test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
The Rogue Problem
guyris1
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
First, I'd like to say - I played the rogue more than any other class in beta and absolutely loved it.
Here is the biggest problem I found with Rogues.
In the hands of a good player, the damage was quite amazing. In the hands of a bad player, the damage was bad. That's pretty much the general rule for any class. If you don't learn your class, or play it to the fullest you will always be average or below average.
In the first "Tower" dungeon, the damage numbers I produced were quite large compared to one other rogue and one other GWF. I was sitting at about 300k damage, while the other Rogue and GWF were about 100-110k. Watching them both play, I really felt they weren't very skilled. My reaction time was better and my ability use was superior. At some points during the fights they did nothing for at least 5-10 seconds. At the end of it, the GWF complained about my dps. Which I imagine he posted some where on this forum
The second tower dungeon run I was with two GWF. While I still beat them, it was by a smaller margin, about 50k. My theory as to why my output was higher, I played a lot more aggressive to be number 1. I often pulled in front of the tank, and made sure I used my dagger toss on the weaker enemies, killing them before the GWF could benefit from AOE killing them, potentially blocking their damage output. Knowing full well that I could out dps them on single targets. I'm competitive, :P
The first PVP match I played, I absolutely dominated. Top kills, which was about 15-20 more than the next highest, lowest deaths, most points earned etc. I really felt - "wow, this class may be a bit over powered." However, the second PVP match, I didn't do nearly as well. While I still did good, I was countered constantly, and had a hard time challenging the other players which were clearly better players. It felt almost perfect.
Anyways, here is the main issue that I see with the Rogue class. If they nerf the class significantly, the less skilled players will quite possibly be below the average, while the good players will maintain a considerable advantage. You can't balance skill, and I really feel like the Rogue has more potential for higher dps using a very precise rotation. I've played the other classes, but I didn't enjoy them as much as Rogues so I didn't take the time to try and master them, so I can't be 100% certain about that statement. I do know, most of the rogues I grouped with weren't using stealth off cool down to get the guaranteed critical damage.
How about you? Did you dominate the damage numbers? Did they seem to vary based on the skill of the group you were with? All of these I feel are really important. The rogue has weaknesses, just like the other classes do - I don't believe much of a nerf is in order. If anything, a boost to some of the other classes to have perhaps a better more effective rotation might be in order.
Here is the biggest problem I found with Rogues.
In the hands of a good player, the damage was quite amazing. In the hands of a bad player, the damage was bad. That's pretty much the general rule for any class. If you don't learn your class, or play it to the fullest you will always be average or below average.
In the first "Tower" dungeon, the damage numbers I produced were quite large compared to one other rogue and one other GWF. I was sitting at about 300k damage, while the other Rogue and GWF were about 100-110k. Watching them both play, I really felt they weren't very skilled. My reaction time was better and my ability use was superior. At some points during the fights they did nothing for at least 5-10 seconds. At the end of it, the GWF complained about my dps. Which I imagine he posted some where on this forum
The second tower dungeon run I was with two GWF. While I still beat them, it was by a smaller margin, about 50k. My theory as to why my output was higher, I played a lot more aggressive to be number 1. I often pulled in front of the tank, and made sure I used my dagger toss on the weaker enemies, killing them before the GWF could benefit from AOE killing them, potentially blocking their damage output. Knowing full well that I could out dps them on single targets. I'm competitive, :PThe first PVP match I played, I absolutely dominated. Top kills, which was about 15-20 more than the next highest, lowest deaths, most points earned etc. I really felt - "wow, this class may be a bit over powered." However, the second PVP match, I didn't do nearly as well. While I still did good, I was countered constantly, and had a hard time challenging the other players which were clearly better players. It felt almost perfect.
Anyways, here is the main issue that I see with the Rogue class. If they nerf the class significantly, the less skilled players will quite possibly be below the average, while the good players will maintain a considerable advantage. You can't balance skill, and I really feel like the Rogue has more potential for higher dps using a very precise rotation. I've played the other classes, but I didn't enjoy them as much as Rogues so I didn't take the time to try and master them, so I can't be 100% certain about that statement. I do know, most of the rogues I grouped with weren't using stealth off cool down to get the guaranteed critical damage.
