alternate PvE damage path that uses Wicked Strike and Combat Advantage. Intended for PvP but can hold up in PvE well enough.

Oh and all builds have control in them. More control than anything that is not a Control Wizard.

In simple terms the GWF is a Defender / Controller hybrid class that can fill different roles depending on how they are built or played. Because of this fact many players will get confused along the way and make a bad mix of Ability, Power, and Feat choices that really do not achieve any of the intended roles well. Because of this, the GWF is the most complex class to play and build properly. It is a class with a lot of choices and those choices can result in some pretty bad end game characters.

I know this because I made a horrible build my first time going to 47. In my second go round I made a lot better choices in going from 1 to 50, but I also made some errors and ultimately was far from a proper character. GWF will earn Cryptic more Zen in respec tokens than any other class, hands down.

Very well thought out. And I agree with many of your points. Control wise there is lots of potential. Damage wise there is still balancing that's needed. My personal beef with the class was mainly due to the excessive damage tweak. Unneeded at the lower levels, maybe better thought out at the upper levels. Also I hate the sword masters weapon master strike, which is evident from nearly all my posts. I dislike the slow clunky feel of it, and the bad synergy with having to feat to maximize it's damage potential, and even then have to constantly refresh it in between my attacks and different abilities. If it was just wicked strike with a more passive trait than it's current form i may tolerate it. It's slow, the animation is dull,and I could go on, but I just plain don't like it's current iteration. But that's not to say there won't be a different ability with an axe or mace path. If they do decide to build on that bad mechanic in Sword masters builds, here's hoping it doesn't migrate to an axe or mace master. But I'd love some clarification in the direction, until then all anybody can do is speculate, and that's where a lot of the current head butting is coming from.

argantis

silknight wrote: »

Very well thought out. And I agree with many of your points. Control wise there is lots of potential. Damage wise there is still balancing that's needed. My personal beef with the class was mainly due to the excessive damage tweak. Unneeded at the lower levels, maybe better thought out at the upper levels. Also I hate the sword masters weapon master strike, which is evident from nearly all my posts. I dislike the slow clunky feel of it, and the bad synergy with having to feat to maximize it's damage potential, and even then have to constantly refresh it in between my attacks and different abilities. If it was just wicked strike with a more passive trait than it's current form i may tolerate it. It's slow, the animation is dull,and I could go on, but I just plain don't like it's current iteration. But that's not to say there won't be a different ability with an axe or mace path. If they do decide to build on that bad mechanic in Sword masters builds, here's hoping it doesn't migrate to an axe or mace master. But I'd love some clarification in the direction, until then all anybody can do is speculate, and that's where a lot of the current head butting is coming from.

The first swing on WMS is very slow, but every swing after that is far faster than Wicked Strike. The other benefit of WMS is that second hit from behind, it always gets combat advantage.

silknight

argantis wrote: »

The first swing on WMS is very slow, but every swing after that is far faster than Wicked Strike. The other benefit of WMS is that second hit from behind, it always gets combat advantage.

It may be a bit faster with the next swing, but I don't usually use it more than once when I did try to play with it. I just don't like it. It's one of those things that I just can't explain perfectly. It may seem a little obstinate, but to me it doesn't fit, and I don't think there is any way anyone can make me accept it's current form. Silly, maybe, but there is room for improvement, and this is the one move I'd love to see fixed more than any, everything else just needs tweaking. And they need to bring back reaver, that's a must move for me, it's what attracted me to this class in the first place.