How about you? Did you dominate the damage numbers? Did they seem to vary based on the skill of the group you were with? All of these I feel are really important. The rogue has weaknesses, just like the other classes do - I don't believe much of a nerf is in order. If anything, a boost to some of the other classes to have perhaps a better more effective rotation might be in order.
Post edited by guyris1 on
0
Comments
Using a system like this - where the players have a choice on what skills to bring in - can be hard to balance. Well, hard to balance against players who complain someone is doing more damage than them, without understanding why.
Every class should benefit dramatically from player skill. Rewarding skill is what makes games interesting. I hope the Devs won't ruin their success in designing a Rogue class that fits that objective by nerfing it indiscriminately, and will instead find ways to similarly reward skill with other classes.
This is a good point, that balance is in equivalent effectiveness, not just same DPS.
And, actually, Bait and Switch is useful for DPS anyway, since it nearly doubles the length of stealth (and there are a lot of damage bonuses available while stealthed).
And also, Bait and Switch could be reserved for solo use, and swapped out with a pure DPS ability for grouping up. You're forced to spend points on more than you can slot at any one moment.
Roninthehood - I'm just not seeing it. I have never seen a bad rogue be top dps in BW3 or 4. And I've played a CW, GWF, and the TR quite a bit. Going afk for even 5 seconds, or lagging behind the tank on pulls, can be quite costly to dps. Rogue isn't perfect, but it does feel powerful. But I think that's because of the lack of tactics the other classes have. GWF especially their base AT-Will power feels incredibly lacking. It's slow, and doesn't do much more damage than the Guardian's cleave.
Gear?
Skills used, rotation etc?
Feats?
Did they play their class to the fullest? (I.E. the GWF attacking a single target instead of a group of targets)
Seriously guys, Do you think even a significant portion of people playing a beta weekend that kept their gear up to level and knew what the hell they were doing in 2 days was enough to make a good assessment to class balance?
I absolutely love the rogue and not because they do great single target damage, but because it was fun. I had the most fun killing level 60 Duergar grouped with a Control Wizard and Devoted Cleric and found that they were rocking out the damage. they didn't even need me, but we all had fun.
This. Only with information from hundreds of group instances, spread across all different level tiers, would I make statements about what % of damage rogues currently are above the next highest class....
So, without that information (which i hope cryptic has), all we can say is, does it seem like rogues are fulfilling their role?
Yes, yes they are.
I have a problem with this statement. Decoy is more than just utility, it extends your stealth duration. While in stealth, you generate a boat load more action points, and have free combat advantage. The dummy itself generates action points when it gets hit, and it's VERY easy to make sure it gets hit. Thirdly, he actually will take the heat off you when you pull aggro out of stealth, allowing you to duck behind a mob and get combat advantage, or let your stealth bar regenerate faster because you're not getting an axe to the face.
If I spend twice as much time in stealth as you I'm going to do more damage than you.
I don't know about hundreds, but I definately participated in dozens of dungeons and skirmishes, all the way up to, and at level 50. It should be a rule that people are absolutely not allowed to post opinions on this forum till they have hit at LEAST level 30.
I encountered so many terrible players of every class, but when I did come across equal geared/skilled players, the disparity between classes isn't as outrageous as the common player would have you believe.
By the time everyone has played through the Open Beta and into release, I'm sure everyone will know what's going on as far as rotation and skills in general. At least by then the more experienced players will be able to help out the newbies with tips/videos and what not.
As far as damage/utility skills go, that kind of customisation is one of my fav parts of this game. You will most likely always have a different skill set for PVP and PVE. Some dungeon bosses may require you to go ALL damage because the fight is pretty straight forward as far as strategy goes. But then some fights you will have to switch to utility skills such as the decoy, so you can help control the ridiculous amount of adds.
All in all I think the best thing about the system right now is the lack of cookie cutter build possibility. This might change further down the track but I'm hoping it won't =P